Ticking time bomb TICK TICK TICK: Spark plugs Alert Alert Alert! (1 Viewer)

[2001LC]

I'd not use anti-seize:

Anti-seize (thread lube) will cook and harden in threads, creating extra carbon build-up in threads. This happens, as the spark plugs begin to walk-out and the hot combustion gasses mixed with and heat thread lube. Which will stop walk-out, locking threads in, like a permanent high temp threadlocker. But this can cause spark plugs, to seize in the head. So don't leave in for to "many" heating and cooling cycles, if using A-S. How many H&C cycles is to "many", who knows. But I can say the walking-out is not about miles, it's about heating and cooling cycles (H&C).

I've had occasions. Where I've had to use a 3/4" breaker bar to get spark plugs out, when anti-seize used.
That was after months of adding 44K to gas tank repeatedly and penetrating oil into spark plug tube. First tried 3/8" breaker bar, than 1/2" and finally had to get out the big-boy 3/4" breaker bar. Talk about risky! It was a "hail-mary-pass" last effort. Not just the breaking loose, but almost every turn of getting all the way out was very difficult. Only the last few turns didn't take extreme force. I was shocked, I didn't bust the spark plug in the head or damage the threads. Not something I'd like to even attempt again.

Everyone needs to consider this:
This alert is about spark plugs walking out (loosening) on their own. So why would we even, consider use of anti-seize as even remotely needed

 

[2001LC]

@ReallyACruiser

Yesterday at 11:21 PMNew
Good evening!

I’m in the process of trouble-shooting a misfire on my 2001 LX-470 and figured I’d start with plugs. I removed the driver’s side bank this evening and replaced them with Denso Iridium TT’s. All of my plugs came out ok, but they were all stiff. When reinstalling the new plugs, I applied anti-seize fairly liberally to prevent that issue in the future. I also noticed that all but 1 of my coils were cracked down the casting line. In my research on the coils, I came across both of your threads about coils and about spark plugs.

I haven’t started the vehicle yet since installing the plugs. After reading through a good bit of your spark plug thread, I realize that the anti-seize was a bad idea. My question is, how aggressive should I be in cleaning that out? I can obviously easily remove the plugs and clean off the threads, but would you try to clean the threads in the head somehow? And if so, do you have suggestions on how to do that?

Thank you!

Sam
___________________________________________________________

Hi Sam,

Get it all out now, would be best. Alternatively, make sure they never loosen.

You can make a swap, the size of capture thread port. Use your imagination. Like a wire coat hanger, with lint free cloth attached to the end firmly. On finally passes. Use perhaps a brake cleaner to wet the cloth, followed up with dry.

Do your best to not get anti-seize into cylinders.

 

[cwmoser]

@ReallyACruiser

Yesterday at 11:21 PMNew
Good evening!

I’m in the process of trouble-shooting a misfire on my 2001 LX-470 and figured I’d start with plugs. I removed the driver’s side bank this evening and replaced them with Denso Iridium TT’s. All of my plugs came out ok, but they were all stiff. When reinstalling the new plugs, I applied anti-seize fairly liberally to prevent that issue in the future. I also noticed that all but 1 of my coils were cracked down the casting line. In my research on the coils, I came across both of your threads about coils and about spark plugs.

I haven’t started the vehicle yet since installing the plugs. After reading through a good bit of your spark plug thread, I realize that the anti-seize was a bad idea. My question is, how aggressive should I be in cleaning that out? I can obviously easily remove the plugs and clean off the threads, but would you try to clean the threads in the head somehow? And if so, do you have suggestions on how to do that?

Thank you!

Sam
___________________________________________________________

Hi Sam,

Get it all out now, would be best. Alternatively, make sure they never loosen.

You can make a swap, the size of capture thread port. Use your imagination. Like a wire coat hanger, with lint free cloth attached to the end firmly. On finally passes. Use perhaps a brake cleaner to wet the cloth, followed up with dry.

Do your best to not get anti-seize into cylinders.

A couple months ago I changed the Spark Plugs in my LX470 and put on a light coating of Anti-Seize.
Like you later I learned that it was a bad idea.
But, I have watch YouTube videos of folks using Antii-Seize on Spark Plugs in our 100s.
So far I have not encountered any problems, but sometime in the future I'm going to go and re-torque them just to be sure.

 

[delz05]

Many, many years ago, as a very young wrench turner at a Lincoln dealership, I was taught to ONLY apply the "never-seize" to the top of the plug threads, where the plug meets the cylinder head, using a minimal amount. (Not caked on) Back then... all were iron blocks and heads. I would expect the same priciple would carry to the aluminum heads.

 

[2001LC]

A couple months ago I changed the Spark Plugs in my LX470 and put on a light coating of Anti-Seize.
Like you later I learned that it was a bad idea.
But, I have watch YouTube videos of folks using Antii-Seize on Spark Plugs in our 100s.
So far I have not encountered any problems, but sometime in the future I'm going to go and re-torque them just to be sure.

Just as long as you keep tight, there fine. The probable is how many miles down road, do you need to PM them. More to the point, how many heating and cooling cycles. Miles aren't the best indicator.

My crystal balls, are a bit foggy. On when, to keep going back to PM plugs. As a rule I just like to R&R w/new every 90K w/T-belt. I've four, 100 series now. I also help many with theirs, when there issue get tough. Waters get a bit muddy. So I stick to one procedure for all

The issue, is when sparkplus threads loosen, and the hot gasses threads. Then mix & cook the anti-seize into a solid. As I've repeatedly witness and stated here. Which will stop the plugs from walk-out, so not all bad. But in time, they'll freezes in heads if hot gases continue passing threads. If you look at Denso recommendation, they say if lubing threads, reduce torque. So do not use my 18ft-lbf, stick with FSM ~13ft-lbf. That's because, torque unless manufacturer specifically states seal (lube) threads. Is set for dry threads. Denso permits lubing threads, but they're talking in general terms. They don't account for our 4.7L sparks plugs walking out.

Watchout for videos, of seamly experts. I, can't tell you, how many bad procedure, I've see in them. Many are posted in mud, and followed. Sooner or later many end at my doorstep, and I'm not happy. Nore is owners wallet.

I, so often, get to come behind and correct the bad procedure. Last week it was and oil pump R&R, due to bad procedure. Doesn't anyone have a thumb drive and torque wrench. I correct, countless errors in procedure, done during timing belt service. Most are issues, it's FDS and wheel bearing, due to these videos and bad procedures. Then ball joint damaged by bad procedure is another frequent one. How many have seen the videos, of BFH beating on them. Then video cuts away, and knuckle off. With: "yeah we had little issues with that ball joint". No s***! Does any have pullers, WTF. The list goes on and on.

As time goes on, it's getting worse. As more a more hands touch these over the years. Slee's shop Foreman once said to me: "We'd much rather work on a virgin" Very few virgens remaining. BTW: I've a 24K mile virgin, coming my way next week or two. Only 8 oil & filter changes, in its history and ABS anomaly no one has figured out yet. Story is, 20 HWY miles a week to chruck and a few drives to show off never on dirt roads. Should be interesting.

Some self help videos, are near perfect procedure. Like Timmy The Toolman. He recently became more active, in linking his service work in mud. There are a few minor procedures, I differ on. But for the most part, he and his partner produce about as good of help videos you'll find anywhere. And, they're getting even better year by year. He deserves our "subscribe", "likes" and click "throughs".

I just put-out here in mud. What, I feel is best for our babies. Not everyone agrees with my procedures or recommendations, and I do change as time teaches me better. Timmy, had one tiny little wire hosung bracket, he struggle with. He came up with a solution I love, and use now on every timing belt job. Save me 10 to 30 minutes.

But take any advise and make your own. You decide what's best. It's your rig and walet.

To each his own!

 

[cwmoser]

@2001LC , I appreciate your advice. I'm no expert with these 100's and if I had known of this from someone as knowledgeable as you I would not have used Anti-Seize on those Spark Plugs. I'm gaining more knowledge as time goes on. Thanks for your input in this.

 

[ReallyACruiser]

Thanks to @2001LC and others for the replies! Definitely thankful for those who share wisdom gained from lots of experience.

I’m planning to remove and clean the plugs thoroughly. I will try to get out as much as I can from the threads, but plan to check torque on them regularly as PM.

 

[2001LC]

@2001LC , I appreciate your advice. I'm no expert with these 100's and if I had known of this from someone as knowledgeable as you I would not have used Anti-Seize on those Spark Plugs. I'm gaining more knowledge as time goes on. Thanks for your input in this.

We all are, my friend. Even to this day, there are systems I've not touch. But most someone in muds has.

 

[thetoyotaman]

Update. I recently changed my plugs and 4 of them had the black sludge from backing out. All coils were cracked so I replaced them. That sludge is nasty. It doesn't want to come off. What I did was blow out spark plug tubes before plug removal and then used a brake cleaner soaked shop towel on an extension bar rotating carefully to clean the tubes. I then soaked the new plug threads in brake cleaner and they went in easy. I torqued them to 15 ft/lbs.

 

[2001LC]

What I did was blow out spark plug tubes before plug removal

Sweet!

and then used a brake cleaner soaked shop towel on an extension bar rotating carefully to clean the tubes. I then soaked the new plug threads in brake cleaner and they went in easy. I torqued them to 15 ft/lbs.

 

[Brummel]

I had similar problems but just based on runtime. One of the coils failed at 295000km, but our truck brought us home. With low speed on 7 cylinders but safe.

Sparks 120000km
Coils were original since 1999
European roads, summer & winter, frequent towing, daily use

I always use OEM parts, nothing else. Hence I did a full replacement of all 8 cylinders. Yes, bit pricey doing all 8 on material. Labor is 1h. I thought, only the best for our lady. This invest is for the next 300000km Since then, smooth rides

BTW, when do you regularly exchange the sparks? How long do they last normally on average?

 

[S.CarolinaFZJ80]

I just pulled my original NGK Iridium spark plugs at 191,000 miles (Nov. 2006 build date) and the gap on 6 of them was .043, 2 had a gap of .044. The max gap for a used plug is .051

New plug gap range is .039 to .043.

I could have re-used them based on gap but replaced while I was changing coils.
7 of the 8 coils had hairline cracks.
Cylinder 5 was the only coil not cracked. Coincidently, it was the only plug less than 13 ft. Lb. Torque by about a 1/4 turn.
All plugs but cylinder 5 were clean.
Here's what 5 looked like, just a bit of soot on the ceramic at the base of the boot.

 

[Trapper50cal]

Okay, admittedly I haven't gone through the whole thread...

What's the consensus on just a dab of the weakest (Blue) Loctite?

Would that also turn into a harder solid and create issues on the next change?

 

[Inukshuk]

Okay, admittedly I haven't gone through the whole thread...
What's the consensus on just a dab of the weakest (Blue) Loctite?
Would that also turn into a harder solid and create issues on the next change?

Install them clean.

 

[thetoyotaman]

The danger with putting sealant on spark plug threads is that it may cause a grounding problem with the plug as well as the risk of trash falling in the engine next time you replace potentially causing engine damage. Best practice is to install clean with proper torque which has been discussed thoroughly on this thread. I chose to go over torque and do 15 ft/lbs.

 

[2001LC]

Okay, admittedly I haven't gone through the whole thread...

What's the consensus on just a dab of the weakest (Blue) Loctite?

Would that also turn into a harder solid and create issues on the next change?

I've never tried it. Buy sure you can. But a few things to consider:

• Thread sealer, must be heat high rated.
• Lubed thread, where not specified they be. We must reduce torque 20% to 30%, below spec.
• But know, if they walk out anyway. The thread sealer may cook, and freeze plugs in head. Stops walking out, but can be a real bear to remove.

I like clean threads. Then just R&R every 90K and listen to engine. If TICK TICK TICK re-check them for loosens. Keep in mind. It is, about heating and cooling cycles, not miles. But average DD of 12k to15K miles a year, 90K is about right.

 

[Trapper50cal]

...

• But know, if they walk out anyway. The thread sealer may cook, and freeze plugs in head. Stops walking out, but can be a real bear to remove.

That's the hang-up I'm afraid of.

 

[Jack90210]

I think this has been posted before, but here it is again:

"NGK spark plugs feature trivalent plating. This silver or chrome-colored finish on the threads is designed to provide corrosion resistance against moisture and chemicals. The coating also acts as a release agent during spark plug removal. NGK spark plugs are installed at the factory dry, without lubrication or anti-seize.

"Anti-seize can act as a lubricant, altering torque values up to 20 percent, increasing the risk of spark plug thread breakage and/or metal shell stretch. Thread breakage can sometimes involve removing the cylinder head for repair. Metal shell stretch changes the heat rating of the spark plug and can result in serious engine damage caused by pre-ignition. Do not use anti-seize or lubricant on NGK spark plugs. It is completely unnecessary and can be detrimental."
NGK: Five Things You Should Know About Spark Plugs

 

[Inukshuk]

I think this has been posted before, but here it is again:

"NGK spark plugs feature trivalent plating. This silver or chrome-colored finish on the threads is designed to provide corrosion resistance against moisture and chemicals. The coating also acts as a release agent during spark plug removal. NGK spark plugs are installed at the factory dry, without lubrication or anti-seize.

"Anti-seize can act as a lubricant, altering torque values up to 20 percent, increasing the risk of spark plug thread breakage and/or metal shell stretch. Thread breakage can sometimes involve removing the cylinder head for repair. Metal shell stretch changes the heat rating of the spark plug and can result in serious engine damage caused by pre-ignition. Do not use anti-seize or lubricant on NGK spark plugs. It is completely unnecessary and can be detrimental."
NGK: Five Things You Should Know About Spark Plugs

I for one never saw this before and its great to see! Thanks! Knowledge is power.

 

[Trapper50cal]

Okay...I'm doing plugs and coils tomorrow.
Denso Iridium TT's and OEM coils.

I know not to use anti-seize on the plug threads but what about dielectric grease in between plug and coil?