So what's wrong with the F engines

[Volcano cruiser]

Semi on-topic, this is my first time seriously browsing the 40-series board since I went to the Dark Side, and I have to ask: Why does everybody hate the F series motors these days? I'd take a strong 2F over anything Chebby any day.

Define "everybody".

Me too, and twice on Sunday.

Originally I was going to post this to another guy's thread but I decided that rather than do a hijack it would be better to post a new thread. Being a diesel guy who knows very much next nothing about gasser engines this is a question that has always floated on the edge of my browsing here. It seems that the trend among you folks is to either modify the F series to fiddle with the carb or to change out the carb entirely and go to a GM based TBI setup (Hereby marking the official end of gasser engine knowledge) Or swap out the F series to go with a Chevy small block. I have seen a few adventurous gassers guys going for upgrades to 3FE modern Toyota gassers and at least one who swapped out the 2F head for a 3FE (along with the appropriate piston and con rod swaps, block honing, head polishing etc). By far these guys are out on the edge. As such the question still remains what is exactly wrong with the F series engines 1F, 1.5F or 2F, that makes everyone want to either fiddle with or ditch them? BTW per my sig line, I get the swap out of the original to a more modern Toyota engine guys

 

[dx379]

I've had nothing but bad luck with my 2F... AFTER A REBUILD!

Jonny

 

[DSRTRDR]

my 2F has been going strong for the 5 years I have had it - couple valve adjustments was all

carburetors eventually need some fiddling, it's in the nature of that type of device - look at one

 

[tucker74]

IMO there is nothing *wrong* with the F-series engine, it was just never designed for the type of on-road driving most of us do today. It was designed to be a bullet-proof tractor motor, simple and reliable to last forever. The early motors had issues with the oiling, especially when run at high RPMs (which is common thing to do when you have a three speed and 4:11 axles). The later motors (F1.5+) fixed this, but still are low-RPM engines and have all the drawbacks associated with carboration.

I'm one of the guys you cited as adventurous, in swapping a later model 3FE into my 40. There are a couple of reasons I'm doing this:

1) You can't have everything with a carb, you have to tune it for cold or warm. I'm tired of letting the truck warm up for 10 minutes on cold starts

2) While my 2F ran great, it always ran rich and got terrible mileage (yes ... I could tune it, but then I didn't like the power!).

3) The 3F has a different power curve, which is more friendly to higher RPMs and freeway driving.

I'm a Toyota guy, so I'm sticking with a Toyota engine and I still get the low-reeving benifits of the big-6 It's just a little more user friendly!

My $.02 -

Tucker

 

[Kroll]

I enjoy the tractor power and the low idle crawling speed that they provide.
A coworker allowed me to drive his 350 TBI FJ40 a few times, it was fun to ram your foot into the floor, but other than that I could care less about the set up.
I am more of a purist that tries to stay close to the OEM set up whenever doing any modifications, so I am biased in my opinion.

I currently run a F155 with the only upgrade being a Downey header with a MAF coolant intake heater and points-less pertronix iginition. I have a spare '71 F155 that is fresher than the current one, hopefully going to be swapped in the near future. I plan to continue running F's in this truck, a diesel upgrade can wait for another truck.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I'm a Toyota guy, so I'm sticking with a Toyota engine and I still get the low-reeving benifits of the big-6 It's just a little more user friendly!

My $.02 -

Tucker

I hear you, that is exactly why I stayed with the Toyota 1HZ engine when I swapped out the original B. (Dieselspeak disclaimer) I'm a Toyota guy and that's one of the main reasons why I stuck with a Toyota engine. Well said.

 

[bsmith123]

1f 2f

well I think there are several reasons

some just have to keep taking it further, tinkering, what's possible? etc.

Others I think get frustrated after a few probs and hope to get modern reliability or the engine blows and it's easier to just get a crate motor


and IH8MUD puts ideas in your head! That Diesel forum especially!

my 2F pulls strong and runs well & every bolt on is new or rebuilt------So now I am putting in a 1HD-T

 

[GarageRat]

This seems to be coming up a lot and I believe there's some misconceptions on the whole I6 vs V8 debate, mostly because the small block chevy was NEVER meant to be a low RPM motor like the F/F.5/2F which at higher RPM can have the same piston speed as a sport bike motor. Sure it's been used as one but that does not mean the original architecture on which blocks through the 90s were based on were meant for low rpm, high load situations. There's a discussion in the Hardcore section about it as well. A more fair comparison would be a Pontiac, Buick, Olds, or Cadillac V8 as they have strokes similar to an F and were meant from the get go to be more torque oriented motors.

 

[cjgoode]

I have a 71 1F in my 1962 and love it. After sitting for many years I had no problems getting it started. I love the old fj40's and the old engines that cam with it. I will keep the original carb, points etc. You are crazy to drive a short wheel based vehicle at 70 or 80 MPH anyway, these are cruisers not sports car's. I do think if you keep the engine stock, and drive it like it was made to drive, it will be reliable for a long long time. People refer to them as tractor engines and gas powered diesels for a reason, lots of low end torque and reliable for extremely high millage if not abused.

 

[bikersmurf]

The 1.5 F motor was awesome, until it died in 1996. I swore I'd not replace it, but...
Cost to rebuild: $3000 ++
Cost to rebuild the 2F smoker motor from parts truck: $3000
Cost for exhaust system: +/- $500
Total: $3500

Well above my student budget. So, it was part out the 40 or...

Cost to convert to Chevrolet (including new clutch, new exhaust, 120 amp alternator): $2000.
1969 Chevrolet 350 with 10.25:1 compression: $250 (still running strong today)
Total: $2250

Still above budget... But much less than a new 40.

The V8 is tuned so it will pull from 500 rpm and gets the same or better mpg than my F ever did. Off road it does almost as well as the F, and for the wheeling I do it's great. For the 95% of the driving I do on road, it's happier than the F.

What's wrong with the F/2F? They can be very expensive to repair, and parts can be hard to find. (Although, that has improved somewhat from 96 when the one set of pistons the machine shop could find was $600 + shipping.)

Today, I have a choice of 2F motors, transmissions, and transfer cases for $150-$250 for the works. Times change.

 

[bsmith123]

chevy vs toyota

nothing against the SBC I am a fan myself, but I think in a LC detracts somewhat from resale so money today may mean money back tomorrow

I think a 1F to 1.5 or 2F or Diesel adds or at least doesn't detract from the value

Lets face it most of us mod and mod and then everyone goes nuts and drools over a bone stock rig in good condition

To each their own by all means though

 

[cjgoode]

bikersmurf makes a point, while some people love the F series replacing or rebuilding it is not always the affordable option. If mine dies likely a 350 conversion would be in the future, just because finding a donor in my neck of the woods is very rare, if I did it I would miss the F, it would also be a feasibility and financial decision, first choice would be to try and find an F series again. You can get a basic 350 crate engine that comes with starter, carb and all the trimming for less then a rebuild on an F series. (that is a basic simple 350 not a high power racing motor)

 

[Combat Chuck]

Huge thank you to he-who-was-once JABXYZ (AKA Volcano Cruiser, just wrote it like that because I was feeling saucey) for making this a legit discussion instead of a thread-derailing tirade; and my sincerest apologies to MyBlueToy for turning his thread into a soap-box.

To begin:

I must confess, three years back, after looking at eight different rigs, I settled on a 1972 40 with an SBC, so I can be seen as a hypocrite; but I prefer to reckon it to getting a chance to see how things shouldn't be done before I finally saw the light. That said, I'm not a total purist, at least not yet.

I shouldn't have used the word: "everybody" in my classifying statement, but I'm seeing many owners newer to the experience chock their Fs and 2Fs off as refuse for favor of bastardizing a beautiful piece of machinery with fugly American engines (or worse yet: the transmissions).
Having the down time at work to surf the 40-series forum just sounded amazing, I was looking forward to seeing some nice, built 40's and different people's interpretations; shoot, I love mods, the more creative and original, the better. However, tonight in my quest, I managed to open up about six different build thread that were running Chevy hardware; many of the people were very new to their cruisers, or didn't seem to grasp the, for lack of better words, magic of an F.

I'm beginning to feel that our community is losing a legacy, the more of us who abandon Toyota hardware in their cruisers, the sooner the features that created these vehicle's identities will also be lost.

I see no fault in people exploring the possibilities of improving their motors, Trollhole's Big Gay 2F is one of the best rebuild-mods I've ever read, Rockdoc's 2FE build made a dry class very informative for me, Macinsac's 2F-ETI build was insane. But where is it writ that an SBC swap should be anything shy of a final trump card, where the situation's become too costly, too difficult, and too brittle for anything else (speed doesn't factor in, if you wanted a fast truck, you've bought the wrong thing, 'nuff said).

Bottom line: get a chance to feel just how right a 40 with the motor it's meant to have feels before giving into the Chevy demons and better yet, look at the options, Toyota makes an awesome diesel; as Bikersmurf points out, there are openings for working on 2F's and transmissions we didn't have a decade ago, shoot, I'd advise looking into a 4BTA swap before going to Government Motors, there are just such greater options out there than a bright orange V8.

 

[GarageRat]

I shouldn't have used the word: "everybody" in my classifying statement, but I'm seeing many owners newer to the experience chock their Fs and 2Fs off as refuse for favor of bastardizing a beautiful piece of machinery with fugly American engines (or worse yet: the transmissions).

I'm beginning to feel that our community is losing a legacy, the more of us who abandon Toyota hardware in their cruisers, the sooner the features that created these vehicle's identities will also be lost...
...
Bottom line: get a chance to feel just how right a 40 with the motor it's meant to have feels before giving into the Chevy demons and better yet, look at the options, Toyota makes an awesome diesel

In favor of a balanced discussion I'd like to offer a few counterpoints:

1. The "fugly american" transmissions such as the SM420 and SM465 are the bread and butter of cheaper low gearing for anyone that does a ton of offroad driving. I've wheeled and wheeled with guys with the J30, the H42, and the 420/465 and the SM guys never feel the first gear isn't low enough. I personally have a J30, an SM465, and a W56 in my shop for personal cruisers, they all have pros and cons but I feel for anyone serious about going slow with a manual they'd be silly to discount the 420/465 for just being american. This doesn't even take into account the NV4500.

2. Yes, Toyota makes great diesels. They're also not very cheap in America and the bang for buck isn't enough to justify one in my humble opinion. The reason many people go away from the Toyota motors is ease of parts availability. The small block chevy is popular because it is an incredibly easy motor to get parts for, any parts store in america will have most parts to get one back running. Toyota I6s on the other hand are a waiting game if something goes wrong usually.

3. As far as a legacy I feel to a certain point some people get too caught up in what once was without realizing how much they change things themselves. If it's not the original, year correct motor then no matter what you've changed the character of that vehicle (obviously I mean F in an F equipped, F.5 in F.5, etc). Disc brakes make it stop better, but the original character involved those drum brakes everyone hates to adjust for the first decade of production. Power steering, easier to drive but once again changes the character since the minority of 40s originally had it. Whose to say they have a more "authentic" driving experience? Me with stock gearing, stock 3 speed, manual drum brakes (though I will admit I changed to a dual circuit master cylinder), completely stock interior save for auxillary gauges and a torque oriented V8 or someone with a 2F but added powersteering, an H55, 4 wheel disc brakes, aftermarket buckets, etc etc. Obviously the guy with the 2F and mods has a safer, more easily driven vehicle for the average driver but was the 40 an easily driven vehicle in stock form?

By no means am I implying anyone is wrong or right and everyone has their own reasons for owning a cruiser. I just feel that to get caught up in essentially semantics that won't change anyones mind is silly. To worry about whether or not it's a Toyota part and to dog other great parts because they're not regardless of merit is closed minded in my book. Personally I would've kept an F in my '63 if I had one that I could've rebuilt affordably but I am not willing to spend 3 grand on it when I have more affordable options available to power my daily driver. My hat goes off to guys that do perfect restos like Destin's, however I also appreciate the mild to wild rigs a lot of guys come up with on here.

 

[JohnnyC]

nothing wrong with the f

love my f ...my last 74 F155 (F.5) had approx 450,000 miles before i replaced it with another 74 F155...i had to get rid of the oil leaks ...and it was easyer to replace with a fresh one than to redue the tired one.

alot of people like to have the power that an F just cant muster up...bunch of yaaahoo's lol

 

[cjgoode]

$$$$ bright orange v8's are cheap, readily available, info and parts for swapping them are everywhere, and parts also cheap and can be had everywhere. The 350 is a good solid reliable motor and very cheap compared to other options. F series is definitely the best but budget trumps what is best every time.

 

[Cruisertime]

I felt that the F was entirely too heavy for the power it was putting out. My preference was to have something reliable, that put decent power to ground. I've had many V8 sbc's and def know them inside and out. Its also very easy to explain to the parts counter ding bat what I need. I will admit, the F motor is great when paired with some that has more than 5 forward gears and tires smaller than 35's. At least for me that is.

 

[bikersmurf]

Its also very easy to explain to the parts counter ding bat what I need.

Until you ask for the, "11 inch Standard low-diaphram type Chevy clutch" that the instructions that came with the conversion kit ask for. You then get the "Year, Make, and Model" routine... and you can start to smell the brain cells dying when you try to explain what you need.

For some things you are just as well off with stock.

 

[basfire]

I'm a fan of the F engine. My '73 40, which I've owned since 1986, is a dependable ride on and off the road. The engine was 'overhauled' (block left in rig) in 2003. It is spring over, 4 wheel disc, SM420, 35" Mud Terrains and 4:88 gears. The original Toyota carb, Pertronix pointless ignition, headers, No-Smog. With a fresh engine and gearing to match the tire size It is a joy to drive whether cruising on the highway or crawling on the trail. It even pulls grades in the mountains.
I like keeping things simple.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Huge thank you to he-who-was-once JABXYZ (AKA Volcano Cruiser, just wrote it like that because I was feeling saucey) for making this a legit discussion instead of a thread-derailing tirade; and my sincerest apologies to MyBlueToy for turning his thread into a soap-box...

Anytime

The 1.5 F motor was awesome, until it died in 1996. I swore I'd not replace it, but...
Cost to rebuild: $3000 ++
Cost to rebuild the 2F smoker motor from parts truck: $3000
Cost for exhaust system: +/- $500
Total: $3500

Well above my student budget. So, it was part out the 40 or...

Cost to convert to Chevrolet (including new clutch, new exhaust, 120 amp alternator): $2000.
1969 Chevrolet 350 with 10.25:1 compression: $250 (still running strong today)
Total: $2250

Still above budget... But much less than a new 40...

What's wrong with the F/2F? They can be very expensive to repair, and parts can be hard to find. (Although, that has improved somewhat from 96 when the one set of pistons the machine shop could find was $600 + shipping.)

Today, I have a choice of 2F motors, transmissions, and transfer cases for $150-$250 for the works. Times change.

$$$$ bright orange v8's are cheap, readily available, info and parts for swapping them are everywhere, and parts also cheap and can be had everywhere. The 350 is a good solid reliable motor and very cheap compared to other options. F series is definitely the best but budget trumps what is best every time.

bikersmurf makes a point, while some people love the F series replacing or rebuilding it is not always the affordable option. If mine dies likely a 350 conversion would be in the future, just because finding a donor in my neck of the woods is very rare, if I did it I would miss the F, it would also be a feasibility and financial decision, first choice would be to try and find an F series again. You can get a basic 350 crate engine that comes with starter, carb and all the trimming for less then a rebuild on an F series. (that is a basic simple 350 not a high power racing motor)

While by no means the only reasons, I see a couple of recurring themes here for why people are choosing Chevy engines over the F, 1.5F or 2F:
1)Cost of Aquisition (Engine) - Cheap
2)Cost of Parts - Cheap
3) Availibility of Parts - Everywhere
4) Cost of rebuild/modification of existing F version - High or higher than (1) and (2)

To throw another monkey into the pile I got to thinking about something (saucy feeling) Combat Chuck said regarding losing something that made the vehicles unique and gave them character when folks make the above calculation and opt for a small block 350. For those who have made the Chevy decision or ar thinking about it now what if any consideration did you give to the:
1) 1FZ-FE (Toyota 6 cyl from 70 and 80 series)
2) 3FE (Toyota 6cyl from 60,70,and 80 series)
3) 2UZ-FE (Toyota 8cyl from 80/100(?) series, Tundra and Sequoia)

As I said at the outset not a gasser guy, but the 1FZ-FE and 3FE were supposed to be the Toyota replacements for the F, F1.5, 2F series of engines. The 2UZ-FE at least on paper looks interesting. These came in vehicles from 1990 - 2005 such that they SHOULD all be able to be found in salvage yards in NA. All three are current production (?) Toyota engines so parts should be available through the dealership. As such in terms of aquisition of engine costs and parts availibility they should be in the decision mix. Are folks considering these engines as F series replacements? If not why not? Again not questioning anyones decision to swap engines or to rebuild what they have or to go Toyota or Chevy, as I said I'm a diesel guy who has always been curious about this topic and Combat Chuck's post got me to post this thread.