New style rear control arms that will offer better and smoother articulation

[SmokingRocks]

Those look bad ass @jcardona1 but at those prices I could buy, install, wear out and rebuild a curie joint a couple times.

Also those are true heim which doesn't offer any kind of shock reduction. Perhaps I'm crazy but anytime I feel or hear something that doesn't sound normal I start contemplating what could be slowly breaking underneath me....

 

[jcardona1]

Gross

You think a traditional heim joint is still better than these with the bronze races?

 

[IronCladLou]

Fwiw the larger diameter makes a huge difference in strength vs wall thickness.

I'd bet that 2" .188 would be stronger than 1.75 .375. Certainly 2" .250 wall is. 1.75 is better than stock for sure though.

Diameter does make a difference, but in the case above the 1.75" x .375" wall is stronger than 2" x .188" wall (in bending). Only 6% stronger, but it is stronger. 3/8" wall is a lot of wall... And...2" x .25" wall is 14% stronger than the 1.75" x .375 wall, and it's .83 lbs/ft lighter.

 

[nukegoat]

You think a traditional heim joint is still better than these with the bronze races?

Yes

 

[-Spike-]

Diameter does make a difference, but in the case above the 1.75" x .375" wall is stronger than 2" x .188" wall (in bending). Only 6% stronger, but it is stronger. 3/8" wall is a lot of wall... And...2" x .25" wall is 14% stronger than the 1.75" x .375 wall, and it's .83 lbs/ft lighter.

Bending strength is not the issue generally for suspension arms. Deformation from impact and subsequent weakness is the issue. I don't have a dog in this fight, just pointing out that a material that resists denting is going to be superior than one that resists bending

 

[Box Rocket]

I've run arms with the Currie Johnny Joints. If you want to run arms with JJ's the ones from Jason at Trail Tailor are excellent. I had a set of his HD lowers as well as adjustable uppers. They have a JJ in one end and poly in the other. If the question of this thread is looking for arms that have the least resistance to flex, these are a nice solution. They are significantly stronger arms than stock.
IMG_2119 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

It's difficult to "feel" or measure the resistance an arm/joint will have to flex. The only real thing you can evaluate is the amount of flex or lack of, and how long the bushing or joint lasts as an indicator of resistance. From what I was able to evaluate the TT arms move pretty well.
IMG_7588 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

At the limit of flex there isn't actually that much deflection of the joint (assuming running stock-ish links) and there is way more movement available in the joint. But the JJ does handle all the twist and the poly bushing end is happy because it doesn't have to do any of the work.
IMG_7586 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_7585 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_7584 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_6181 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

With all that said, I'm currently running Blackhawk arms (upper and lower) that are part of the Slinky suspension. The Blackhawk arms are not adjustable lowers like the TT arms but they are the same HD construction and use OEM rubber bushings. The uppers are adjustable and also use rubber bushings.
IMG_2018 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_2118 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr



Having had arms with rubber bushings and with Johnny Joints there are a couple differences. The JJ's are definitely quieter than Heims but they transfer more vibrations than the rubber bushings which isolate those vibes better. So from my experience the rubber bushings feel smoother and it's noticeable in the ride.

As for flex, I am getting equal flex from the Blackhawk arms compared to the TT arms. Is there more resistance from the rubber bushings? Maybe but it's not noticeable. What is the lifespan comparison between the rubber and the JJ's? Not sure yet but I expect similar timeframe between replacing the rubber and needing to rebuild the JJ's. The Rubber OEM bushings definitely aren't hindering flex though.
IMG_0634 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I've run arms with the Currie Johnny Joints. If you want to run arms with JJ's the ones from Jason at Trail Tailor are excellent. I had a set of his HD lowers as well as adjustable uppers. They have a JJ in one end and poly in the other. If the question of this thread is looking for arms that have the least resistance to flex, these are a nice solution. They are significantly stronger arms than stock.
IMG_2119 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

It's difficult to "feel" or measure the resistance an arm/joint will have to flex. The only real thing you can evaluate is the amount of flex or lack of, and how long the bushing or joint lasts as an indicator of resistance. From what I was able to evaluate the TT arms move pretty well.
IMG_7588 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

At the limit of flex there isn't actually that much deflection of the joint (assuming running stock-ish links) and there is way more movement available in the joint. But the JJ does handle all the twist and the poly bushing end is happy because it doesn't have to do any of the work.
IMG_7586 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_7585 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_7584 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_6181 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

With all that said, I'm currently running Blackhawk arms (upper and lower) that are part of the Slinky suspension. The Blackhawk arms are not adjustable lowers like the TT arms but they are the same HD construction and use OEM rubber bushings. The uppers are adjustable and also use rubber bushings.
IMG_2018 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

IMG_2118 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr



Having had arms with rubber bushings and with Johnny Joints there are a couple differences. The JJ's are definitely quieter than Heims but they transfer more vibrations than the rubber bushings which isolate those vibes better. So from my experience the rubber bushings feel smoother and it's noticeable in the ride.

As for flex, I am getting equal flex from the Blackhawk arms compared to the TT arms. Is there more resistance from the rubber bushings? Maybe but it's not noticeable. What is the lifespan comparison between the rubber and the JJ's? Not sure yet but I expect similar timeframe between replacing the rubber and needing to rebuild the JJ's. The Rubber OEM bushings definitely aren't hindering flex though.
IMG_0634 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

What is the opposing end construction? For me it about longevity I can get 100% articulation with my current shocks and OEM bushing and rear swaybar. Looking for a set up that is not so hard on the bushing ends. Moving more freely would be a bonus.

 

[SmokingRocks]

If you want to run arms with JJ's the ones from Jason at Trail Tailor are excellent. I had a set of his HD lowers as well as adjustable uppers. They have a JJ in one end and poly in the other.
IMG_2119 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

I hate sleeved poly bushings... Currently I cannot remove the bolt on my man-a-fre UCA as it has somehow seized to the collar. Wailing on it with a single jack and blasting it with a snap on air hammer did nothing. The bolt rotates freely so I know it has something to do with the sleeve... Breaking out the sawzall next...

 

[Sc0-]

Would be better off building sleeved links that allow rotation but use OEM bushings?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I hate sleeved poly bushings... Currently I cannot remove the bolt on my man-a-fre UCA as it has somehow seized to the collar. Wailing on it with a single jack and blasting it with a snap on air hammer did nothing. The bolt rotates freely so I know it has something to do with the sleeve... Breaking out the sawzall next...

To add ever broken control arm i have seen ran poly

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Would be better off building sleeved links that allow rotation but use OEM bushings?

OEM are bonded sleeve

 

[Box Rocket]

What is the opposing end construction? For me it about longevity I can get 100% articulation with my current shocks and OEM bushing and rear swaybar. Looking for a set up that is not so hard on the bushing ends. Moving more freely would be a bonus.


View attachment 1741382

So what are you gaining by "moving more freely"? Just the life of the ends? or quicker response on the trail?

I don't have any hard data to support longevity of the Johnny Joints or the Rubber bushings, yet. Much of that longevity will differ from one vehicle to the next and how it is used. The only way to know for sure which is superior in terms of longevity is to have each set on the same truck for a time until they need to be replaced and have them experience the same type of use over that time.

From the information that I've been able to gather, I don't see a clear winner in this area between the two. Eventually a rubber bushing will break down (OEM has proven to last longer than aftermarket), and eventually the Johnny Joint will need to be replaced and I believe that timeframe is just about the same. At that point it comes down to cost of replacing the joint vs cost of a rubber bushing. The bushing wins at that point.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Would be better off building sleeved links that allow rotation but use OEM bushings?

I think you are asking if we can build a link that deals with the rotational force within the tube of the link (between the bushings). While possible it is very complex, vulnerable to wear and have a plethora of its own drawbacks.

Best bang for buck would be to do a flexy joint like the SPC or Jonny Joint on one end and an OEM bushing on the other.

 

[SmokingRocks]

At that point it comes down to cost of replacing the joint vs cost of a rubber bushing. The bushing wins at that point.

Johnny Joints can be rebuilt time and time again. Pretty quick and easy too.

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

Johnny Joints can be rebuilt time and time again. Pretty quick and easy too.

I've made several custom arms with a JJ on one end and a OEM Toyota eye with a bonded sleeved bushing on the other. These are by custom order only and lead time is about 3 weeks bare metal/ 4 weeks powdered.

I stock the Currie JJ rebuild parts, but most of the time for the cost, shipping and rebuild time... it's just easier and faster to order a new joint. In 3 years I've never had a JJ go bad.

Also my new machined poly sleeves are 4 way bored. So, when you grease the bushings... the bolt gets some love too. Keeps the road salts, mud, grime from building up in between the bolt and sleeve.

Jason

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Johnny Joints can be rebuilt time and time again. Pretty quick and easy too.

So far all the joints I have looked at are "rebuildable". SPC grabbed my attention because I liked the way they seal as not others addressed it.

 

[maxamillion2345]

Heims get squeaky and clunky quickly when exposed to the mud/dirt/sand often found on our favorite trails. They need constant attention to remain quite and clean. They also wear out and develop play much faster than any other joint I've used.

I'm seriously looking into replacing my heims with Curie Johnny Joints (linked).

Best of both worlds. Its got the flex of heims, with a polyurethane bushing holding the ball which vastly reduces squeaking, clunking and damage due to sand/dirt/mud. Additionally they can be rebuilt.
View attachment 1741300 View attachment 1741301

Well... I'd say my experience and everyone I wheel with says the opposite.

They blow out fast...
FK heims and don't look back. Seem to hold up pretty well on Tom Wayes buggy

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

So what are you gaining by "moving more freely"? Just the life of the ends? or quicker response on the trail?

I don't have any hard data to support longevity of the Johnny Joints or the Rubber bushings, yet. Much of that longevity will differ from one vehicle to the next and how it is used. The only way to know for sure which is superior in terms of longevity is to have each set on the same truck for a time until they need to be replaced and have them experience the same type of use over that time.

From the information that I've been able to gather, I don't see a clear winner in this area between the two. Eventually a rubber bushing will break down (OEM has proven to last longer than aftermarket), and eventually the Johnny Joint will need to be replaced and I believe that timeframe is just about the same. At that point it comes down to cost of replacing the joint vs cost of a rubber bushing. The bushing wins at that point.

Never thought about response but thinking about running mogel fields at a normal speed I dont get much side to side and stay pretty flat so it would/will be interesting on the difference if any with less resitance.

Currently my OEM are lasting less than 30K so while I need to replace the OEM I wanted to look further and see if the could be extended. What kind of life would you give joints?

 

[SmokingRocks]

SPC grabbed my attention because I liked the way they seal as not others addressed it.

I meant to make a note about that, I too really appreciate the seal on the SPC joint. The more you keep out the grit and elements the longer they typically last.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Well... I'd say my experience and everyone I wheel with says the opposite.

They blow out fast...
FK heims and don't look back. Seem to hold up pretty well on Tom Wayes buggy

Does Tom Wayes buggy get 20,000 miles on it each year? Can you elaborate on your experience with curie joints blowing out fast?

I've never found a heim regardless if its a FK, rough stuff or budget basement brand that doesn't eventually get some level of play in it. Shock load plus environmental factors such as abrasive grit, moisture take their toll, nothing is immune to the forces of nature. Yes some are much better than others, but you pay dearly for that.

And i currently run FK's on my 3 link, one of which has noticeable play after two years in service.