So what's wrong with the F engines

Discussion in '40- & 55-Series Tech' started by Volcano cruiser, Dec 13, 2010.

  1. Volcano cruiser

    Volcano cruiser

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    Originally I was going to post this to another guy's thread but I decided that rather than do a hijack it would be better to post a new thread. Being a diesel guy who knows very much next nothing about gasser engines this is a question that has always floated on the edge of my browsing here. It seems that the trend among you folks is to either modify the F series to fiddle with the carb or to change out the carb entirely and go to a GM based TBI setup (Hereby marking the official end of gasser engine knowledge:eek:) Or swap out the F series to go with a Chevy small block. I have seen a few adventurous gassers guys going for upgrades to 3FE modern Toyota gassers and at least one who swapped out the 2F head for a 3FE (along with the appropriate piston and con rod swaps, block honing, head polishing etc). By far these guys are out on the edge. As such the question still remains what is exactly wrong with the F series engines 1F, 1.5F or 2F, that makes everyone want to either fiddle with or ditch them? BTW per my sig line, I get the swap out of the original to a more modern Toyota engine guys:grinpimp: :cheers: :popcorn:
     
  2. dx379

    dx379

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    I've had nothing but bad luck with my 2F... AFTER A REBUILD!

    Jonny
     
  3. DSRTRDR

    DSRTRDR I can mangle anything ... SILVER Star

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    my 2F has been going strong for the 5 years I have had it - couple valve adjustments was all

    carburetors eventually need some fiddling, it's in the nature of that type of device - look at one
     
  4. tucker74

    tucker74 Moderator

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    IMO there is nothing *wrong* with the F-series engine, it was just never designed for the type of on-road driving most of us do today. It was designed to be a bullet-proof tractor motor, simple and reliable to last forever. The early motors had issues with the oiling, especially when run at high RPMs (which is common thing to do when you have a three speed and 4:11 axles). The later motors (F1.5+) fixed this, but still are low-RPM engines and have all the drawbacks associated with carboration.

    I'm one of the guys you cited as adventurous, in swapping a later model 3FE into my 40. There are a couple of reasons I'm doing this:

    1) You can't have everything with a carb, you have to tune it for cold or warm. I'm tired of letting the truck warm up for 10 minutes on cold starts ;)

    2) While my 2F ran great, it always ran rich and got terrible mileage (yes ... I could tune it, but then I didn't like the power!).

    3) The 3F has a different power curve, which is more friendly to higher RPMs and freeway driving.

    I'm a Toyota guy, so I'm sticking with a Toyota engine and I still get the low-reeving benifits of the big-6 ;) It's just a little more user friendly!

    My $.02 -

    Tucker
     
  5. Kroll

    Kroll

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    I enjoy the tractor power and the low idle crawling speed that they provide.
    A coworker allowed me to drive his 350 TBI FJ40 a few times, it was fun to ram your foot into the floor, but other than that I could care less about the set up.
    I am more of a purist that tries to stay close to the OEM set up whenever doing any modifications, so I am biased in my opinion.

    I currently run a F155 with the only upgrade being a Downey header with a MAF coolant intake heater and points-less pertronix iginition. I have a spare '71 F155 that is fresher than the current one, hopefully going to be swapped in the near future. I plan to continue running F's in this truck, a diesel upgrade can wait for another truck.
     
  6. Volcano cruiser

    Volcano cruiser

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    I hear you, that is exactly why I stayed with the Toyota 1HZ engine when I swapped out the original B. (Dieselspeak disclaimer:grinpimp:) I'm a Toyota guy and that's one of the main reasons why I stuck with a Toyota engine. Well said.:cheers::cheers:
     
  7. bsmith123

    bsmith123

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    1f 2f

    well I think there are several reasons

    some just have to keep taking it further, tinkering, what's possible? etc.

    Others I think get frustrated after a few probs and hope to get modern reliability or the engine blows and it's easier to just get a crate motor


    and IH8MUD puts ideas in your head! That Diesel forum especially!

    my 2F pulls strong and runs well & every bolt on is new or rebuilt------So now I am putting in a 1HD-T:doh:
     
  8. GarageRat

    GarageRat

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    This seems to be coming up a lot and I believe there's some misconceptions on the whole I6 vs V8 debate, mostly because the small block chevy was NEVER meant to be a low RPM motor like the F/F.5/2F which at higher RPM can have the same piston speed as a sport bike motor. Sure it's been used as one but that does not mean the original architecture on which blocks through the 90s were based on were meant for low rpm, high load situations. There's a discussion in the Hardcore section about it as well. A more fair comparison would be a Pontiac, Buick, Olds, or Cadillac V8 as they have strokes similar to an F and were meant from the get go to be more torque oriented motors.
     
  9. cjgoode

    cjgoode

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    I have a 71 1F in my 1962 and love it. After sitting for many years I had no problems getting it started. I love the old fj40's and the old engines that cam with it. I will keep the original carb, points etc. You are crazy to drive a short wheel based vehicle at 70 or 80 MPH anyway, these are cruisers not sports car's. I do think if you keep the engine stock, and drive it like it was made to drive, it will be reliable for a long long time. People refer to them as tractor engines and gas powered diesels for a reason, lots of low end torque and reliable for extremely high millage if not abused.
     
  10. bikersmurf

    bikersmurf

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    The 1.5 F motor was awesome, until it died :crybaby: in 1996. I swore I'd not replace it, but...
    Cost to rebuild: $3000 ++
    Cost to rebuild the 2F smoker motor from parts truck: $3000
    Cost for exhaust system: +/- $500
    Total: $3500

    Well above my student budget. So, it was part out the 40 or...

    Cost to convert to Chevrolet (including new clutch, new exhaust, 120 amp alternator): $2000.
    1969 Chevrolet 350 with 10.25:1 compression: $250 (still running strong today)
    Total: $2250

    Still above budget... But much less than a new 40.

    The V8 is tuned so it will pull from 500 rpm and gets the same or better mpg than my F ever did. Off road it does almost as well as the F, and for the wheeling I do it's great. For the 95% of the driving I do on road, it's happier than the F.

    What's wrong with the F/2F? They can be very expensive to repair, and parts can be hard to find. (Although, that has improved somewhat from 96 when the one set of pistons the machine shop could find was $600 + shipping.)

    Today, I have a choice of 2F motors, transmissions, and transfer cases for $150-$250 for the works. Times change.
    :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  11. bsmith123

    bsmith123

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    chevy vs toyota

    nothing against the SBC I am a fan myself, but I think in a LC detracts somewhat from resale so money today may mean money back tomorrow

    I think a 1F to 1.5 or 2F or Diesel adds or at least doesn't detract from the value

    Lets face it most of us mod and mod and then everyone goes nuts and drools over a bone stock rig in good condition:meh:

    To each their own by all means though
     
  12. cjgoode

    cjgoode

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    bikersmurf makes a point, while some people love the F series replacing or rebuilding it is not always the affordable option. If mine dies likely a 350 conversion would be in the future, just because finding a donor in my neck of the woods is very rare, if I did it I would miss the F, it would also be a feasibility and financial decision, first choice would be to try and find an F series again. You can get a basic 350 crate engine that comes with starter, carb and all the trimming for less then a rebuild on an F series. (that is a basic simple 350 not a high power racing motor)
     
  13. Combat Chuck

    Combat Chuck

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    Huge thank you to he-who-was-once JABXYZ (AKA Volcano Cruiser, just wrote it like that because I was feeling saucey) for making this a legit discussion instead of a thread-derailing tirade; and my sincerest apologies to MyBlueToy for turning his thread into a soap-box.

    To begin:

    I must confess, three years back, after looking at eight different rigs, I settled on a 1972 40 with an SBC, so I can be seen as a hypocrite; but I prefer to reckon it to getting a chance to see how things shouldn't be done before I finally saw the light. That said, I'm not a total purist, at least not yet.

    I shouldn't have used the word: "everybody" in my classifying statement, but I'm seeing many owners newer to the experience chock their Fs and 2Fs off as refuse for favor of bastardizing a beautiful piece of machinery with fugly American engines (or worse yet: the transmissions).
    Having the down time at work to surf the 40-series forum just sounded amazing, I was looking forward to seeing some nice, built 40's and different people's interpretations; shoot, I love mods, the more creative and original, the better. However, tonight in my quest, I managed to open up about six different build thread that were running Chevy hardware; many of the people were very new to their cruisers, or didn't seem to grasp the, for lack of better words, magic of an F.

    I'm beginning to feel that our community is losing a legacy, the more of us who abandon Toyota hardware in their cruisers, the sooner the features that created these vehicle's identities will also be lost.

    I see no fault in people exploring the possibilities of improving their motors, Trollhole's Big Gay 2F is one of the best rebuild-mods I've ever read, Rockdoc's 2FE build made a dry class very informative for me, Macinsac's 2F-ETI build was insane. But where is it writ that an SBC swap should be anything shy of a final trump card, where the situation's become too costly, too difficult, and too brittle for anything else (speed doesn't factor in, if you wanted a fast truck, you've bought the wrong thing, 'nuff said).

    Bottom line: get a chance to feel just how right a 40 with the motor it's meant to have feels before giving into the Chevy demons and better yet, look at the options, Toyota makes an awesome diesel; as Bikersmurf points out, there are openings for working on 2F's and transmissions we didn't have a decade ago, shoot, I'd advise looking into a 4BTA swap before going to Government Motors, there are just such greater options out there than a bright orange V8.
     
  14. GarageRat

    GarageRat

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    In favor of a balanced discussion I'd like to offer a few counterpoints:

    1. The "fugly american" transmissions such as the SM420 and SM465 are the bread and butter of cheaper low gearing for anyone that does a ton of offroad driving. I've wheeled and wheeled with guys with the J30, the H42, and the 420/465 and the SM guys never feel the first gear isn't low enough. I personally have a J30, an SM465, and a W56 in my shop for personal cruisers, they all have pros and cons but I feel for anyone serious about going slow with a manual they'd be silly to discount the 420/465 for just being american. This doesn't even take into account the NV4500.

    2. Yes, Toyota makes great diesels. They're also not very cheap in America and the bang for buck isn't enough to justify one in my humble opinion. The reason many people go away from the Toyota motors is ease of parts availability. The small block chevy is popular because it is an incredibly easy motor to get parts for, any parts store in america will have most parts to get one back running. Toyota I6s on the other hand are a waiting game if something goes wrong usually.

    3. As far as a legacy I feel to a certain point some people get too caught up in what once was without realizing how much they change things themselves. If it's not the original, year correct motor then no matter what you've changed the character of that vehicle (obviously I mean F in an F equipped, F.5 in F.5, etc). Disc brakes make it stop better, but the original character involved those drum brakes everyone hates to adjust for the first decade of production. Power steering, easier to drive but once again changes the character since the minority of 40s originally had it. Whose to say they have a more "authentic" driving experience? Me with stock gearing, stock 3 speed, manual drum brakes (though I will admit I changed to a dual circuit master cylinder), completely stock interior save for auxillary gauges and a torque oriented V8 or someone with a 2F but added powersteering, an H55, 4 wheel disc brakes, aftermarket buckets, etc etc. Obviously the guy with the 2F and mods has a safer, more easily driven vehicle for the average driver but was the 40 an easily driven vehicle in stock form?

    By no means am I implying anyone is wrong or right and everyone has their own reasons for owning a cruiser. I just feel that to get caught up in essentially semantics that won't change anyones mind is silly. To worry about whether or not it's a Toyota part and to dog other great parts because they're not regardless of merit is closed minded in my book. Personally I would've kept an F in my '63 if I had one that I could've rebuilt affordably but I am not willing to spend 3 grand on it when I have more affordable options available to power my daily driver. My hat goes off to guys that do perfect restos like Destin's, however I also appreciate the mild to wild rigs a lot of guys come up with on here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  15. JohnnyC

    JohnnyC Long ago TLCA# 2231

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    nothing wrong with the f

    love my f ...my last 74 F155 (F.5) had approx 450,000 miles before i replaced it with another 74 F155...i had to get rid of the oil leaks ...and it was easyer to replace with a fresh one than to redue the tired one.

    alot of people like to have the power that an F just cant muster up...bunch of yaaahoo's lol :)
     
  16. cjgoode

    cjgoode

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    $$$$ bright orange v8's are cheap, readily available, info and parts for swapping them are everywhere, and parts also cheap and can be had everywhere. The 350 is a good solid reliable motor and very cheap compared to other options. F series is definitely the best but budget trumps what is best every time.
     
  17. Cruisertime

    Cruisertime

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    I felt that the F was entirely too heavy for the power it was putting out. My preference was to have something reliable, that put decent power to ground. I've had many V8 sbc's and def know them inside and out. Its also very easy to explain to the parts counter ding bat what I need. I will admit, the F motor is great when paired with some that has more than 5 forward gears and tires smaller than 35's. At least for me that is.
     
  18. Lil'John

    Lil'John SILVER Star

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    To add to the argument, nothing beats the reliability of EFI and in some states, the only way to legally get EFI is to swap a complete engine from the same year or newer. This means you can NOT just swap a TBI unit onto a 2F.

    There is also the whole making the drivetrain match the driving condition/style. A 2F doesn't lend itself to reasonable freeway speeds. Sure, you could do 55mph on a freeway but when the predominate speed is 75mph, you become an accident waiting to happen.

    On my old FJ40, I swapped from a great/strong running 2F to a 5.0L TBI. I did this because this was the ONLY smog legal way to get EFI onto my 1975 Calif Cruiser in the mid 90s. I needed the EFI for rock crawling. The V8 also helped get my freeway cruising range to 65mph. At the time I was daily driving it.

    On my current FJ55, I swapped out an unknown 2F for a 6.0L Vortec. As a 1971, it is smog exempt in Calif so that wasn't a consideration on my choice. However, before the engine install and all the resulting "issues", my rig was being designed for medium duty offroading, daily driving, and towing. So again, EFI was mandatory for me. While the 2F is "strong", I didn't feel it would be suited for towing.

    When/if I do another FJ40 project, I will be looking into a Turbo EFI 2F with stock transmission(H41), a doubler, and an orion.

    To me, I find it is hypocritical that people think it is the engine that makes a cruiser a cruiser and not all the other easily visible characteristics: offset axles, bubbly front fenders, gently curved rear fenders, etc. I'm more insulted by the guy who says his 2F with Cruiser bib is more of a cruiser than a full bodied rig with a V8:confused::confused::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
  19. bikersmurf

    bikersmurf

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    Until you ask for the, "11 inch Standard low-diaphram type Chevy clutch" that the instructions that came with the conversion kit ask for. You then get the "Year, Make, and Model" routine... and you can start to smell the brain cells dying when you try to explain what you need.:confused:

    For some things you are just as well off with stock.:D
     
  20. basfire

    basfire

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    I'm a fan of the F engine. My '73 40, which I've owned since 1986, is a dependable ride on and off the road. The engine was 'overhauled' (block left in rig) in 2003. It is spring over, 4 wheel disc, SM420, 35" Mud Terrains and 4:88 gears. The original Toyota carb, Pertronix pointless ignition, headers, No-Smog. With a fresh engine and gearing to match the tire size It is a joy to drive whether cruising on the highway or crawling on the trail. It even pulls grades in the mountains.
    I like keeping things simple.
     
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