Builds Trail Tailor- Custom Armor Build plus a few things

[TRAIL TAILOR]

@reevesci ; so I am showing this bumper to my son and explaining how what he's learning in geometry is applicable in real life....and he wanted to know if you actually sit down and sketch all this out, calculating the angles (and compound angles) of each cut - or are you an artist who can just "see it" in their mind and you start fabricating?

FIRST-- I loved geometry in school.... SECOND... EVERYTHING I sketch and draw changes multiple times during builds. It is the general idea, but NEVER what I originally draw.

So, I use LOTS of cardboard, razor blades, steel and cut off wheels to get it to what you see on my custom builds.

J

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

I had to take a break from the bumpers.... SO! I finished the pitched sliders.

J

 

[TonyP]

What's the mounting situation? Rivnuts or skookum high grade bolts/u-bolts?

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

What's the mounting situation? Rivnuts or skookum high grade bolts/u-bolts?

NO rivnuts. All grade 8 bolts and drill and thread cut Hilti bolts.

J

 

[TonyP]

Nice!
(I already kinda knew, just so now everyone else knows; no rivnuts!)

 

[NLScooby]

FIRST-- I loved geometry in school.... SECOND... EVERYTHING I sketch and draw changes multiple times during builds. It is the general idea, but NEVER what I originally draw.

So, I use LOTS of cardboard, razor blades, steel and cut off wheels to get it to what you see on my custom builds.

J

Cool - thanks!

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

Front is 99% done.

J

For fun....

 

[TonyP]

If those bumpers aren't a solid reason for other people to commission an expert for a one-off build I don't know what is. Saying I'm pleased about the outcome is an understatement. Can't wait to get that 200 back and run it through the paces in Canyonlands in a couple of weeks (assuming a can bribe a powdercoater to expedite the job).

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Serious questions, since I can only talk about stuff I have had my hands one. Just like seeing things from others perspective.

How is air being delivered to the stock power steering, auxiliary transmission cooler, and lower portion of the radiator?

Did you tie any supports back further in the frame? I'm not the most confident in the thin 1/8" or maybe 2mm thick plates that the bumper is bolted to. Especially since it was only designed for a 25 lbs aluminum crush bar that is definetly weaker than the frame, but that is gone now, so the frame has to deal without that crush point. Which brings me to my last question.

Did you leave a weak spot in the mounting of the bumper itself? The stock frame has dimples for crush points about 4" back of the front of the frame where the bumper bolts in to and a two large holes right behind that.

I feel like the bumper is solid, but in the event of a moderate collision, either car or animal, that the weakest point on the whole bumper and frame integration, is the frame.

 

[Markuson]

Serious questions, since I can only talk about stuff I have had my hands one. Just like seeing things from others perspective.

How is air being delivered to the stock power steering, auxiliary transmission cooler, and lower portion of the radiator?

Did you tie any supports back further in the frame? I'm not the most confident in the thin 1/8" or maybe 2mm thick plates that the bumper is bolted to. Especially since it was only designed for a 25 lbs aluminum crush bar that is definetly weaker than the frame, but that is gone now, so the frame has to deal without that crush point. Which brings me to my last question.

Did you leave a weak spot in the mounting of the bumper itself? The stock frame has dimples for crush points about 4" back of the front of the frame where the bumper bolts in to and a two large holes right behind that.

I feel like the bumper is solid, but in the event of a moderate collision, either car or animal, that the weakest point on the whole bumper and frame integration, is the frame.

That concept came up in conversation with Christo about his rear bumper, and it's a good point to consider. While you could make a bumper that is literally impervious to impact...that means the frame gives out instead of the bumper. So it's an important balance to strike. We want beefy bumpers, but the bumper needs to fail instead of the frame.

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

Serious questions, since I can only talk about stuff I have had my hands one. Just like seeing things from others perspective.

How is air being delivered to the stock power steering, auxiliary transmission cooler, and lower portion of the radiator?

Did you tie any supports back further in the frame? I'm not the most confident in the thin 1/8" or maybe 2mm thick plates that the bumper is bolted to. Especially since it was only designed for a 25 lbs aluminum crush bar that is definetly weaker than the frame, but that is gone now, so the frame has to deal without that crush point. Which brings me to my last question.

Did you leave a weak spot in the mounting of the bumper itself? The stock frame has dimples for crush points about 4" back of the front of the frame where the bumper bolts in to and a two large holes right behind that.

I feel like the bumper is solid, but in the event of a moderate collision, either car or animal, that the weakest point on the whole bumper and frame integration, is the frame.

-Holes are in the lower skid/bash plate and open on the sides of this same plate.
-No further back points. All the bumpers I've ever built tie straight to the head frame. Had many encounters with racks, deer, moose pig, and other autos and no issues. Basically same as 100 bumpers as well and they are all tied to the frame in the same fashion.
-See above
-Straight on frame hit is going to the strongest part of this bumper. The entire center section is all boxed together. even a hit on one side will have to force the energy through to the other side and both frame rails.

I'd put it against anything out there... As far as a weak frame... that is 90% of all issues with any auto on the market today. The bumper will take more than the frame for sure.

J

 

[TonyP]

Serious questions, since I can only talk about stuff I have had my hands one. Just like seeing things from others perspective.

How is air being delivered to the stock power steering, auxiliary transmission cooler, and lower portion of the radiator?

Did you tie any supports back further in the frame? I'm not the most confident in the thin 1/8" or maybe 2mm thick plates that the bumper is bolted to. Especially since it was only designed for a 25 lbs aluminum crush bar that is definetly weaker than the frame, but that is gone now, so the frame has to deal without that crush point. Which brings me to my last question.

Did you leave a weak spot in the mounting of the bumper itself? The stock frame has dimples for crush points about 4" back of the front of the frame where the bumper bolts in to and a two large holes right behind that.

I feel like the bumper is solid, but in the event of a moderate collision, either car or animal, that the weakest point on the whole bumper and frame integration, is the frame.

Airflow was a concern we spoke about. Between the grill, the added openess around the tire and some holes drilled (not pictured), we think it'll be ok but I'll keep an eye on temps in the begining.

The rest, Jason will have to comment on.

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

That concept came up in conversation with Christo about his rear bumper, and it's a good point to consider. While you could make a bumper that is literally impervious to impact...that means the frame gives out instead of the bumper. So it's an important balance to strike. We want beefy bumpers, but the bumper needs to fail instead of the frame.

I'm of the opposite persuasion. I want the bumper to take all the brunt. As far as a crumpling bumper.... Why even run one then.. It will more than likely total the grill, lights, radiator, hood, fenders, lower valance and inner supports on the cruiser. Not an issue for a 2-4 year old cruiser to absorb the insurance rework. The value to counter balance is still there. But a 5-10 year old cruiser is totaled.

A crumpling bumper is designed to soften the impact for the persons in the vehicle, not the car itself. A majority of these bumpers do exactly what they are designed to do... crumple, soften and destroy the entire front of a vehicle including the front frame... so whats the difference. For me its that I can salvage a majority of the front end and a good shop/ myself can straighten or cut in new frame ends...

J

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

 

[TonyP]

I suppose if you wanted to retain OEM-ish crumple zones and mount a winch you could just weld in a winch plate behind the OEM bumper. Then again we could all just drive a Prius and build model WWII U-Boats in our basement. Stout steel bumpers serve a slightly difference purpose from most other bumpers (aftermarket or otherwise).

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I would have to disagree, I feel that a bumper that can protect the front end of a truck from a collision, and need only a replacement bumper works for me, and my budget the best. As one of my friends said, "the bumper should die, not the truck or you."

I think we all can agree that ripping apart the stock plastic bumper cover, and replacing that, can get expensive over time. I view armor as a way to save the truck itself, and the armor sacrifices itself to do that if needed. Like on ARB bumpers, they use large crush cans to take the load of the impact, but also saving the front end of the truck and the frame, to drive back home.

But like I say, I only talk about thing I've tested.

A 5 car pile up, where I was the last one. The F-150 slammed into the car in front of him, and i went into the F-150.

What you don't see, is i impacted the bottom of the bed itself, where it is really strong.

I hit on the corner, where all bumpers are the weakest, and also where (according to DOT) most front end impacts happen, and according to Australian DOT where almost all animal strikes happen. I bought a new bumper, that was it, the bumper and crush cans took the load, saving the body and frame. Frame was laser tested, not just looking at it. This bumper also slammed sideways on a granite rock wall on the rubicon, and slammed on trails from coast to coast, so it protected during hard rock hits, but when push came to shove, it didn't damage the thing that it was suppose to protect in the first place.

Without clearance from the body, without a crush zone, I feel that if a collision happens, it could be the difference between another bumper, and another truck. But it's like you said earlier, custom builds are for the customer, so what does it matter what anyone else thinks?

I have no doubt that this bumper will protect from hard off-roading, all day, for years. I'm just thinking of the more regular drive impacts that can happen. Either way, still the best looking bumper on a 200 to date.

Edit: it was mentioned about the strength of a rear bumper. The rear of Toyota SUV frames are designed for towing, creating a considerable more amount of strength and rigidity. For the rear bumper, I wouldn't worry about crush cans or anything like that, but the front, far different story.

 

[TonyP]

I would have to disagree, I feel that a bumper that can protect the front end of a truck from a collision, and need only a replacement bumper works for me, and my budget the best. As one of my friends said, "the bumper should die, not the truck or you."

I think we all can agree that ripping apart the stock plastic bumper cover, and replacing that, can get expensive over time. I view armor as a way to save the truck itself, and the armor sacrifices itself to do that if needed. Like on ARB bumpers, they use large crush cans to take the load of the impact, but also saving the front end of the truck and the frame, to drive back home.

But like I say, I only talk about thing I've tested.

A 5 car pile up, where I was the last one. The F-150 slammed into the car in front of him, and i went into the F-150.
View attachment 1450031
What you don't see, is i impacted the bottom of the bed itself, where it is really strong.

View attachment 1450033
I hit on the corner, where all bumpers are the weakest, and also where (according to DOT) most front end impacts happen, and according to Australian DOT where almost all animal strikes happen. I bought a new bumper, that was it, the bumper and crush cans took the load, saving the body and frame. Frame was laser tested, not just looking at it. This bumper also slammed sideways on a granite rock wall on the rubicon, and slammed on trails from coast to coast, so it protected during hard rock hits, but when push came to shove, it didn't damage the thing that it was suppose to protect in the first place.

Without clearance from the body, without a crush zone, I feel that if a collision happens, it could be the difference between another bumper, and another truck. But it's like you said earlier, custom builds are for the customer, so what does it matter what anyone else thinks?

I have no doubt that this bumper will protect from hard off-roading, all day, for years. I'm just thinking of the more regular drive impacts that can happen. Either way, still the best looking bumper on a 200 to date.

Edit: it was mentioned about the strength of a rear bumper. The rear of Toyota SUV frames are designed for towing, creating a considerable more amount of strength and rigidity. For the rear bumper, I wouldn't worry about crush cans or anything like that, but the front, far different story.

I agree with most of your post. But lower speed off road stuff is what off road bumpers should be built for,, for the most part, assuming the vehicle isn't a dedicated DD (which this isn't, I drive my s***wagon BMWs most days). There's more, or perhaps less, flexibility in knowing what you'll be using the vehicle for. Sure I plan on driving the Baja and eventually the Pan-American but I feel in the long run this will suit me nicely in most aspects.

Your accident could have gone a few ways. Would having a hard mounted steel bumper like this done more damage to the F150? Maybe. But it's nearly impossible to say it would have done more damage to your vehicle. There are tons of variables.

I'm not sure if the 2nd to last paragraph is a dig at me but I'll say I knew what I wanted and what purpose the vehicle was going to perform. I relayed that to Jason. He did a phenomenal job. Was I misguided? Not sure. I think I did my research. We'll see in the long run.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

For the 2nd to last paragraph comment. No, I mean that in complete sincerity, not an attack at all. Your build is yours, same as mine is mine. If it works for you, that is what matters, and that is all that matters at the end of the day. Who am I to say that what makes you happy is wrong? This is 'Merica!

My 200 is not my DD either, a $2,000 Jetta is. But I feel that even with a dedicated fun truck, I am still 90% on the highway, to get to the trail. That is what worries me, but that's me, it's not the right answer for everyone.

I only bring this stuff up, because I feel others need to know possible strength and weakness of designs. I've spent a ton of money over the years on products that failed, and others that just didn't work for me. I care about the regular guys pocket book, that's all, and I think we get there by having dynamic discussion like this. I am not god's gift to the automotive world, and I only learn by failure, so that's why I really do mean it when I say I like hearing from other point of view.

On my rock buggies, I totally built bumpers like that. Super strong. But on a vehicle that can see public roads, I start thinking about factors that are going to win against my strong bumper, and the weaker part under it that would at least need to be reinforced.

Agreed that this one wreck could have a ton a variables. However, metal will bend in a wreck, that is going to happen, add leverage to the wings and it will be more. The less clearance to other stuff, the less of an impact is needed to bend the wing into a fender. Our frames are designed to fail at a certain point, it's just a fact, and I think that needs to be addressed, when removing crush zone parts for piece that is now stronger than what they are bolted to.

Again, I mean no "that guy" "one-upper" attitude. I think this is good stuff, really I do. The holes for air flow under the bumper are a genius, especially if they had a wing that pushed the wind up toward components if needed.

I just go back to when I was growing up in machine/fabrication shops and later working in a custom car shop. I did SOOOOO much body and frame repair work to front ends from a bumper that was definitely strong. And maybe it left me with an unrealistic expectation of what could happen, who knows, either way, I feel like a dick now, and I'm sorry for that.

 

[TonyP]

For the 2nd to last paragraph comment. No, I mean that in complete sincerity, not an attack at all. Your build is yours, same as mine is mine. If it works for you, that is what matters, and that is all that matters at the end of the day. Who am I to say that what makes you happy is wrong? This is 'Merica!

My 200 is not my DD either, a $2,000 Jetta is. But I feel that even with a dedicated fun truck, I am still 90% on the highway, to get to the trail. That is what worries me, but that's me, it's not the right answer for everyone.

I only bring this stuff up, because I feel others need to know possible strength and weakness of designs. I've spent a ton of money over the years on products that failed, and others that just didn't work for me. I care about the regular guys pocket book, that's all, and I think we get there by having dynamic discussion like this. I am not god's gift to the automotive world, and I only learn by failure, so that's why I really do mean it when I say I like hearing from other point of view.

On my rock buggies, I totally built bumpers like that. Super strong. But on a vehicle that can see public roads, I start thinking about factors that are going to win against my strong bumper, and the weaker part under it that would at least need to be reinforced.

Agreed that this one wreck could have a ton a variables. However, metal will bend in a wreck, that is going to happen, add leverage to the wings and it will be more. The less clearance to other stuff, the less of an impact is needed to bend the wing into a fender. Our frames are designed to fail at a certain point, it's just a fact, and I think that needs to be addressed, when removing crush zone parts for piece that is now stronger than what they are bolted to.

Again, I mean no "that guy" "one-upper" attitude. I think this is good stuff, really I do. The holes for air flow under the bumper are a genius, especially if they had a wing that pushed the wind up toward comports if needed.

I just go back to when I was growing up in machine/fabrication shops and later working in a custom car shop. I did SOOOOO much body and frame repair work to front ends from a bumper that was definitely strong. And maybe it left me with an unrealistic expectation of what could happen, who knows, either way, I feel like a dick now, and I'm sorry for that.

Fair enough, maybe I misread. The box-o-wine is running deep this Friday.

I do agree there's an issue with most automotive forums. That is: new people to the hobby see a build, think it looks cool and say "yeah, I want that" and throw their paycheck at a company and/or dude. Any company will sell anyone anything for the right price. That's capitalism, the only market system that works. That's how 2008 happened. People take advantage of other people who want something. You need to be an informed consumer in anything you do. As I've said a few times on here, know what you're building your rig for. Want to look cool? Right on, go for it. Want to trail ride once a month when your old lady lets you? Cool. Do it. Want a dedicated rig for overlanding. Awesome, lets see it. Know what you're doing, have a plan and be informed. Don't follow anyone else's footsteps. No one is going to bust your chops for having a concise plan and sticking to it. We may ask questions but just to get an idea of where the consumer is coming from. That's an aspect lacking in most forums. So that's why I love this community so much.

I gave Jason a few ideas I'd like to see and he ran with it. He pretty much came up with everything aside from my general outlines and sent me tons of pics along the way to make sure it was exactly as I wanted. As I've said, I'm beyond happy with what I'm getting. It's not exactly what I expected, it's way beyond what I expected.

This thread has gone off the rails haha I do enjoy a good conversation though.

 

[Markuson]

I think the process of "poking holes" in things is eventually good, so long as everyone understands there is a genuine desire get to the bottom of questions vs. "winning the argument." On many forums, that's impossible, because people are too emotionally invested in their own "camp." This forum is different and it's what keeps me coming back. People enjoy the success of others here. I know all parties involved here want everyone to arrive on a good result, and that's very cool.

PS. One thing I've learned about Taco is that he scrutinizes all things simply as a way of processing them.
ALL THINGS I have the same tendency when I shop. If I poke holes...and can fill them with the right info? I make a good purchase.
When I don't bother poking holes in my potential purchases? I find them later. So... Poke away!