So what's wrong with the F engines (1 Viewer)

[65swb45]

Heck, this could go down as my most controversial post....ever!



In my 25 years of hanging out with cruiserheads, I'd have to say that a lot of the people who swear allegiance to the F engine were just fortunate enough to have a running one when they bought the truck, and have had access to affordable spares along the way, so they've kept their rigs running 'on the cheap.' Theirs is an allegiance of convenience.

And I think there are a lot of guys [and gals] who swear allegiance to the F who are really just hedging their bets on resale value by keeping a stock engine in their rigs. Theirs is an allegiance of economics.

And then there are those who keep 'em stock because they're afraid of how fast a SBC conversion can tear up the rest of the powertrain, negating the cost savings of a swap. Theirs is an allegiance of fear.

Sooooo, IMO, the crowd of 'true' believers in the F series engines is even smaller than it appears.

I will also admit that even tho I run F engines in all my rigs, NONE of the ones I have rebuilt were stock. I'm just as curious, and just as much a tinkerer as the next guy. The second F145 engine I rebuilt for Ruftoys [the first was really just a patch job with a welded crank] was crazy fast, pushing 180psi[ which is high for an F], and could hold it's own with the SBC. It lasted 3 weeks! A less hopped -up version of this engine is still running in Ruftoys.

The balanced and blueprinted F135 in the lwb45 is smooth as silk with 70k on the rebuild, and would have adequate power if I hadn't added 1400# of accessories to the truck! If I ever end up modernizing to a 2F, it will prolly be in this truck, and specifically because of the weight. The 45 I just finished for FJ45Dude [with a rebuilt 2F] really impressed me. Then again, he doesn't have the extra weight in it yet.

The balanced and blueprinted F145 in the karma cruiser is nothing short of amazing! Power to spare, witnessed by many, 40mph in 1st gear, and 17mpg! This motor has reignited my interest in building F engines, and I'm looking forward to getting the F.5 from Matzell in a couple of months to start a new project with.

F engines are just intriguing. Their old-school, just like me.

 

[cjgoode]

I just love the sound of a 1F, reminds me of my first car ever an fj40 back when I was in high school. I start that 1f up and memories of off roading in high school just pore back in.

 

[shelfboy1]

nothing wrong with the f series engines,if you buy a 40 and add chevy engine and running gear its a chevy with a toyota body, why no just drive a blazer?this debate will go on forever.

 

[bikersmurf]

I like the sound of a dual exhaust 350... But I really miss the sound of my .5 F.

Something wholesome about the sound of an F.







Shelfboy, do you have a problem with my blazer... Even though it only has FF land cruiser axles under it.

 

[Combat Chuck]

There is not a thing wrong with going to a V8, it just seems that many folks are losing faith in the F series motor, and it's alarming. It deserves a better reputation than some stepping stone on the way to Chevotadom.

 

[Combat Chuck]

I appreciate the thought

I was offered a couple, a few years ago...all I had to do was go and get them, but they were in CA

And I somehow missed this? Dang, that would have been a great score!

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Actually only the 2UZ is hard to mate, the 3F bellhousing will bolt up to any of them and you can buy a stock bellhousing from a 70 series that will mate the 1FZ The adapters for GM stuff aren't cheap either ... unless you can find them used -Tucker

Given the above and not currently living in the NA market is there really a scarcity of used or wrecked 80s (1FZ-FE and 3FE) which ran these engines? I get that 60 wrecks might be scarce anywhere. I see alot of engines that have been salvaged from vehicles that are 15yo or younger in this region, sorry all diesels, gasers aren't popular in 4x4s here. I guess that I just thought that there would be more modern Toyota Gas engines out there on the salvage market.

Heck, this could go down as my most controversial post....ever!



In my 25 years of hanging out with cruiserheads, I'd have to say that a lot of the people who swear allegiance to the F engine were just fortunate enough to have a running one when they bought the truck, and have had access to affordable spares along the way, so they've kept their rigs running 'on the cheap.' Theirs is an allegiance of convenience.

And I think there are a lot of guys [and gals] who swear allegiance to the F who are really just hedging their bets on resale value by keeping a stock engine in their rigs. Theirs is an allegiance of economics.

And then there are those who keep 'em stock because they're afraid of how fast a SBC conversion can tear up the rest of the powertrain, negating the cost savings of a swap. Theirs is an allegiance of fear.

Sooooo, IMO, the crowd of 'true' believers in the F series engines is even smaller than it appears.

I will also admit that even tho I run F engines in all my rigs, NONE of the ones I have rebuilt were stock. I'm just as curious, and just as much a tinkerer as the next guy. The second F145 engine I rebuilt for Ruftoys [the first was really just a patch job with a welded crank] was crazy fast, pushing 180psi[ which is high for an F], and could hold it's own with the SBC. It lasted 3 weeks! A less hopped -up version of this engine is still running in Ruftoys.

The balanced and blueprinted F135 in the lwb45 is smooth as silk with 70k on the rebuild, and would have adequate power if I hadn't added 1400# of accessories to the truck! If I ever end up modernizing to a 2F, it will prolly be in this truck, and specifically because of the weight. The 45 I just finished for FJ45Dude [with a rebuilt 2F] really impressed me. Then again, he doesn't have the extra weight in it yet.

The balanced and blueprinted F145 in the karma cruiser is nothing short of amazing! Power to spare, witnessed by many, 40mph in 1st gear, and 17mpg! This motor has reignited my interest in building F engines, and I'm looking forward to getting the F.5 from Matzell in a couple of months to start a new project with.

F engines are just intriguing. Their old-school, just like me.

Excellent post, while I may not agree with every word, very well written.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

BTW, this thread wasn't setup to generate a purist v. modifier debate. I think the idea was to try to get to the bottom of why folks seem to ditch the F engines at the first chance they get, hence the title, what's wrong with the F... While as, Dan points, out the SBC route is well worn and known and has it's adherents I'd still like to circle back to the modern Toyota gasser bit. If the engines aren't available or up to par with the SBC for your application then that's the answer. Are there more folks who have worked that part of the analysis? This is very similar to the modern Toyota diesel v. Cummins v. old school Toy diesel debates that go on over in the disesl forum.

 

[tucker74]

I see alot of engines that have been salvaged from vehicles that are 15yo or younger in this region, sorry all diesels, gasers aren't popular in 4x4s here.

I wish we were in the same boat, lots of folks go with diesel swaps ... but it costs a small fortune here in the states

Tucker

 

[msapers]

I have street driven and wheeled a lot of different engines

and it really comes down to the kind of driving you do. Personally, I don't rock crawl. I like to climb hills and take trails to interesting places. Therefore I don't need 90 inches of suspension travel, 800 hp and a 9000:1 crawl ratio.

Then again, I've been wheeling for a while and I have worked my way up the HP scale slowly. When you've daily driven and frequently wheeled 22R's ('83 SR5), Willys F134's ('51 Willys wagon), Willys Hurricane 6's ('54 Willys wagon), Chrysler Industrial flathead 6's ('65 Dodge M37), Jeep 258's ('85 Cj7), etc... you learn how to drive a low revving engine and discover that the F and 2F are actually pretty peppy.

However, if you're coming to 'Cruisers from more modern vehicles and expecting it to perform like those more modern vehicles, I can see where the whole rig would feel archaic.

I've owned two F powered FJ40's and one 350 powered one. They all did well when driven according to what the vehicle was.

My next '40 will be a total re-creation of my Dad's '75 freom when I was a kid. That one will get the 2F.

As for towing...think of the F and 2F as a safety feature. They won't let you tow anything you shouldn't be towing with your "40.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

I wish we were in the same boat, lots of folks go with diesel swaps ... but it costs a small fortune here in the states

Tucker

Tucker,
Understood. That's why the flow of this thread focussed me in on the modern Toyota gasser alternatives to the F v. SBC option. Dan made some really good points here, among them that the F to SBC swap has been done over 200k times and there is something to be said for following a tested route. That said it appears that there are modern Toyota gas alternatives in the 1FZ-FE 3FE to the F to SBC swap that maybe were available 10 or 15 years ago. I guess my question is are they really alternative choices? Randomn examples that I found:

3FE in a 40
1976 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40 - Toyota 3FE Engine - 4 Wheel Drive & Sport Utility Magazine

1FZ-FE going into a 40
Fj40 - PakWheels Forums



A quick google search for the 1FZ-FE, 3FE came up with this site and these prices: (gotta scroll down to the 6 cyl matrix)
Toyota Remanufactured Engines


John

 

[cjgoode]

Towing anything heavy with a short wheel base vehicle is a safety hazard, as well as driving them at high speeds. You can get them to handle well in a straight line at over 55 mph but if you have to swerve at that speed it is not going to end well. I like the built in safety feature theory.

 

[GarageRat]

Heck, this could go down as my most controversial post....ever!

180 psi? that's a lot compared to stock.

Mark I figure you'd probably know this, didn't Con-Ferr actually do small block swaps for dealerships in the early 70s?

 

[JohnnyC]

180 psi? that's a lot compared to stock.

Mark I figure you'd probably know this, didn't Con-Ferr actually do small block swaps for dealerships in the early 70s?

he was a toyota dealer at one time

https://forum.ih8mud.com/fj25-owners-group/351433-pete-condos-frank-ferro-con-ferr.html

 

[Pighead]

Theirs is an allegiance of convenience.

Theirs is an allegiance of economics.

Theirs is an allegiance of fear.

Some of us are just stubborn cusses who know what we like. I'm on my 4th iteration of an F in my Pig...
1) The stock F.5
2) a rebuilt '72 F while I had the F.5 rebuilt (between smog checks)
3) The bored & balanced F.5 (built by Warden's)
4) A built, bored & balanced 2F with my original F.5 head (built by me)(once I was no longer smog-checked)

It's been neither cheap nor convenient.

But, I like what I know. And I know this engine.
Sure, there are times when I wish I had V8 (climbing freeway on-ramps), but there are times (climbing Cadillac hill) when I'm really glad I have the straight 6.
And, I love the sound of a built V8...But, my 6 has been mistaken for a V8 (at idle).
I'm gonna stick with what I know, 'cause I know it'll always get me home.

 

[subzali]

Given the above and not currently living in the NA market is there really a scarcity of used or wrecked 80s (1FZ-FE and 3FE) which ran these engines? I get that 60 wrecks might be scarce anywhere. I see alot of engines that have been salvaged from vehicles that are 15yo or younger in this region, sorry all diesels, gasers aren't popular in 4x4s here. I guess that I just thought that there would be more modern Toyota Gas engines out there on the salvage market.

I think it's mostly price. Yes there are 80s, 100s, Sequoias and Tundras in the bone yards but the parts are still going to be quite a bit more expensive than SBC equipment. It also has to do with the fact that F-series engines have been swapped out for carbureted SBC engines since the 70s probably, and the more current TBI and now multi-port injected Vortec/LS engines are just progressions of that. The 1FZ is "only" 18 years old, the 2UZ-FE is "only" 13 years old. I suppose people figure if they are going to have to figure out motor mounts, adapters, and electronics anyway they might as well go with something that's already been done many times (SBC variants) and is still going to have more power out of the box. And did I mention price?

Me personally, I love the tractor motor 2F. I just like the way it drives, and I like the way it handles the trail. Mine is original to my truck, so I'm going to try to have it balanced, blueprinted, and freshened up at some point to keep it going for many more miles. That said, I don't mind making changes to other parts of the 40 - I did a 60 ps conversion, thinking about headers, rear discs, etc. at some point.

However, I am thinking about a 2F-E for another project. And there's always the allure of diesel engines. I personally don't see the need for a lot of horsepower in these vehicles; I can keep up with traffic just fine (with about 110psi on the cylinders at 5000 feet) even when I probably shouldn't. If I wanted to get a 1FZ-FE (which I do, I think it's a neat engine too), then I'd like to just get an FZJ80 or something. And I have the 2UZ-FE in my Tundra; it's an ok engine but it's really not anything great. It's only like 287 cubic inches and makes about 245 hp. Whoopee.

 

[FJforty]

Climbing mountain roads and the whole rig starts to vibrate as the RPMs drop way down and the 2F just keeps on pullin, I like that, especialy when it starts to sound tractor like. A V8 does not do that like a straight 6.

 

[GarageRat]

he was a toyota dealer at one time

https://forum.ih8mud.com/fj25-owners-group/351433-pete-condos-frank-ferro-con-ferr.html

Thanks Johnny! Like usual I am seriously impressed by your knowledge. That's an early 40 too, looks to be an early to mid 60's with the lack of heater vent and flappy windshield. Wonder if any of them still exist...kinda like a yenko, baldwin-motion, or nickey (dealer/factory specials worth MUCHO money in GM circles) version of an FJ40.

So we can just say all the small block guys are building Con-Ferr clones

 

[rusty_tlc]

BTW, this thread wasn't setup to generate a purist v. modifier debate. I think the idea was to try to get to the bottom of why folks seem to ditch the F engines at the first chance they get, hence the title, what's wrong with the F... While as, Dan points, out the SBC route is well worn and known and has it's adherents I'd still like to circle back to the modern Toyota gasser bit. If the engines aren't available or up to par with the SBC for your application then that's the answer. Are there more folks who have worked that part of the analysis? This is very similar to the modern Toyota diesel v. Cummins v. old school Toy diesel debates that go on over in the disesl forum.

I love the V8 in my 100, I don't think it's that newer engines are not up to par. I think the answer lies in the electronics. One of the problems with adapting the newer Toyota engines is hacking the ECU. Unlike a SBC you can't get a crate version of a 2UZ-FE*, and very few people are interested in designing and building a stand alone ECU for it. It's pretty tough to get one of these engines to run after you start hacking off all the sensors and systems they were designed to run with. On the other hand there are tons of after market ECU's available for Chevy engines since they are used in everything from 1/4 milers to jet boats.


*I believe there was a boat manufacturer who used the 2UZ-FE but they are pretty rare.

 

[BC40]

While they are still running well, nothing really wrong with F engines.

I replaced my tired F with a 2F because I had a good running 2F from a parts truck. My F would have needed a lot of money thrown at it and it just didn't make sense, it was a PO replacement of the original anyways.

Looking back the only thing wrong with going 2F has been its fuel consumption. Power output feels adequate at best, though very nice on the trail. But I wish I went diesel; just wasn't in the cards at the time.