Builds My first '40 and the venture (23 Viewers)

[sogncab]

I'd offer you moral support to help you over it, but.... I have questionable morals.

Hookers and blow mend all wounds.

(So I'm told....)

 

[OlYellr]

Went back to KC yesterday to finish pulling motor apart to get to machine shop today (Friend where rig is at is going Black Hills Classic Cruisers after he drops the motor off
2023 Black Hills Classic Cruisers


Anyway - first picture - zoomed in - I circled where the scratch goes through the ring line. Only thing we can think of is the piston goes that far, not the rings. The thought is (before the machine shop sees it), is maybe a measuring device was not right and the clearance between the piston and cylinder wall was off and it was not bored correctly - so when it heated up, the piston expanded, as all metal does, and the tolerance/clearance insufficient. Every cylinder has these scratches you can feel.

Mark got it dropped off this am. The machine shop was agreeable and did say those scratches should not be there and don't know why their in the first place. The pistons were left in so they can figure it out why and remove it themselves.

Also, they are going to plug the holes in the exhaust manifold after grinding a part I can remember (part of the heat riser stuff where the smoke was coming out above video) - Having the intake and exhaust cerekoted reveled two areas of leaks. Found a leak with the adaptor that goes between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust pipe. - so I got that going for me.

I hustled back late last night - and dropped of a SUV load of stuff to powder this am while the shop does it stuff.

Need to shop for a few parts for assembly - hardest one will be the crank nut - some stripped threads - now for the parts chase.

 

[65swb45]

Quick update before I hit the road later this am....

Got OL YELLR loaded up last night and celebrated with pizza and some Yuppie Brew. Two days ago, I notice some spots under it, yesterday a third and bigger spot under it - (been sitting still for weeks - such a good boy, stay). (One pic from Thursday, one Friday)

Thursday (two spots a) front diff, b) the back one I see is at the flywheel/bell housing).

View attachment 3351127
Friday - WTF
View attachment 3351129

Going to do one more thing in KC, which basically take a carb we know is good (working on friend's 40) and put it on and see. All it will do IMO is verify the engine rebuild was/is not right for reasons not understood yet. (was/is a great learning lesson - know way more about engines and carb vs getting a rig that just worked).

A couple weeks ago, I took to shop for some engine tests... they did compression and leak-down. Compression was not wet tested - engine was warm. Three cylinders were at 100, three at 115 (tested 3x and did average per cylinder).

Leak-down... (quoting notes from shop) "Removed valve cover and loosened all rockers to ensure all valves were seated, rechecked cylinder leakage on Cyl 1 and Cyl 6 at TDC and found Cyl 1 had 39% leakage and Cyl 6 had 29%. Stoped test. Installed smoke machine to Cyl 1 through leakage test hose and found smoke coming from crankcase. Leakage is past piston rings. Engine will need to be torn down for further diagnosis."

I did a wet test after since they didn't - helped anywhere from 0 to 10 psi over the cylinders. I kept it relative to my tester - tested dry, then wet etc.

Anymore of that Yuppie Brew?

Being a noob, part of me had been thinking well maybe the rings haven't set yet from the rebuild and why the big leakage - and having a carb without the secondary is not helping the engine break in - why I've been hell bent on the two carbs I have. And maybe the camshaft is off by a tooth. Hard to explain the low compression right now. Been in contact with the machine shop too, just in case.

So - given one leak is from the front pumpkin, I'm going to entertain the idea off pulling several more parts off and go over them so I know the condition of them vs guess what how the PO's drove while the engine is getting more TLC. Decided to pull out my favorite Ron Swanson Quote... "Don't half-ass it, whole-ass it."

Silver lining is I will get to spend more time in the hot tub with Yuppie Brew. For those not from the rural parts of prairie, that is a stock tank next to a camp fire.

Cheers..

Just reading this and realizing there’s a non-sequiter in your logic Brian. The secondary doesn’t matter on breakin. You want to get the engine good and hot for the rings to seat. Dumping a secondary load of fuel isn’t part of that equation. You can and will get all the fuel you want/need from the carb for breakin without a working secondary.

The only caveat is that if the vacuum isn’t sufficient to draw solely from the idle circuit, you will have to keep the rpm up to the point that the engine can use all the fuel coming out of the primary, because it is possible to wash the rings out on the primary alone.

It’s been a LONG time, probably more than 15 years, since I helped @Spike Strip break in his rebuilt engine. I wonder if he still remembers how I kept revving the engine and backing off, checking vacuum, and waiting to see a reading consistent with the rings seating.

 

[OlYellr]

Just reading this and realizing there’s a non-sequiter in your logic Brian. The secondary doesn’t matter on breakin. You want to get the engine good and hot for the rings to seat. Dumping a secondary load of fuel isn’t part of that equation. You can and will get all the fuel you want/need from the carb for breakin without a working secondary.

The only caveat is that if the vacuum isn’t sufficient to draw solely from the idle circuit, you will have to keep the rpm up to the point that the engine can use all the fuel coming out of the primary, because it is possible to wash the rings out on the primary alone.

It’s been a LONG time, probably more than 15 years, since I helped @Spike Strip break in his rebuilt engine. I wonder if he still remembers how I kept revving the engine and backing off, checking vacuum, and waiting to see a reading consistent with the rings seating.

Thanks Mark! Any advice how to do it differently is greatly appreciated. I remember talking to you when I got the seat from you & you mentioned how one cruiser took almost 700 miles before breakin (or something like that) and felt like being rear ended slightly when the rings did set.

I was paranoid about cylinder wash too from another post of yours and that is what got me to do the black stone oil test (I could smell gas when I removed the dipstick) and got me to question the carburetor and it's function - and as you pointed out, made me blind with certainty about the secondary totally ignoring everything else (IE sequence). A few attempts at the carb here in the Prairie got an ultimate trip to you - so I feel great it is now correct from your experienced hands.

I want to be more deliberate with it. Some say drive nice for a while then act like you stole it. My dad who has experience with breaking in Ford and airplane engines, is more with what you are saying - bring it up, back off, rinse and repeat.

Cheers!

 

[OlYellr]

Heard back from the machine shop. They tore into it yesterday afternoon. Long story short, metal shavings chewed the cylinders.

How they got there in the first place is the debate. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a middle-aged divorce woman or other wild creature sneaking in and sprinkling shavings in the engine. And it isn't like a bolt or washer was dropped in by accident. It is a reputable machine shop and sometimes things happen. Getting mad isn't going to change things or whatever. Least that is the engineer in me, solve the next problem then go to next.

They said all rod and main bearing look perfect, cam bearings are rough from disassembly. Next is to use .040 over pistons and rings, and they will redo everything once they get the pistons. The galley plug is going to be addressed too. I'm thinking of going there next week and watch and learn before I head to CA for work.

That is the part that really gets me. Domed pistons are so hard to source. Sucks with such a limited supply, the attempt here smoked pistons with less than 250 total miles on them.

I did manage to find some today (do some leg work for the shop) - it took a long time - only 2 places had any. One set were the performance pistons that are about $1400 and require premium gas - and not in stock. Not interested in that for a tractor. The other was next to Big Betty's Kick-boxing Academy.

Anyway - machine shop is holding up their end. Best I could hope for. Glad not in a blame game stalemate.

Goal is to head to KC after my work trip, and put the engine back together and stab it back in. @Flatlanderfj40 it might be when you all are heading out to SAS. If it doesn't overlap, I will let you know (could use help with stabbing - I can pay with lame jokes, food, and beer).

Thanks for reading.

 

[OlYellr]

Been a while. A few updates coming soon, first one is made a drop to powder two weeks ago. Hope it will be done when I get back from CA next week -

 

[OlYellr]

Piston update....

I mentioned I found two places that said they have domed pistons - One was the performance domed via Man-a-fre requiring premium gas (I live in corn country - easier to find a blue-eyed unicorn than non-corn gas) and the aftermarket ITM which maybe would arrive in a month (= the computer says there is one left on the planet), who knows.

So after a few exchanged with Jim Chenoweth (@FJ40Jim) - I asked him about the pistons he has/sells with respect to corn gas and he said....

"The pistons have same dome volume as stock. They are 1.5mm over bore, which increase displacement from 4.2L to 4.4L. The increase in swept volume increases compression by the same percentage, from 7.8 to 8.2:1. The head will also get milled .010", which will bump CR to 8.3. Still low enough to run on junk gas, but the increased displacement gives increased torque at any RPM, as does the slightly increased CR."

Sold! (and less expensive than those Man-a-fre) The pistons arrived and now at machine shop as of Thursday - This coming week the machine shop will get to it (cam bearings, replacing almost all the studs in the manifold/adaptors etc.) and around Aug 8th or so getting things ready to stab the engine back in.

Along with that, I was thinking of a cam grind. Delta Cam seems to be the go-to here on the forum. But after digging/asking around, etc. and talking to Delta, decided to keep it stock for my uses. I am not a serious rock climber and need a torquer - it would be a light grid for better RPM at highway speed... but for me, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

I am keeping the order open at the other place if they do produce a set of domed pistons. Someone on the forum would benefit and not have to wait as long.

Lastly, I did find an 1984 2f that recently came out of a 60 series that is a good rebuild candidate in Iowa. It is a reasonable price, even if only for a core. So I am thinking about heading to Iowa to get that off their hands and store it if I need it in the future or someone else. I like it since it is flat pistons and they are still available OEM vs all the hassle I, and others, have sourcing pistons for the older 2f block.

 

[OlYellr]

Been awhile -

Machine shop is done - will retrieve it Tuesday - had the galley plug tap&plugged - along with the manifold - Also had them replace the exhaust flange studs.

Got first batch of powder coating back - I made a mistake with the motor mounts and for some reason didn't put them all in the same box - so multi-colored mounts!! Maybe the rest today - and will see about hauling it down to KC tomorrow.

Reading @dmaddox thread can leave on feeling... how shall I say.. inadequate. He posted cleaning up the heater lines. And since no radiator etc, going to follow that lead and yank, clean, and apply new foam. Last night ordered the ones @pb4ugo suggested on that thread (McMaster part number 4339T8).

First batch of Powder Porn below.

 

[OlYellr]

Here is a before and after...

 

[dmaddox]

Awesome!! The black parts look particularly great. Looking forward to seeing this come together!! I wouldn't stress the motor mounts, they're down low and buried in stuff; important thing is they are coated!

 

[OlYellr]

Made a run to KC to see Yellr at the vet last night - worked on removing some of the water pipes and see how cleaning/relining foam goes. The clamps were a SOB - ordering new ones - pretty sure some not salvageable.

Plan is head down Monday and start assembly that evening and hopefully by Tuesday stab the engine. Hey @Flatlanderfj40, you still interested in coming over (really - helping out to stab it - or just stare and BS, swill beer?) maybe @Polecat? The date/time is tentative - but think should be all ready on Tuesday afternoon. Put on the Carb @65swb45 went over (thank you Mark!) and get it to start.

Pictures of the success last night. Need to put the miles on today after that.

 

[Green Bean]

This site is really no fair. First, there are all the photos posted by @dmaddox of his immaculate restoration work. Then, over here, we get fresh powder coating and BBQ, complete with gnawed off bones. Geez.

 

[dmaddox]

Hah! I'll take a plate of the BBQ!!! Looks amazing, YUM!!!

 

[65swb45]

Hah! I'll take a plate of the BBQ!!! Looks amazing, YUM!!!

Almost worth the drive.

 

[OlYellr]

It's worth the drive - Pizza, beers or whatever, stories, laughing etc for those want to stop by.

I did look at the forecast and it will be hot - looks like the sun will be 50 feet away about the time we might put the engine in - yes it will be inside a garage with AC (and a fridge) all the while supervised by life-sized Jerry Garcia wall art.

 

[OlYellr]

Then, over here, we get fresh powder coating and BBQ, complete with gnawed off bones. Geez.

I was trying to be less gruesome - I didn't what to show the picts where we were sucking the marrow out of the bones. Those were fantastic. I would have been fine only eating those.

I will resume pictures based in reality - here is brown fluid running out when I was flushing one of the pipes a few minutes ago...

 

[OlYellr]

More cleaning - tried a few ways - a) Brasso b) soak with warm water with white vinegar and c) finally baking soda, salt, and vinegar paste.

Found the soak does well (10 minutes then started to scour the pipe) with a light brush taking the top tarnish layer off making it easier for the brasso to take over - didn't see any advantage with the paste other than fun to see how much it would "erupt" when adding the baking soda to the vinegar.

All I am going for is remove enough tarnish to make it smooth so the new foam has the best chance to go on.

I also sloshed the mixture in the tube and would dump - picture doesn't show how brown it really is. Can see where I haven't touched it yet.

 

[OlYellr]

Got the foam on one of the long tubes to the rear heater. I used baby powder that @pb4ugo mentioned on @dmaddox thread - I thought I'd try and put thermodynamics to use. I put the tube in the chest freezer (brass/copper shrinks up to 5% when really cold so would settle for 1%). Put the foam in the sun to get hot and expand. Dumped baby powder in the foam - Chilled for maybe 15 minutes or so then started to thread.

got 30% done in maybe 3-5 minutes - took 20 minutes total to finish - Need to flush out the tube - don't want the baby powder to gunk up the heater core when fluid is running through it all.

Be careful - it was too easy at first - and then I tried to do longer stretches being easy and started to tweak the tube at one of the bends - was able to recover - and then inch-worm it with a twist between the bends the last 15 minutes. Way easier than I thought it would be.

Last pic is old foam and new.

 

[dmaddox]

Whoa - NICE job man, turned out beautifully!!

 

[greenEFSI]

Just went through this whole thread. What a rollercoaster of emotions lol! Glad to see the motor is almost ready to go back in. I'll be tuned in for future posts for sure.