I am getting rid of my carb'd chevy engine (its old and needs a rebuild) and putting in a 3FE. I wanted to go back to Toyota drivetrain, and also wanted FI.
I am looking forward to it.
I am looking forward to it.
So what's wrong with the F engines
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Bringing this thread back to life...
When the time comes, and you could use some help from the North Bay, drop me a line! I can also run pickup for parts at Mudrak's of you need parts moved.
One aspect to this thread that I failed to remain sufficiently level-headed on, and found myself somewhat wrapped up in the gestalt of this topic is: as we've discovered, there is no cost-effective pure-bred Toyota option; however, what of other non-Government Motors parts?
I briefly touched onto Cummins as an option, and I'd like to elaborate on this possible subject. Cummins tickles my fancy in a 40 because:
- An entire parts truck can be sourced for a fair price, and mutually beneficial because parts not used can be resold.
- Availability of replacement parts are ample, and Cummins has a reputation of outstanding customer service
- Very nice power-to-weight-ratio, as we see in 4-cylinder 4BTA's hauling around big delivery vans
- Reliability, shoot their motors are just so simple, and foolproof that, well cared-for, will outlive anything else in our lineup.
- Electrical simplicity, These things have no ECU, or later ones have a simple one. The most sought-after generation is pre-ECU, which further simplifies the swap
- No Carb! C'mon, we all have had problems with even the best-tuned carb. As long as the injection pump's solid, then: no off-camber issues, no sticky accelerator pump, cracked diaphragms, or plugged up EGR ports.
-Off-idle torque. How awesome is an engine that pretty much throttles itself into first, and acts as its own reduction gear?
- No Smog! Just file a change of motive power form with the DMV, get the rig inspected, and you never have to smog again.
- Broad fuel options, Diesel, bio, SVO, WVO, shoot pretty much melted cheese will run one of these things.
- that amazing diesel sound. I'm gonna get up on a soapbox here and say: If you don't like that sound, you clearly smoke crack, and huff paint, while performing autoerotic asphyxiation.
The biggest down-sides seem to be:
- It's still a swap. Swaps will never be cheap, or cost-effective, but if you have no motor to begin with, this is an option that is in cost between a small-block, and something a great deal more expensive.
- Adapters are scarce. I still haven't found a H55 adapter, which would be my transmission of choice. (not a fan of the NV4500.) I would consider the AA Cummins adapter with a Ranger between the H55, but then there would be driveline slop in a SWB 40, but may work in a 45 or 43
I'm considering this as a possible swap when I start my fat 43 project.
Another consideration I'm mulling over is an Isuzu. My neighbor runs an NPR truck for his Modular-home restoration company, and that thing is gutsy! There is a strong aftermarket following for said motor, and the AISIN transmission can be modded to accept an FJ60/62/80 tailhousing and output shaft. A GM Bellhousing adapter can be found, and used to run an NV4500 - or the previously mentioned Ranger/H55F (A combination that may be better off in say an LV, or troopy.)
Beyond that, there's Ferd. I enjoyed Mace's Bob build, and I'll attest to the reliability of a Big-Block Ford V8 with early EFI. Their auto transmissions are kind of a crap-shoot, but a V8 and Borg-Warner 5-speed's an an impressive rig.
GarageRat also mentioned BPO motors. The Oldsmobile 442 was my first love, and it would be neat to run an Olds V8. It's got a higher deck-height than a small-block motor, which means more compression, and rumors abound that BPO workmanship is better than GM corporate hardware. the big catch there is finding an adapter to mate the motor to a bellhousing that can accept a commonly swappable transmission. Parts availability is tricky at times, but there are groups dedicated to keeping the good GM cars alive, I have no doubt there can be pieces sourced. I'm also looking into the possibility of cross-compatible parts. - I'll share my results.
I am getting rid of my carb'd chevy engine (its old and needs a rebuild) and putting in a 3FE. I wanted to go back to Toyota drivetrain, and also wanted FI.
I am looking forward to it.
When the time comes, and you could use some help from the North Bay, drop me a line! I can also run pickup for parts at Mudrak's of you need parts moved.
One aspect to this thread that I failed to remain sufficiently level-headed on, and found myself somewhat wrapped up in the gestalt of this topic is: as we've discovered, there is no cost-effective pure-bred Toyota option; however, what of other non-Government Motors parts?
I briefly touched onto Cummins as an option, and I'd like to elaborate on this possible subject. Cummins tickles my fancy in a 40 because:
- An entire parts truck can be sourced for a fair price, and mutually beneficial because parts not used can be resold.
- Availability of replacement parts are ample, and Cummins has a reputation of outstanding customer service
- Very nice power-to-weight-ratio, as we see in 4-cylinder 4BTA's hauling around big delivery vans
- Reliability, shoot their motors are just so simple, and foolproof that, well cared-for, will outlive anything else in our lineup.
- Electrical simplicity, These things have no ECU, or later ones have a simple one. The most sought-after generation is pre-ECU, which further simplifies the swap
- No Carb! C'mon, we all have had problems with even the best-tuned carb. As long as the injection pump's solid, then: no off-camber issues, no sticky accelerator pump, cracked diaphragms, or plugged up EGR ports.
-Off-idle torque. How awesome is an engine that pretty much throttles itself into first, and acts as its own reduction gear?
- No Smog! Just file a change of motive power form with the DMV, get the rig inspected, and you never have to smog again.
- Broad fuel options, Diesel, bio, SVO, WVO, shoot pretty much melted cheese will run one of these things.
- that amazing diesel sound. I'm gonna get up on a soapbox here and say: If you don't like that sound, you clearly smoke crack, and huff paint, while performing autoerotic asphyxiation.
The biggest down-sides seem to be:
- It's still a swap. Swaps will never be cheap, or cost-effective, but if you have no motor to begin with, this is an option that is in cost between a small-block, and something a great deal more expensive.
- Adapters are scarce. I still haven't found a H55 adapter, which would be my transmission of choice. (not a fan of the NV4500.) I would consider the AA Cummins adapter with a Ranger between the H55, but then there would be driveline slop in a SWB 40, but may work in a 45 or 43
I'm considering this as a possible swap when I start my fat 43 project.
Another consideration I'm mulling over is an Isuzu. My neighbor runs an NPR truck for his Modular-home restoration company, and that thing is gutsy! There is a strong aftermarket following for said motor, and the AISIN transmission can be modded to accept an FJ60/62/80 tailhousing and output shaft. A GM Bellhousing adapter can be found, and used to run an NV4500 - or the previously mentioned Ranger/H55F (A combination that may be better off in say an LV, or troopy.)
Beyond that, there's Ferd. I enjoyed Mace's Bob build, and I'll attest to the reliability of a Big-Block Ford V8 with early EFI. Their auto transmissions are kind of a crap-shoot, but a V8 and Borg-Warner 5-speed's an an impressive rig.
GarageRat also mentioned BPO motors. The Oldsmobile 442 was my first love, and it would be neat to run an Olds V8. It's got a higher deck-height than a small-block motor, which means more compression, and rumors abound that BPO workmanship is better than GM corporate hardware. the big catch there is finding an adapter to mate the motor to a bellhousing that can accept a commonly swappable transmission. Parts availability is tricky at times, but there are groups dedicated to keeping the good GM cars alive, I have no doubt there can be pieces sourced. I'm also looking into the possibility of cross-compatible parts. - I'll share my results.
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To adapt the BOP motor it's as simple as obtaining a BOP to muncie bellhousing, then all the same adapters that work on the chebby stuff fits the BOP stuff (I saw a plate adapter to fit the Toyota 4 speed to a muncie bell on ebay a few weeks ago). It is not difficult to adapt a chevy bell to a BOP pattern block either, if anyone is interested I've done this exact thing with a spare bell since I didn't want to wait on a BOP piece and can take pics. All that is required is to cut for the starter on the driver side and to make a plate adapter (or buy one) that catches the two top ears of the block.
Parts are easier than Toyota stuff to source, though not as easy as Chevy. Any high performance shop will stock BOP parts since we're a rising contingent in the drag racing area.
Nothing motor specific is cross compatible but things like radiators will work fine. The motors are a little better designed in my opinion with beefier blocks, though the lifter bores aren't very well supported from the factory if you run an extreme valvetrain. Cooling wise they are superior to small and big blocks with a more efficient design path. They are generally wider than a small block and are a TIGHT fit with the factory steering box. Exhaust is another interesting issue that requires creativity.
Below is a picture of my Pontiac 400 conversion from a few months ago when I'd first dropped it in.
I like my 2F. It runs good, pulls steep trails and gets me to work every day. I have made some mods to it because it is not a good candidate for restoration. Things like power steering and stuff like that. A long time ago I sold my first fj40 and kicked myself in the *** for doing that ever since. I always missed the sound of the engine and the noisy transmission.
Lets' face it, the inline six is a timeless design. I have an F and also I have a Cummins Six in a dodge. For the person who likes reliability,simplicity, and longevity, this design is it. The Cummins 4 also is wonderful. I do like the gasoline engines but if I could , I would have Cummins build engines for everything.
Since you mention it the Toyota six is pretty much a direct copy of the Chevy six of the same era. I've even heard that it was built under license from GMC.
So it's not a huge leap to the SBC V-8 from there.
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The Chev 292 is in my opinion the best Chevrolet Motor they've made, I've talked to many owners who're running a strong dump truck-six in a still-factory condition. These are never fast engines, but they're tough, like an F, and they develop a strong cult-like following.
Heck, my ex-girlfriend's dad and brother hot-rodded a 292 with a homebrew side-draft intake, 3 carbs, headers, ported head. By the time I'd come along, the intake was all that was left: it produced too much top-end power, and blew the #6 rod through the oilpan.
And you are right, Rusty, my understanding is that Toyota and GM partnered up early in Toyota's life; with the intent that GM could go all Engulf and Devour on Toyota, as they'd just done several similar occasions. The war, among other things, halted this process. I'm sure JohnnyC will have the correct history, though.
When I said the inline six was a timeless design, I did not give credit to any one company. Inline designs in general have their place and longevity is one of many. I spent some time abroad and had a chance to drive a toyota LC with an inline 4 diesel and it also was great. I really wish that we had a history of those here in the US as these gas prices climb. Also, had the transmission and gearing been engineered better to accept the power of the six, maybe the v8 would not have had such an impact on these.
I also had a Ford Van with a 300 C.I. six and wish I still had it?
I also had a Ford Van with a 300 C.I. six and wish I still had it?