So what's wrong with the F engines

[bikersmurf]

The big questions with Toyota motors 1,2,3 are how easily will they bolt into a 40 and how available are parts to fix them?

(They weren't really options when I swapped mine in back in 1996... Would've been cheaper to buy another 40)

Money was the deciding factor. Other considerations are: parts availability, aftermarket parts, drivability on road, power, and upgradability.
"Bright Orange Chevy's" are swapped into all sorts of cars, street rods, trucks, and boats because of their abundance, availability of aftermarket accessories, and support.

 

[Combat Chuck]

1. The SM420/465 are great for crawling, but they're horrific for daily driving. They're basically a 3-speed with a stupid-deep first gear; and they shift like a dump-truck, that's why I discount them. I'd run one hands-down in a Jimmy, but I think the H42 and H55 make for far superior handling and driving in a cruiser. I must say that when I mentioned the transmissions, I had in mind the notion of someone installing a TH350, which has always baffled me. Why waste good money on a severely outdated car transmission that by modern standards is now deficient by two gears???

Not a single person has a "need" for these transmissions offroad. Yeah, they've got the granny factor, and some offer a reprieve to clutch-evading wimps, but does not having one of these sacred iron giants exclude people from hitting trails?
I've done fine offroad since August with my little L52, there hasn't been a single moment when I stopped and thought: "gee, what I really need is 7-to-1 first gear!".

2. Very true, there is no cheap Toyota diesel option, but when is an engine swap ever affordable? We're talking shades of ridiculousness here! The cheapest alternative will always be to leave the damn thing alone!

3. I'm not swooning over authenticity; but I'm fed up with seeing somebody discarding good components because the high-and-mighty interwebs told them that a Cruiser's only good once you've gone all bionicman on it.

In favor of a balanced discussion I'd like to offer a few counterpoints:

1. The "fugly american" transmissions such as the SM420 and SM465 are the bread and butter of cheaper low gearing for anyone that does a ton of offroad driving. I've wheeled and wheeled with guys with the J30, the H42, and the 420/465 and the SM guys never feel the first gear isn't low enough. I personally have a J30, an SM465, and a W56 in my shop for personal cruisers, they all have pros and cons but I feel for anyone serious about going slow with a manual they'd be silly to discount the 420/465 for just being american. This doesn't even take into account the NV4500.

2. Yes, Toyota makes great diesels. They're also not very cheap in America and the bang for buck isn't enough to justify one in my humble opinion. The reason many people go away from the Toyota motors is ease of parts availability. The small block chevy is popular because it is an incredibly easy motor to get parts for, any parts store in america will have most parts to get one back running. Toyota I6s on the other hand are a waiting game if something goes wrong usually.

3. As far as a legacy I feel to a certain point some people get too caught up in what once was without realizing how much they change things themselves. If it's not the original, year correct motor then no matter what you've changed the character of that vehicle (obviously I mean F in an F equipped, F.5 in F.5, etc). Disc brakes make it stop better, but the original character involved those drum brakes everyone hates to adjust for the first decade of production. Power steering, easier to drive but once again changes the character since the minority of 40s originally had it. Whose to say they have a more "authentic" driving experience? Me with stock gearing, stock 3 speed, manual drum brakes (though I will admit I changed to a dual circuit master cylinder), completely stock interior save for auxillary gauges and a torque oriented V8 or someone with a 2F but added powersteering, an H55, 4 wheel disc brakes, aftermarket buckets, etc etc. Obviously the guy with the 2F and mods has a safer, more easily driven vehicle for the average driver but was the 40 an easily driven vehicle in stock form?

By no means am I implying anyone is wrong or right and everyone has their own reasons for owning a cruiser. I just feel that to get caught up in essentially semantics that won't change anyones mind is silly. To worry about whether or not it's a Toyota part and to dog other great parts because they're not regardless of merit is closed minded in my book. Personally I would've kept an F in my '63 if I had one that I could've rebuilt affordably but I am not willing to spend 3 grand on it when I have more affordable options available to power my daily driver. My hat goes off to guys that do perfect restos like Destin's, however I also appreciate the mild to wild rigs a lot of guys come up with on here.

 

[cjgoode]

You can add drum brakes and manual steering boxes to this. Seems like anyone who gets an older cruiser is told to swap them out first thing. Adjust the drum brakes every few years and you will have no problems at all, and with these big steering wheels the stock steering does well. This is all assuming you are not going to do rock crawling. People spend a lot of money to buy these old unique cruisers then spend a ton of money to try and make them handle like a brand new car and loose all the unique characteristics of these vehicles.

 

[bikersmurf]

I agree that pulling out good components to swap in others doesn't make sence. The only thing I've considered, and I'll emphasize considered, would be a 3b for the fuel economy. That said, work is 4 miles away, and my left knee is fubar... So I see myself having to shift a lot more after dropping 2-3 grand into a motor swap. Conclusion, it'll be 10 years before I break even. Swaps always seem to be a money loosing venture.

 

[Combat Chuck]

I still believe that if you own a Cruiser, you shouldn't even dream about speed.
I do 55 on I5 all the time, just find a Semi and take my ease, 26MPG, and The Mule doesn't deafen me. My preference is to avoid the big roads altogether, which makes for a more fun, more interesting, and much more relaxed drive.

Finally, The State of California needs to take a pill. 'Nuff said.

To add to the argument, nothing beats the reliability of EFI and in some states, the only way to legally get EFI is to swap a complete engine from the same year or newer. This means you can NOT just swap a TBI unit onto a 2F.

There is also the whole making the drivetrain match the driving condition/style. A 2F doesn't lend itself to reasonable freeway speeds. Sure, you could do 55mph on a freeway but when the predominate speed is 75mph, you become an accident waiting to happen.

On my old FJ40, I swapped from a great/strong running 2F to a 5.0L TBI. I did this because this was the ONLY smog legal way to get EFI onto my 1975 Calif Cruiser in the mid 90s. I needed the EFI for rock crawling. The V8 also helped get my freeway cruising range to 65mph. At the time I was daily driving it.

On my current FJ55, I swapped out an unknown 2F for a 6.0L Vortec. As a 1971, it is smog exempt in Calif so that wasn't a consideration on my choice. However, before the engine install and all the resulting "issues", my rig was being designed for medium duty offroading, daily driving, and towing. So again, EFI was mandatory for me. While the 2F is "strong", I didn't feel it would be suited for towing.

When/if I do another FJ40 project, I will be looking into a Turbo EFI 2F with stock transmission(H41), a doubler, and an orion.

To me, I find it is hypocritical that people think it is the engine that makes a cruiser a cruiser and not all the other easily visible characteristics: offset axles, bubbly front fenders, gently curved rear fenders, etc. I'm more insulted by the guy who says his 2F with Cruiser bib is more of a cruiser than a full bodied rig with a V8

 

[Combat Chuck]

Now you are starting an argument about comforts while wheeling.

Can you do wheeling without power steering? Absolutely. But if you are doing remotely hard wheeling without, you will feel like you went a round with Mike Tyson.

Can your rig be safe without disc brakes? Absolutely. But drum brakes do not clear crap out of them well. And adjusting them every other month becomes tedious.

Can you wheel without lower gearing? Absolutely. But constantly restarting a rig when it stalls or riding the hell out of the clutch sucks. Nothing like replacing a clutch in ~70k miles

Personally, I wheel for fun, not to get beat the hell out of. I've rock crawled an FJ40 bone stock with 31s(Fordyce trail) I spent more time getting beat up than enjoying the trail. I had issues with the drum brakes getting crap in them. I had issues with armstrong steering.

I never once brought up power steering or disc brakes. Personally, I think discs are common sense, 40-series drums are a nightmare-and-a-half when they get tired. And the steering center-arm? Unmaintained, it's a pile-up waiting to happen.
Let's end the P/S and disc-brake discussion, it's irrelevant to the F-series motor.

Finally, what's wheeling? It's a broad, ethereal term that needs to be quantified.
On this board, wheeling's been noted as anything from rock-crawling to light trail-riding, what exactly are we discussing when discussing "wheeling"?

 

[cjgoode]

Its one thing to change stuff for better wheeling or driving, but a lot of people change stuff because something on the Internet said you had to. If was going to do serious off roading in the mud the F series would be gone, as well as the drums front and back. The High RPM's would kill the engine anyway.

 

[Combat Chuck]

Its one thing to change stuff for better wheeling or driving, but a lot of people change stuff because something on the Internet said you had to. If was going to do serious off roading in the mud the F series would be gone, as well as the drums front and back. The High RPM's would kill the engine anyway.

Very true. If I just wanted to go out and stomp rocks, I'd swap in an SBC because I'd care less if I broke it.

Also for the sake of moving things on:
I am not a purist.
I've got modification plans of my own, I respect the purists out there who spend so much time and energy making something as close to factory as they can; but there are some things to a 40 that do need a little... help. The purpose of this discussion is not to inspire a reactionary charge back toward fundamental cruiserdom, but to make known the hidden disadvantages of the ubiquitous SBC swap. There is no perfect upgrade, there is only a balance to positive and negative features; Toyota achieved this balance with the original FJ40 chemistry, but the standards have changed, what other balances are the before we are forced to remove our Toyota badges from our Cruisers?

 

[DSRTRDR]

I do 55 on I5 all the time, just find a Semi and take my ease, 26MPG, and The Mule doesn't deafen me.

my cruiser is the loudest at 55 - damn Flowmaster

I practically have to go faster

 

[My wife said no FJ!]

The biggest problem I have with an old F, is that I keep hearing of people using their F135 engines as boat anchors, and chucking them out, and I am looking a couple to actually use in a rig...and can't find any

 

[bikersmurf]

The biggest problem I have with an old F, is that I keep hearing of people using their F135 engines as boat anchors, and chucking them out, and I am looking a couple to actually use in a rig...and can't find any

Too bad you're in the East, I could get you two (well 2Fs anyway). One is selling with Tranny and t-case for $150, and the other is in a rig that's being scr@pped... guy wants $300 for whats left including axles, drivetrain, and a ton of other stuff.

I just don't have the space.

Just saw your "true restoration", so I guess a 2F isnt what you're looking for anyways.

 

[rusty_tlc]

...
To throw another monkey into the pile I got to thinking about something (saucy feeling) Combat Chuck said regarding losing something that made the vehicles unique and gave them character when folks make the above calculation and opt for a small block 350. For those who have made the Chevy decision or ar thinking about it now what if any consideration did you give to the:
1) 1FZ-FE (Toyota 6 cyl from 70 and 80 series)
2) 3FE (Toyota 6cyl from 60,70,and 80 series)
3) 2UZ-FE (Toyota 8cyl from 80/100(?) series, Tundra and Sequoia)

As I said at the outset not a gasser guy, but the 1FZ-FE and 3FE were supposed to be the Toyota replacements for the F, F1.5, 2F series of engines. The 2UZ-FE at least on paper looks interesting. These came in vehicles from 1990 - 2005 such that they SHOULD all be able to be found in salvage yards in NA. All three are current production (?) Toyota engines so parts should be available through the dealership. As such in terms of aquisition of engine costs and parts availibility they should be in the decision mix. Are folks considering these engines as F series replacements? If not why not? Again not questioning anyones decision to swap engines or to rebuild what they have or to go Toyota or Chevy, as I said I'm a diesel guy who has always been curious about this topic and Combat Chuck's post got me to post this thread.

Good luck finding an adaptors to connect any of those engines to an H41,H42,H55 transmission. It's all going to be custom machine work which, unless you have your own machine shop, is going to be very $$$$$.

The SBC swap has been done approximately 200,000,000 times, all the parts are easy to find and relatively cheap to get. There are enough write-ups on the interwebs to fill a wing at the national library. There is a lot to be said for taking the path more traveled sometimes.

 

[rusty_tlc]

If I ever do a swap it would be to add range, the 2F just doesn't get very good gas mileage compared to a SBC. The 2F in my 84 FJ60 will probably go as soon as I can afford it, it's just to anemic for that large a truck.

As far as disk brakes and power steering go, those are two mods I wish I had done to my FJ40 15 years ago. Just because these trucks came with drums all around and manual steering doesn't mean an improvement won't help make them more enjoyable to drive.

 

[MAD40er]

If I ever do a swap it would be to add range, the 2F just doesn't get very good gas mileage compared to a SBC.

Say what now?

A well tuned 2F with a good carb can get you 15MPG. Are you telling me that a 350 can get closer to 20MPG?

Please explain.

I can understand the statement about a 60 series, but we are discussing this in the 40-55 series forum?

 

[GarageRat]

You're trying to rephrase what I said, I never ONCE said that the toyota parts were not good. Nor did I say that anyone NEEDS a muncie. Noone NEEDS a 40 or to drive offroad period. I wheel with a guy that had an H42 behind his 2F for years and eventually he decided he wanted an SM465/203/cruiser combo after wheeling moab and smoking his clutch so we installed it and he's happy with it. In fact I believe I even stated that I have a J30 AND a W56 in addition to the SM465 in my garage.

For me it was cheaper to swap a motor than to find an F, bring it home, tear it apart to make sure it's good for a daily driver, and rebuild it. I didn't buy runners with either of my cruisers. Grand total for my pontiac swap was under a grand since I had just rebuilt the motor for a previous vehicle and I have less than 3 grand in the entire thing including the paint I'm finishing up on it. I do all my own work and frankly if I didn't I probably wouldn't be in this hobby due to cost.

My main point was what makes the motor more essential to the experience than the rest? Brakes and steering are just as essential to the driving experience, if changing the motor is taboo then why shouldn't the rest of the drivetrain be? I find being able to keep up with traffic as much of a safety issue as stopping and steering. I have both spectrums in the works, my '63 is basically stock except for the motor and a 2 1/2" lift I had in my parts pile and my '69 is a crawler in progress with an fj60 front mini hybrid rear (read: TOYOTA) and a w56/gear tc (TOYOTA).

You're focusing on little details to try to prove a point. I'm not attacking you, I frankly couldn't care less what you do with your vehicles.

Volcano: I looked into all the options for my crawler, for the cost to benefit I found that a chevy was still a better option for me. If a 2UZ was less expensive and easier to obtain in my area it'd be a horse race between it and an LSx. They're all cool motors, the Atlas 4.2 GM is another I'd like to see more of.

1. The SM420/465 are great for crawling, but they're horrific for daily driving...

 

[riderjgs]

To sum up...SBC is cheaper to buy and maintain, weighs less, has more horsepower, gets better gas mileage, provides more aftermarket options, has more support and has a history with Cruisers that dates back almost half a century. No quarrels with those who love the F engines. To each his own. After owning it for 3+ years, I finally got rid of a 40 I bought brand spankin' new in '73 after a series of engine issues, despite religious dealer maintenance. Got back into Cruisers a couple of years ago and all four since then have been SBC with other upgrades like discs, power steering and 4spds. Just bought a Ranger odrive for my latest, again because of simplicity and low cost relative to other options to make it usable on and off road. I'm willing to bet 90% of Cruisers still on/off road are modified to some degree.

 

[tucker74]

Good luck finding an adaptors to connect any of those engines to an H41,H42,H55 transmission. It's all going to be custom machine work which, unless you have your own machine shop, is going to be very $$$$$.

Actually only the 2UZ is hard to mate, the 3F bellhousing will bolt up to any of them and you can buy a stock bellhousing from a 70 series that will mate the 1FZ

The adapters for GM stuff aren't cheap either ... unless you can find them used -

Tucker

 

[rusty_tlc]

Say what now?

A well tuned 2F with a good carb can get you 15MPG. Are you telling me that a 350 can get closer to 20MPG?

Please explain.

I can understand the statement about a 60 series, but we are discussing this in the 40-55 series forum?

Running side by side with other FJ40's that are similar except for the power plant the SBC guys go further on a tank of gas. This is my real world experience.


The title is "whats wrong with the F engines" not whats wrong with the F engines in the FJ40&45

However, the same argument that applies to the 60 also holds for the 40, when I get my truck loaded with spare parts and gear for a four day trip it dogs on grades. Kind of sucks when you live in an area with lots of big mountains.


Understand I have no plans on replacing the 2F in my FJ40, I love lugging along on the trail at some ridiculous low RPM. The only reason I would pull it out is if it blew up. As long as I keep changing the once every year or two that should be a long time from now.

 

[rusty_tlc]

Actually only the 2UZ is hard to mate, the 3F bellhousing will bolt up to any of them and you can buy a stock bellhousing from a 70 series that will mate the 1FZ

The adapters for GM stuff aren't cheap either ... unless you can find them used -

Tucker

I thought the autos used a different bell housing, didn't know about the 70 bell housing.

 

[My wife said no FJ!]

Too bad you're in the East, I could get you two (well 2Fs anyway). One is selling with Tranny and t-case for $150, and the other is in a rig that's being scr@pped... guy wants $300 for whats left including axles, drivetrain, and a ton of other stuff.

I just don't have the space.

Just saw your "true restoration", so I guess a 2F isnt what you're looking for anyways.

I appreciate the thought

I was offered a couple, a few years ago...all I had to do was go and get them, but they were in CA