Sloppy handling and engine noises (1 Viewer)

[bmorgan]

I now have two 80s which is bad and good. Good since I've been working on mine for so long, the newer 80 (wife's) is that much easier for me to fix and i have parts laying around. Bad because I can compare and I'm finding out my 95 might not be in as good a shape as I thought. The 95 has 173k and the other is a 97 with 207k. All stock, but my 95 has some minor modifications (33s... minor stuff - but I have plans, of course.)

Sloppy Handling: 12 years old and 173k miles - shocks are toast. I'm eyeballing the OME 2.5" mediums but the steering is sloppy. There is at least 4 inches of play in the steering. I sometimes feel like something is going to come loose. I have checked and rechecked the bearings. Everything seems to be holding (I've rebuilt the front end so many time - damn those steering studs.) I do need another rebuild on the passenger side, but the leak is minor and everything is tight. I caught those studs coming out for the second time. They are getting loctite this time - I'm tired of it.

I don't think I see any leak coming from the PS gearbox. I used to have a leak in that system that I never found (it would whine and I'd have to top it off) - but it seems to have stopped. All I really did was replace the pipe clamp coming out of the reservoir. I have a new pump and high pressure hoses on the shelf. I also have the Edelmann gearbox rebuild kit (it was cheap) and the equipment to pull the pitman, but I can't find any information that rebuiding the gearbox or replacing the pump will fix the sloppy steering. I have read about the adjustment screw, but over 4 inches seems like a lot. Could it just be my suspension (I'm guessing namely the steering damper)? Or should I do a PS Gearbox rebuild? Or just the PS pump? Or can this be adjusted out?

I keep thinking that I should go completely through the steering first since installing new suspension can create steering changes (caster correction). But I'd like someone to tell me if that's right or it's probably just my worn out 21 year old stock suspension. Is there a suggested order to replacing this stuff? I do have almost everything I need for the PS rebuild. I have not ordered the suspension (I sometimes talk myself out of the 2.5 so I don't have to correct caster - just do a stock with 30mm spacers - but I think I'm sold on the 2.5.) I'm ready to get on this as soon as this hot weather breaks.

Engine noises - Now I know my 95 sounds different. I know I have an oil leak. For the longest time I thought it was the PS pump leaking, but now it looks like it's the distributor o-ring and/or the VC gasket. Only recently was it enough to tell it was motor oil. It's now lightly spraying over to the battery box. It's not enough to make me top off the oil. I have those gaskets on order (plus spark plug tube gaskets), but this is where the comparison between 80s comes in. The 97 is a higher mileage but newer engine and it sounds so much smoother than my 95. The 95 has more of a whirring sound - kinda like the sound you hear in the cabin on a airplane at altitude, if that makes sense. The 97 sounds clean and quiet. Could that be a bearing? But the 95 has always made this noise - for over 10 years. Recently it started running really rough at idle, but I'm going to do a tuneup (valve adjustment, new spark plugs, wires, rotor and cap, etc.) I know that's tough to diagnose, but anyone have any thoughts? Oh and it also started to sometimes make a light knocking sound before warming up. I was thinking it might be the PS pump slapping, but I'm not sure anymore. The knock is rev dependent, light, and doesn't hit on every rotation. Then it just goes away.

 

[bmorgan]

Maybe my post was too long? '95 @ 173k. Steering very loose (loose feel and 4" of play). Need knew suspension also.

Can the loose steering be from the suspension or should I replace the PS pump and rebuild the PS gearbox? I have read so much, but I'm not clear if rebuilding the PS gearbox and replacing the PS pump will fix the loose steering. I don' think the gearbox is leaking fluid. Not positive about pump, but I don't think it's leaking either.

Thank you

 

[nukegoat]

When you wiggle the steering wheel you can have someone else feel what is loose. If nothing seems loose you could just benefit from another steering box. The screw on the top adjusts the gear backlash but not the ballscrew backlash.

Track bar bushings will also create felt slop.

 

[greentruck]

Before I rebuilt the steer box, I would try the adjusting screw. Follow the FSM, as you can easily crank in too much adjustment and be worse off, but it's low-hanging fruit if you're at the end of your rope in terms of figuring out the cause. It's there to take up slop from normal wear in the system. So if there's nothing else obvious, its also where you may find a solution.

 

[nukegoat]

Before I rebuilt the steer box, I would try the adjusting screw. Follow the FSM, as you can easily crank in too much adjustment and be worse off, but it's low-hanging fruit if you're at the end of your rope in terms of figuring out the cause. It's there to take up slop from normal wear in the system. So if there's nothing else obvious, its also where you may find a solution.

A rebuild will not remove slop in the ballscrew.

 

[bmorgan]

Ok, I'll try the adjustment first. But after that, I'm looking at track bar bushings? So you DON'T think the suspension can cause this feeling?

 

[greentruck]

A rebuild will not remove slop in the ballscrew.

You're way ahead of me on the analysis here. And you may very well be right.

I saw too many red herrings to conclude much. I'd agree that if there's 4" of slop it's unlikely to be taken care of by adjusting, but he might find half there -- and 2" of slop is better than 4". With so much worn, hard to say where to start other then going through it thoroughly, but sounds like the OP has the time, has at least some of the parts, and hopefully the budget and skills to carry through with a permanent fix than a "get it back on the road" sort.

Me? I'd send the box away for a rebuild by someone with the SSTs and familiarity with these from doing them, if I reached that point/conclusion, but YMMV. Tightening the screw I have familiarity with from working on my FJ55, so would be comfortable with that -- but first I'd go through double-checking what I already thought I knew about about the steering-suspension. Lots of times, folks think about this things piecemeal and nothing jumps out as obvious when taken together things may become more clear. Thus my suggestion to go through the FSM again.

 

[Box Rocket]

For the noise, I'd also check belts and the pulleys, particularly the idler pulley. When those bearings get bad they can make similar noise.

Sounds to me like you need to replace the distributor o-ring, PCV valve, maybe the valve cover gasket, and do a valve adjustment when you've got the cover off. Valves could be too loose giving you the "knock" or slap noise at start up.

as for the steering, I'd verify all the front end bushings/joints before digging into the steering box. Wheel bearings, trunions, TRE's, panhard bushings, radius arm bushings. After you know all that's good, then consider a new steering stabilizer but not before since a new one might just mask as issue that still remains. If you're still having problems, then take a look into the steering box.

 

[alia176]

Me? I'd send the box away for a rebuild by someone with the SSTs and familiarity with these from doing them, if I reached that point/conclusion, but YMMV. Tightening the screw I have familiarity with from working on my FJ55, so would be comfortable with that -- but first I'd go through double-checking what I already thought I knew about about the steering-suspension. Lots of times, folks think about this things piecemeal and nothing jumps out as obvious when taken together things may become more clear. Thus my suggestion to go through the FSM again.

Just for clarity, sending the PS box out for a "rebuild" is actually a "re-seal" if I'm not mistaken. Your PS box will not leak but the slop will still be there as none of those parts are replaced, not sure if they CAN be replaced. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[greentruck]

Just for clarity, sending the PS box out for a "rebuild" is actually a "re-seal" if I'm not mistaken. Your PS box will not leak but the slop will still be there as none of those parts are replaced, not sure if they CAN be replaced. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought there was a vendor in Texas that actually rebuilt them and everyone was raving about this a couple of years back. I'm (hopefully) a long way from needing this, so not exactly a fact I have on file. Anyone recall? If just a reseal, then maybe more at home-friendly than I recall from reading the FSM.

Or better get a new box. Is that still possible?

 

[greentruck]

Ok, I'll try the adjustment first. But after that, I'm looking at track bar bushings? So you DON'T think the suspension can cause this feeling?

Me? It could contribute. That was a background reason for suggesting you have nothing to lose and perhaps something to gain by trying the adjust. Old trucks that develop symptoms over a long period of use (vs something coming up suddenly) often have multiple issues due to wear and tear affecting everythihg to a certain degree. Sometimes, yeah, one thing is certainly the problem, fix it. When you get to steering and suspension, they're systems that are meant to interact by design. But with lots of miles, it can get complicated.

My idea was first, IIRC (and that varies from day to day, see previous comment here ) was that the FSM puts the Freeplay cCheck right up front, with its recommendation to adjust. Simple enough? Perhaps you missed the diagnosis priority table on the previous page, which lists the procedure to adjust it as step 5 AFTER checking everything else systematically. So it's a little tricky, but why I was nudging you that way -- recheck everything first, so you know the big picture, then try the nut adjust.

4" does sound like a lot. Doubt the adjust would get it all, but if you do gain, you can assume that part of the issue was there, but the rest is somewhere else.

That's when the connection to suspension, if any, will become more clear. of course, you may already see issues with the bushings that lead you to believe that you got a problem. Again, if the adjust helped, then you know you're maybe halfway there and go for the bushings as most likely other culprit, assuming you did your checklist of priorities.

If the adjust doesn't help at all, then you know it may not be the box at all or it's so badly failed nukegoat is spot on -- its the sole source of uncertainty.

 

[bmorgan]

To answer greentruck, I have the budget and stubbornness to NOT pay someone else. I've rebuilt engines and transmissions. I think I can do anything with enough reading. Maybe that's hubris speaking.

I'll see what the adjustment does and go from there. I'll post the effect.

Thanks for your help.

 

[bmorgan]

OH - and to answer your question - there is a place called West Texas that rebuilds PS gearboxes

 

[OVERRIT]

Howdy B:

You might find something informative in my experience with the 2.5" OME and handling issue:

Begging the Collective Mud Brain: after 1.5 years and 3 mechanics, post-lift handling still sucks!!!

If I had it to do over again I don't think I would have lifted.

 

[surfpig]

To answer greentruck, I have the budget and stubbornness to NOT pay someone else. I've rebuilt engines and transmissions. I think I can do anything with enough reading. Maybe that's hubris speaking.

I'll see what the adjustment does and go from there. I'll post the effect.

Thanks for your help.

Mine was pretty wandery from the get-go. I eliminated the 1" front spacer, tightened up the noisy loose panhards and adjusted the steering box slightly. This all took me a year or so to do. Now it's all messed up again.

 

[bmorgan]

Howdy B:

You might find something informative in my experience with the 2.5" OME and handling issue:

Begging the Collective Mud Brain: after 1.5 years and 3 mechanics, post-lift handling still sucks!!!

If I had it to do over again I don't think I would have lifted.

Hey... yeah - I've been reading a LOT about suspensions. I wish I understood why some swear by the 2.5 and then you've had such horrible experience. I've read the twitchiness due to a caster issue but you addressed that. I need to replace what I have with something. If you were to do it over again, what would you do instead? I have 33s and I think they look a little crammed in there. Plus I wouldn't mind a little height. We've had a little high water around here this year, as you might have heard. So I could do the stock replacement with spacers instead.

 

[bmorgan]

Mine was pretty wandery from the get-go. I eliminated the 1" front spacer, tightened up the noisy loose panhards and adjusted the steering box slightly. This all took me a year or so to do. Now it's all messed up again.

Hey Surfpig - so you are saying that making those changes helped, but then it went back to being loose? Is that right? If that's the case, sounds like you were in the right area at least.

 

[greentruck]

OH - and to answer your question - there is a place called West Texas that rebuilds PS gearboxes

That's the one I was trying to remember. Website says they rebuild it. Or is it just reseal (which can be tricky enough)?

 

[bmorgan]

That's the one I was trying to remember. Website says they rebuild it. Or is it just reseal (which can be tricky enough)?

Yeah - got me. But the PS gearbox really doesn't look that complicated to rebuild. I get that getting the ball bearings back in can be like herding cats, but that appears to be the toughest part (of course after you get the pitman off.) But from what I understand, the rebuild is mainly to fix leaks. I have not heard (read) anyone say (write) that rebuilding the gearbox fixed looseness in the steering. I'm willing rebuild everything if that's what it takes.

I'm getting a second set of hands to help this evening, so I plan on using that help to find out what exactly is loose.

 

[surfpig]

Hey Surfpig - so you are saying that making those changes helped, but then it went back to being loose? Is that right? If that's the case, sounds like you were in the right area at least.

I was a little rough on the old girl this summer...