Tie rod ends (1 Viewer)

[kerplunk]

As I began troubleshooting my slopping steering I found a pretty likely culprit pretty quickly.


The ball joints seem to twist pretty easily and simply twist the tie rod, as shown in the video (I hope is at least linked, maybe embedded?) showing the play in the ball joints while my son is turning the wheel a couple inches side to side.

But, is this all bad ball joint / tie rod ends, or is there something else I should be also looking at when installing new ends? (specific to this twisting and clicking noises, I am also looking at the center pivot arm box and the drag link).

 

[B y r o n]

The tie rod ends are supposed to pivot side to side. What you need to be looking for is slop or play when the joint is pulled or loaded. In other words, there is movement of the rod but a delay in the part it is connected to in moving.

 

[pb4ugo]

The twisting of the TRE's is normal. You would see a wobble in the socket. A worn TRE would have a wobble in relation of the round ball area and the shaft going into it. New TRE's wont twist as readily but eventually will as in your video. Make sure the the center link bolts that hold it to the frame are tight. Look for wobble between the center link shaft and the housing. Check the condition of the bushings and play. You really don't need the vehicle running. Have him shake the wheel back and forth quickly with the tires on the ground. Does the 40 have a lift? What's your caster angle?

 

[kerplunk]

New TRE's wont twist as readily but eventually will as in your video. Make sure the the center link bolts that hold it to the frame are tight. Look for wobble between the center link shaft and the housing. Check the condition of the bushings and play.

The vehicle is running to keep the PS pump going, easier to turn the wheel small amounts side to side looking for play.

I didn't see much if any movement between the rod end and the bolt with the ball on it (inside the joint bushings), grabbing and shaking things all feels tight, though I was doing that a while ago when tires were on the ground. Having already pulled it mostly apart, all the tapers were in tight and the balls feel pretty tight in the rubber. (though all the castle nuts came off almost too easily, like ~ 20 ft-lbs easy, one missing the cotter pin).

I have no idea what the caster angle is. (Is this something that would be changed by shimming between the spring and axle?) Also not sure what the PO did with the suspension. It sits higher than stock, but all the hangers generally look original and the shackles kinda look like the original size. But at some point between whatever suspension work was done and me owning it, someone seems to have put it on a lift and taken a case of rattle cans to it, so a lot of markings (i.e. brand name of shocks) all disappeared, if there were any on the springs. (A bunch previous work is suspect, based on previously discovered nuts missing from shackle bolts, speedometer cable laying on top of exhaust, etc.).

 

[pb4ugo]

In the video all things appear to be tight. The tires need to be on the ground when checking. You need the resistance of the ground and the tire to put stress on the TRE's to check for excess movement. Yes caster adjustment is done by steel wedges between the axle and springs. Positive caster helps with handling, negative makes the steering wander and twitchy. Factory spec is 1 degree positive, more is better, 3 to 5 is usually good. You can check Caster using a cheap angle finder and placing it on the lower trunion bearing retainer. Don't use the nuts or studs, you should be able to catch just the edge of the retainer. The vehicle needs to be on level ground and proper/same air pressure in the tires. Pretend that the level is the angle finder. You want positive caster.

 

[kerplunk]

Caster is about +5.1 degrees, give of take one or two, on one side, on a jack stand with the tire off, and I'm sure the floor is probably 1 degree or so, maybe half.

My wheels offset is enough that edge is "inside" the rim and the angle finder is a bit too long, won't sit on that edge with the wheel on. I'll find something to get a better measurement later, off the jack stands after replacing the tie rod ends, but for now I'm pretty sure around to 4 to 6 degrees positive.

It's a 74 that's been converted to front disks and power steering, but I don't see any shims between the axle and the spring, so I'm not sure how it ended up like this, assuming it should be 1...

 

[POPO AGIE]

The steering is inherently sloppy on a FJ40. I have a 78 FJ40 and when was still driving it, it would wander on the highway and did not have power steering. It would wear you out on a long drive. I did rebuild the center pivot and it did not help and had two stabilizers and that really did not help.

I have a set of FJ70 tie rod and relay rod with FJ70 tie rod ends that will be actuated by a FJ80 power steering box that will direct instead of the rod from the FJ40 steering box driving the center pivot that would drive the relay rod.

There are too many moving parts and any slop will magnify through the system.

 

[sterling]

I have a 2.5 lift on my 79 w/ps and 33's.
The truck used to wander like crazy, I added a 4 degree shim from 4wheelparts Part # R/ERE1467 and that helped tremendously.
4wheelparts was not the first choice, but the quickest delivery. Not a lot of cash and very much worth it IMOP.

 

[POPO AGIE]

What helped the most for mine was when I did a reverse shackle on the front in welding class in college. After repacking and adjusting the front wheel bearings then aligning the front end it did handle much better. Which did what the shim would have done.

 

[brian]

33x10.50s, armstrong steering box, reversed shackle reversal. 4inch springs, an inch or so in shackles. Doesnt wander at 75mph, will track wagon ruts from time to time.

 

[pb4ugo]

It's best to determine where your caster is, then get the appropriate shim if you need one at all. Too much of a shim can be a problem with the ujoints binding at full droop. 1 degree is factory spec. I like a little more. Imo, 5 positive is about max. Your measurements are ok providing the vehicle was perfectly level, frt to back and side to side, and the weight of the vehicle is loaded on the suspension. Imo, you need to be more accurate with your measurements. Measure with the wheels straight also. Usually lift springs and or shackles can alter caster towards the negative. Does the steering wheel recenter well after a turn? What's the toe in? Looks like you might have a factory box adapted. How's the rag joint? What shocks are those. Not all shocks work upside-down. Are the ubolts tight? Maybe pics of the suspension, bushings etc.

 

[Idaho Savage]

I think it's important to differentiate between "wandering, bump steer, etc." versus "it drives straight but there's a lot of play in the steering."

I put shims in my 40 (6*, I believe) and the bump steer, wandering and general sketchiness went away. It was life changing. Now I'm going to figure out why I can turn my steering wheel about 10* before anything starts happening.

 

[POPO AGIE]

Mine had bump steer, anytime a front wheel hit against anything like a rock or stump or curb it would feed back to the steering wheel. It was always like that even with the stock suspension.

 

[kerplunk]

Measure with the wheels straight also. Usually lift springs and or shackles can alter caster towards the negative. Does the steering wheel recenter well after a turn? What's the toe in? Looks like you might have a factory box adapted. How's the rag joint? What shocks are those. Not all shocks work upside-down. Are the ubolts tight? Maybe pics of the suspension, bushings etc.

I've already ordered, and actually received new tie rod ends, and the old one were removed. Didn't try and measure the toe in before I started...

The power steering conversion and shocks were all installed by the previous owner, and probably springs. And it was all sprayed black (over the dirt also...) but based on the stabilizer maybe "hell for stout" shocks? but not sure, it's all painted black.

The box is mounted tight, I've checked that, several times, don't see any issues. Rag joint looks kinda ugly, looks like a bunch of half deformed rubber squeezed out of it, but I'd thought that wasn't abnormal, and I don't see any play in it.

U bolts look, normal... Nothing about the ubolt / axle / spring / ubolt plate looks like it's loose, rattling or in any way not solid based on a visual inspection.

And the steering would correct pretty well. A little wandering would be fine, but the wobbling at 50 is bad, I don't think I could keep it on the road at 75 (There is a big enough hill to get it going that fast just down the street.).

 

[pb4ugo]

Death wobble can be one thing or a number of things combined. I ussually start with tightening ubolts and snugging up shackles. It's usually something loose. Those that I mentioned, along with loose wheel bearing, worn tires, air pressure, worn bushings, loose or worn trunion bearings, etc. Alignment issues can contribute.

 

[kerplunk]

I think it's important to differentiate between "wandering, bump steer, etc." versus "it drives straight but there's a lot of play in the steering."

I put shims in my 40 (6*, I believe) and the bump steer, wandering and general sketchiness went away. It was life changing. Now I'm going to figure out why I can turn my steering wheel about 10* before anything starts happening.

I think the best term to describe it is maybe "death wobble"...

Over about 45, it's more than a wander. If I try and get it up to 60 there's a wandering aspect to it mostly only because of how much it's wobbling, a lot of shaking in the wheel trying to herd it down the road.

There really isn't that much "play", some, but not really enough that it's bothered me. With the number of rods and ball joints, there's always going to be some. I'm not expecting this to handle like a sports car, or even just a new pickup.

Bump steer isn't really an issue for me. It's been converted to power (previous owner, not sure where the box and bracket were sourced from, but is nearish the original location, i.e. not saginaw conversion), and had two stabilizers when I purchased, I removed one and now only have the stabilizer in the stock location. (I noticed no changes in steering before / after removing the second stabilizer clamped on with ubolts, and that was removed years ago.) I've also considered removing the remaining stabilizer just to get a better "feel" for it's issues, at least temporarily. And, it almost never gets off road, to the only thing the steering really ever has to bump off of it parking lot curbs...

 

[pb4ugo]

Stabilizers are a attemp to mask the problem. Use the search function and use death wobble. You will find many posts. It is a common subject.

 

[Idaho Savage]

Shims cured my death wobble and bump steer. Just sayin'...

 

[Paul_A]

Re-balance your tires to rule that possibility out.

 

[kerplunk]

In a theoretical sense, it makes sense that the wheels have to be pointed in the correct direction and rolling straight, i.e. toe in and caster, etc., needs to be correct....

And everything keeping them in place needs to be tight. Whenever a wheel tries to go a different direction and fight the steering, any play will cause wobble....

In practice, I'm still working on how to get the wheels pointed straight together, and make sure everything's tight...

And good point about the wheel bearing and trunion bearing (those are where the knuckles pivot on the axle?), I need to jack the thing up and check those.