Should I jump on this 62 or pass due to accident history?

[nye307]

Hi all. Relatively new to the Toyota world but I've quickly fallen in love with Gen1 4Runners and am looking to branch out into 60/62 LandCruisers. I'm experiencing a bit of a mid life career realignment and going from being a data scientist to restoring old vehicles (totally logical step, I know). I've always been an MB guy but I'll be damned if these trucks aren't cool as hell, a blast to drive and built to every bit the same quality as a 1980s Mercedes.

For my first LC acquisition I have a strong preference for the 62 due to the fuel injection (don't really mess with carburetors) and what seems like a higher floor on sale prices. I'm looking at a 1989 62 w/ 230k miles in blue over grey about an hour and a half from me that has rust in the typical places (though on D/S while P/S is cleaner) and likely needs a transmission rebuild but which the seller has been extremely gracious and accommodated a fair price bearing those things in mind. I like that the seller seems very knowledgable about these trucks (he restored a different 62 to immaculate condition and knows all the ins and outs of the process) and has seemed to be very open. Given the baked in discount for it, I actually view the trans needing a rebuild as a plus because recent big work like that seems to bolster sale prices in online auctions. And with the rust, all of the affected panels appear to be available aftermarket and fixing rust seems to just be part of the game.

At any rate, while I'm not really worried about the rust or transmission issues one thing I am concerned about is the accident history. And this is where I could use some input. While the truck has a clean title, when I ran a Carfax it came back with six accidents (five of those in the early 90s, one in 2013). None of the accidents are indicated as major but I don't think I've ever seen that many accidents on a Carfax before. On the flip side of the coin, this truck is getting a full respray and fresh sheet metal welded in so personally if I were doing the buying I wouldn't be that worried about what happened 20 years ago. That said, I'm not quite sure what buyers are going to think. It only takes one or two bidders being dissuaded due to the accident history to tank the sale price. I don't want to put a huge amount of work into this vehicle and get $17k when one with a clean history would have gotten $27k.

So bearing in mind that these 62s are on the rare-ish side (and doubly or quadruply so at this price), what do you guys think? Should I go for it or should I pass and maybe expand my search to trucks with the 2F? Would like to get back to the seller by tomorrow at the latest.

Note on pics: I mainly took pictures of the bad areas for reference so these images don't paint the truck in its best light.

 

[Old Nick]

Hi all. Relatively new to the Toyota world but I've quickly fallen in love with Gen1 4Runners and am looking to branch out into 60/62 LandCruisers. I'm experiencing a bit of a mid life career realignment and going from being a data scientist to restoring old vehicles (totally logical step, I know). I've always been an MB guy but I'll be damned if these trucks aren't cool as hell, a blast to drive and built to every bit the same quality as a 1980s Mercedes.

For my first LC acquisition I have a strong preference for the 62 due to the fuel injection (don't really mess with carburetors) and what seems like a higher floor on sale prices. I'm looking at a 1989 62 w/ 230k miles in blue over grey about an hour and a half from me that has rust in the typical places (though on D/S while P/S is cleaner) and likely needs a transmission rebuild but which the seller has been extremely gracious and accommodated a fair price bearing those things in mind. I like that the seller seems very knowledgable about these trucks (he restored a different 62 to immaculate condition and knows all the ins and outs of the process) and has seemed to be very open. Given the baked in discount for it, I actually view the trans needing a rebuild as a plus because recent big work like that seems to bolster sale prices in online auctions. And with the rust, all of the affected panels appear to be available aftermarket and fixing rust seems to just be part of the game.

At any rate, while I'm not really worried about the rust or transmission issues one thing I am concerned about is the accident history. And this is where I could use some input. While the truck has a clean title, when I ran a Carfax it came back with six accidents (five of those in the early 90s, one in 2013). None of the accidents are indicated as major but I don't think I've ever seen that many accidents on a Carfax before. On the flip side of the coin, this truck is getting a full respray and fresh sheet metal welded in so personally if I were doing the buying I wouldn't be that worried about what happened 20 years ago. That said, I'm not quite sure what buyers are going to think. It only takes one or two bidders being dissuaded due to the accident history to tank the sale price. I don't want to put a huge amount of work into this vehicle and get $17k when one with a clean history would have gotten $27k.

So bearing in mind that these 62s are on the rare-ish side (and doubly or quadruply so at this price), what do you guys think? Should I go for it or should I pass and maybe expand my search to trucks with the 2F? Would like to get back to the seller by tomorrow at the latest.

Note on pics: I mainly took pictures of the bad areas for reference so these images don't paint the truck in its best light.

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Rebuilding the A440F will cost a couple of grand if you have a shop do it. So will the new sheet metal (are you going to do the cutting, welding, etc. yourself?). Beyond those things, mechanically, is it sorted, or are you going to be throwing a ton of $$$$ at it to get it running properly.

Lastly, it sounds like you're planning to flip it. With all of the above, and especially with the number of accidents that rig has been involved in, I highly doubt that you'll get your money back out of it if you go the BAT route. Keep shopping and find an example for a good bit less money, and fewer accidents, if your plan is to restore and then sell.

 

[TreadingLight]

My two cents .... let this one go to someone who wants to fix it and drive it themselves.

 

[toy_tek]

Maybe a decent parts truck

 

[TreadingLight]

I've seen a lot of poorly done overpriced flips. This doesn't need to be another one.

 

[nye307]

Rebuilding the A440F will cost a couple of grand if you have a shop do it. So will the new sheet metal (are you going to do the cutting, welding, etc. yourself?). Beyond those things, mechanically, is it sorted, or are you going to be throwing a ton of $$$$ at it to get it running properly.

Lastly, it sounds like you're planning to flip it. With all of the above, and especially with the number of accidents that rig has been involved in, I highly doubt that you'll get your money back out of it if you go the BAT route. Keep shopping and find an example for a good bit less money, and fewer accidents, if your plan is to restore and then sell.

Well, the price is right on this one, but leaning towards passing.

The way I see it, if the accident history was not a problem I would have a solid 10k to work with in the restoration and still be able to do well on the truck. But if the accident history is a problem there's no way to tell how much of a problem it will be and that really screws with the whole formula. So far I've been coming up with what I think the minimum realistic sale price will be, figure out what the max I will spend on restoration will be and just look at the difference of expected sale price minus purchase + restoration costs. I'm trying to be extremely conservative with any projections.

The effect of mileage on FJ60/62s and what's driving hammer prices feels a little more random than with a lot of other vehicles but my best guess is that a quality "restoration light" (cure rust, fresh paint, new upholstery where necessary, full steam and extraction on the rest of the interior, clean up underbody, cure all mechanical issues, replace major wear items, etc) will put a 230k mile truck in the early to late 20s range without the albatross of an extensive accident history. If I don't know exactly how bidders are going to react to the accident history, that's screws everything up entirely.

At any rate, thanks so much for your take on this. It's really appreciated. If this one doesn't work out I'm looking forward to when I pull the trigger on my first 60/62 and get to join the forum in earnest!

 

[Old Nick]

Well, the price is right on this one, but leaning towards passing.

The way I see it, if the accident history was not a problem I would have a solid 10k to work with in the restoration and still be able to do well on the truck. But if the accident history is a problem there's no way to tell how much of a problem it will be and that really screws with the whole formula. So far I've been coming up with what I think the minimum realistic sale price will be, figure out what the max I will spend on restoration will be and just look at the difference of expected sale price minus purchase + restoration costs. I'm trying to be extremely conservative with any projections.

The effect of mileage on FJ60/62s and what's driving hammer prices feels a little more random than with a lot of other vehicles but my best guess is that a quality "restoration light" (cure rust, fresh paint, new upholstery where necessary, full steam and extraction on the rest of the interior, clean up underbody, cure all mechanical issues, replace major wear items, etc) will put a 230k mile truck in the early to late 20s range without the albatross of an extensive accident history. If I don't know exactly how bidders are going to react to the accident history, that's screws everything up entirely.

At any rate, thanks so much for your take on this. It's really appreciated. If this one doesn't work out I'm looking forward to when I pull the trigger on my first 60/62 and get to join the forum in earnest!

I haven't been on this forum for nearly as long as some of the old-timers, and I've only been an owner for a decade+, but I will say that you will likely catch some guff on here for flipping trucks. In large part because, flipping drove up the price of our rigs (not something that upsets me... lol). But, it made getting into a Cruiser much harder for many people. Please, don't misunderstand me, I am not against starting a business and making money (and I hope that you are successful in your new line of work), just giving you a heads-up.

 

[vipergrhd]

I say, RRRRRUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
I personally think you are in too deep for your first LC. Just wait.

 

[nye307]

Thanks Nick, appreciate the heads up. My situation is basically I'm a career professional of ten years who cannot find a job to save his life in the current economy, I've got a baby on the way and my wife's salary alone is not enough to get us by. Our nest egg is steadily being depleted and I have to find some way to bring in some more money. I've always been handy with cars and this will allow me to work out of my garage and spend more time with my daughter. A buddy of mine has been doing this pretty consistently and told me recently he could quit his day job if he wanted to. So I ran the numbers and it looks like he's right. If I can get to the point where I'm doing one a month we'd be in good shape financially.

They say there's no pride when it comes to putting food on the table. I feel like there's even less of giving a damn about what other people may think lol. Personally, I feel like taking old vehicles that are past their prime and bringing them back from the brink is a worthy contribution to society. If other people would rather see them remain rustbound and one foot in the grave, I suppose that's their prerogative.

@vipergrhd duly noted haha. I'm very much leaning in that direction.

 

[TreadingLight]

My problem with flippers is they don't add enough value to justify their price tags. And they often take shortcuts that reduce the desirability of the vehicle in question.

The good builds are done by reputable shops and passionate enthusiasts.

The rest is overpriced, damaged, abused.

So yeah, "I don't know much about land cruisers but I want your advice to flip one" is a post worthy of some significant guff.

 

[MWM1]

This was posted on FB earlier

 

[Michael Hanson]

Most flippers it’s a cover up.

 

[nye307]

@TreadingLight , most "flippers" give a car a decent detail claim they gave it an oil change and then attempt to juice an extra $2,000 out of it. That's not my game. I don't do anything halfway. I'm not interested in arguing about it but what I will say is that once I obtain the right truck (just told the seller in this situation I have to pass) I'll put a build thread on here. If my work is not up to your standards as its unfolding in front of you then say so at that point. And I would (genuinely) greatly appreciate it if you would provide input as to how you would do anything differently so that I can incorporate your advice.

As to where I'm at, the current 4Runner I'm working on has gotten only Genuine Toyota parts where possible and where not the best name brand available to me. I've estimated that with my current compressor/sander setup (HF POS, upgrading to a 60 gal DeWalt shortly) it takes about fifteen minutes to sand out a single rock chip. Will the small ones show up in pictures? Probably not. Is there a single rock chip left on that truck of any size? Hell no. Could we have just resprayed the clear? Yeah. Would that have been comprehensive? No. The entire interior is currently disassembled and strewn over my basement so I can individually steam clean everything and dye with SEM Color Coat to bring it back to what it looked like off the showroom floor. Was that necessary? No. Will it make it a nicer truck for the next owner? Absolutely.

I fully intend to provide the best vehicle possible to whoever buys something that came out of my garage. And if you don't want to believe that now, I encourage you to actually see it.

@MWM1 , yes that was me.

 

[TreadingLight]

I applaud your passion.

But most land cruiser owners, especially ones found on this forum, are going to care a lot more about the vehicles functional systems then the steam cleaned carpet.

Good luck with your first build. As you said, the proof will be in the results.

 

[nye307]

Thanks for your insight @TreadingLight. The average age of our fleet is probably about 30 years and on a handful of them I couldn't care less that there's a small exhaust leak or that the rear passenger window won't go down. So I appreciate the lifestyle you're talking about. But both our local consignment shop and BaT sale prices strongly indicate there's a market for 60/62s where everything works and the vehicle is in like new condition... I don't think you're the target audience here.

But again, when the rubber meets the road I would absolutely love to hear any constructive criticism you have. My first and foremost priority is to put out the best vehicle possible, and if that means reading your so eloquently veiled digs then so be it. Have a good one, friend.

 

[TreadingLight]

No one is saying people don't pay a premium for a nice interior.

But if that nice interior comes at the expense of not refreshing key functional vehicle systems, the flip is just a cover-up.

Are you going to rebuild those knuckles or just pressure wash 15 years of grease off them?

 

[DrRock]

As someone who has restored vintage Porsches and now my Land Cruiser, making descent money at this gig takes years of effort and time to establish a reputation worthy of profit making sales. I ended up focusing on a niche area (roll cages) as this allowed me to focus on one topic and set of tools which in turn built up my reputation. Taking on whole vehicle restorations requires a good eye, creativity and skills in bodywork, drivetrain expertise, electrical expertise, procurement etc. You have to be the top of your game in all of those departments on your own when you start or else you end up subbing that out which eats into your profit. Another big consideration on these trucks is the growing list of parts sourcing challenges as more items become NLA. Lastly, I would estimate around 10-20k in tools if you don’t have that already.

Bottom line, if I were in your shoes and needed to support my family, starting vehicle restorations as a profit center would be about the last field on my list.

What is your current career trajectory? If it were me, I’d look to see if I could pivot on that and see what comes up.

Best of luck, Hope this comes across as more realistic than pessimistic. I’d hate to see you get buried in more debt without a quick ROI.

 

[rick_d]

Anything with paint and body is outside your skill set and a body shop who will do rust repair will cost even more.

Carfax was useless pre 2000.

You do not yet have a concept of 1980’s fuel injection not desirability of a440 automatics.

I would stick to an easier series.

 

[WILLD420]

If you have job skills, you need to explore that rather than trying to flip landcruisers to support a family. The market has dropped a lot in recent times. Will it return? Fixing up 30 year old vehicles to make a quick flip sounds good, until you try to do it for a living with a rig that everyone thinks is worth twice what they are actually worth, unless you have disposable income and want to look cool. That is a very niche market that is about to hit a wall as the ever-dwindling supply of cool 90's 4x4's runs smack into the biggest demographic change in history where the boomers all retire, the gen-x'ers move into 70 hour work weeks because they are in leadership positions and the millenial / gen z'ers all realize a $450k 3 bedroom house costs more at 8% interest than they can afford.

If you are truly good at resto'ing interiors and fixing paint etcetera, then do that for people who are already in the business. There is plenty of work out there for shops or buddies that are already doing resto's. You let them take the chances, you charge for your labor and have little to no risk.

Your about to find out that having a kid and working a hobby-job are mutually exclusive in many ways. You may make it work, but your wife won't appreciate watching the kid at night while you are out in the garage trying to hammer out a bunch of detailed bodywork after sleepless nights with a kid and she has worked all day. Your "hobby-job" will drive a wedge between you that no amount of money or cool-factor can heal.

Do the math before you leap.

100 hours and you make $2000 profit?? Can you find a $20 an hour job that you can do from home and then do the side work that other shops aren't going to want to pay someone to do, or deal with the issues? Don't forget, paint and body work, fabric work, rust repair, all that stuff is weather dependent. Not bad when it's 60 degrees. Much harder at 0 degrees or 100 degrees.

 

[nye307]

Well, chalk this one up to a corner of the internet I won't be visiting again.

I have a friend who has been doing this consistently for the past two years. Recently he told me he could quit his day job if he wanted to. I've painted cars before and I've been wrenching since before I could drive. On top of that I have resources in a network of people who are willing to help or do work at reasonable rates. I do appreciate that this isn't guaranteed but I'm willing to roll the dice to the extent that it's a gamble. Thanks for the advice