Looking for assistance with Colorado emissions (1HD-FT) (2 Viewers)

[urhc2]

Good morning all,

I am hoping to track down someone with a 1HD-FT powered HDJ81 in an emissions compliance area of Colorado (front range). I went for inspection at the emissions technical center in Denver this morning and was told that beginning in 1997, the HDJ81 had catalytic converters. Since my truck does not have cats, it did not pass inspection. I am under the impression that these motors did not come with cats at all.

I am looking for someone who has navigated this process before in as similar a truck to mine as possible.

I know some local folks who passed inspection and emissions with the 1HD-T, but for some reason, the inspection folks are claiming that something changed in 1997-1998 with the emissions systems on these trucks and they did come with cats.

Alternatively, any other support, resources, or guidance are welcome. I expect I'll have to put together some resources to prove this truck did not come with cats, if that is indeed the case.

Thanks!

 

[urhc2]

I should add that the emissions technical center folks are adamant that if I were to put cats on the truck, they would either have to be genuine Toyota, or aftermarket explicitly stating they're intended for this motor. Throwing a universal cat on this truck will not suffice.

 

[SNLC]

No it never had cats.

Try a different DMV office.

Cheers

 

[urhc2]

No it never had cats.

Try a different DMV office.

Cheers

Unfortunately this is the only inspection office that does diesel trucks in all of the eastern CO region where emissions testing is required, they're separate from the DMV and sit between me and getting an emissions test. Annoying to say the least.

 

[gilmorneau]

Try a different DMV office.

Sadly the Colorado Front Range is not Idaho--it's getting more and more like California here. To get a foreign-market car to be emission compliant here is a two step process: First, have the vehicle inspected at the Emissions Technical Center on 2nd Ave in Denver; and second, get a tailpipe emissions test at any licensed diesel emissions station. There is only one Emissions Technical Center, which is the only place that does the inspection. They're supposed to confirm that the vehicle has its original motor with all original emissions equipment in place (and is thus eligible for the EPA 21 year exemption). Unfortunately, they don't really have the bandwidth to know every detail about every foreign-market car and I know of cases where they've got it wrong. There's no appeal process AFAIK. They are kings. Their word is law. Every car I've imported and registered has made it through the process, but it's a bit of a headache.

When I took my HDJ80 (1997, with 1HD-FT) to have it inspected, they identified this component of my exhaust as the catalytic converter:

I mentioned that I wasn't sure that's what it was, but the inspector was not to be dissuaded--that's the catalytic converter!. So I let him call it a catalytic converter and I went about my business. Maybe it is. What do I know? My inspection report says I have a catalytic converter. Toyota sell the entire front section of the exhaust as part number 17401-17051 if you need to get one.

The first reference I could find to an actual catalytic converter on similar diesel Landcruisers was for a 1998+ HDJ100 (with the 1HD-FTE) which kind of makes sense, since that's another move away from mechanical diesels and towards emissions-controlled motors. Again, Toyota sells the entire front section of the exhaust for the HDJ100. It's part number 17401-17150 (I think) and it's about $500 more than the equivalent pipe for the HDJ80. I'd suspect the cost difference is in the catalytic converter. It's pictured here, and it sure looks more like a catalytic converter to me:

As I see it, you have some options:

Put together a presentation with the above information (except my name, of course) and try to convince them you don't need a catalytic converter. Take donuts or breakfast burritos with you or something. If your wife is one who can turn on the charm, take her, too. Be nice. Obsequious, even.

Buy the OEM Toyota part and install it if that would make them happy. If a few hundred dollars will get you down the road, so be it.

Register the car outside of the emissions compliance area.

Feel free to PM me with questions. I've been through it.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Don't the 25 year old import rules exempt you from emissions requirements?
EPA import rules exempts you from emissions requirements on imports 15 years old from memory. 25 year rule applies to safety standards

I think the presentation of parts info might be helpful, but having partsouq watermark on diagrams probably doesn't help.

@OGBeno might be able to help with Toyota EPC information showing no cats?

 

[gilmorneau]

Don't the 25 year old import rules exempt you from emissions requirements?
EPA import rules exempts you from emissions requirements on imports 15 years old from memory. 25 year rule applies to safety standards

Yes and no. It's correct that the Federal 25 year rule is for safety standards (NHTSA/DOT), and that the EPA exemption is less (21 years), but the EPA exemption only applies if the car's motor and emissions equipment are in "original unmodified condition". In other words, if your car's emissions equipment has been tampered with, you don't get the Federal exemption from emissions regulations.

The rule is from the US Federal Government, but somebody at the State of Colorado decided that if we're going to have foreign-market cars driving around here, they need to conform to the Federal standard (i.e. "original unmodified condition"). That is what the Emissions Technical Center is supposed to confirm. It's only a Colorado thing, and only a small portion of Colorado at that. Basically, the State of Colorado has taken it upon itself to actively enforce United States Federal regulations. Then, after ensuring that Federal regulations have been satisfied, the State of Colorado has its own emissions requirements (for actual tailpipe emissions).

(BTW, that last bit would be the same for any local jurisdiction in the US--if there are emissions testing requirements (which vary wildly by area), a foreign-market import would need to meet the requirements of the local agency even if the vehicle has an exemption from Federal emissions requirements.)

@OGBeno might be able to help with Toyota EPC information showing no cats?

Agreed.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Yes and no. It's correct that the Federal 25 year rule is for safety standards (NHTSA/DOT), and that the EPA exemption is less (21 years), but the EPA exemption only applies if the car's motor and emissions equipment are in "original unmodified condition". In other words, if your car's emissions equipment has been tampered with, you don't get the Federal exemption from emissions regulations.

The rule is from the US Federal Government, but somebody at the State of Colorado decided that if we're going to have foreign-market cars driving around here, they need to conform to the Federal standard (i.e. "original unmodified condition"). That is what the Emissions Technical Center is supposed to confirm. It's only a Colorado thing, and only a small portion of Colorado at that. Basically, the State of Colorado has taken it upon itself to actively enforce United States Federal regulations. Then, after ensuring that Federal regulations have been satisfied, the State of Colorado has its own emissions requirements (for actual tailpipe emissions).

(BTW, that last bit would be the same for any local jurisdiction in the US--if there are emissions testing requirements (which vary wildly by area), a foreign-market import would need to meet the requirements of the local agency even if the vehicle has an exemption from Federal emissions requirements.)

Agreed.

I see. So if no cats, a modified exhaust doesn't matter because there's emissions gear on it?

 

[Squash]

Looks like Regular exhaust.
Pretty certain a diesel would use something other than a cat. Cats are a gasser's realm.
Note: Same part fits the 1990 and runs on into 1997 for Euro versions and 2006 for the General market.
I've run 2 hdj81's and also have a 1995 hdj80. Never seen a cat on either.

 

[gilmorneau]

So if no cats, a modified exhaust doesn't matter because there's emissions gear on it?

I don't speak for the State of Colorado, but that's what I'd think, too. Makes sense.

Pretty certain a diesel would use something other than a cat. Cats are a gasser's realm.

Toyota diesels started using cats in some markets in 1998. A cat for diesel has different construction than one for petrol, but serves the same function. Modern diesels all have them AFAIK.

 

[cruiserdan]

I went for inspection at the emissions technical center in Denver this morning and was told that beginning in 1997, the HDJ81 had catalytic converters.

Incorrect. No cats on any diesel 80 Series. Cats first used on 1998 HDJ101.

 

[gilmorneau]

Incorrect. No cats on any diesel 80 Series. Cats first used on 1998 HDJ101.

Thought so. Do you have any Toyota documentation that would verify that info for @urhc2 to use when he returns to the technical center? I’ve dealt with those guys several times. I think if they saw it in Mr. T’s own hand, they’d believe it.

 

[cruiserdan]

Thought so. Do you have any Toyota documentation that would verify that info for @urhc2 to use when he returns to the technical center? I’ve dealt with those guys several times. I think if they saw it in Mr. T’s own hand, they’d believe it.

Toyota won't directly supply anything of that nature. One would have to find a repair manual or parts catalog to try to support the claim. Convincing an ignorant government employee that doesn't know the difference between a cat and a resonator can be a challenge.

 

[urhc2]

Thank you all for the guidance and resources, I am going to attempt to prepare a packet to bring with me over to the emissions technical center and see about getting this corrected. I am very confident in all this information, but the problem I face is the uphill battle of attempting to prove that someone who is supposed to be an expert made a mistake. As this is the only emissions inspection center that can accommodate diesels, I have to tread lightly.

 

[bugsnbikes]

Isnt Montana near the front range? Waaaaay less problems with emissions. And Montana offers permanent plates- so no annual reg. costs.

 

[urhc2]

Isnt Montana near the front range? Waaaaay less problems with emissions. And Montana offers permanent plates- so no annual reg. costs.

This is an option of last resort for me as it lies in a gray area of the law that I would rather not have catch up with me at some point in the future.

My current plan is:
1. On Monday, call the local diesel emissions shop that I get my other diesel car emissions tested at and see what their recommendations are.
2. Prepare documentation to present the inspectors showing that diesel 80 series LC's were not equipped with cats. This includes diagrams of the exhaust and EGR systems, highlighting the lack of a cat. One of the points the inspector made to me was that because the vehicle has EGR, it must've also had cats. I think this represents a pretty significant flaw in emissions systems from this time period. I also plan to include a diagram of the 100 series FTE exhaust showing a cat, and indicating this does not apply to my vehicle, and copies of written correspondence from Cruiser Outfitters documenting that they reviewed my chassis # and it was not built with cats.
3. If this does not work, I will ask for a copy of their documentation which is showing that a cat is required (I expect this to either be for a 1HD-FTE, or a 1FZ) and then will attempt to explain why their documentation does not apply to my vehicle.
4. If all of the above does not work, this means that I have exhausted my options to legally register my Land Cruiser in an emissions region of Colorado. My follow on options include retaining a lawyer, complaining to the city, and/or complaining to my reps.
5. If I get to option 4, my chances of legally registering the vehicle are next to zero as is. When option 4 goes nowhere, I would either consider moving to a part of Colorado that doesn't require inspection/emissions, or I would be forced to either register the LC out of state, or sell it.

I remain cautiously hopeful that step 1-3 will be successful, the folks at the emissions technical center were friendly and nobody can expect them to be experts on every vehicle that rolls into their shop. I can only hope that remaining friendly and presenting this information in a constructive way will get the result I am after.

I have already started drafting a letter to my state representative as in conversing with some other car enthusiast friends, we all share the feeling that a single emissions center for every applicable diesel vehicle in the entire Colorado Front Range definitely seems like an opportunity for bribery. Whether or not there is anything nefarious going on, a reasonable person can conclude that a single point of failure like this creates that environment. I would really like to see a more transparent process with formal appeals, and ideally, alternative locations being empowered to inspect diesel vehicles. As it stands right now, there is no way to even communicate with the emissions technical centers in writing. Everything is done over the phone or in person verbally.

 

[gilmorneau]

I remain cautiously hopeful that step 1-3 will be successful, the folks at the emissions technical center were friendly and nobody can expect them to be experts on every vehicle that rolls into their shop. I can only hope that remaining friendly and presenting this information in a constructive way will get the result I am after.

I think you're on the right track. Those guys always seemed nice enough when I've dealt with them, and they don't seem unreasonable. If you can bring the receipts, so to speak, they should see the light. You may need to give them a delicate lesson in the differences between a resonator and a catalytic converter, though. I kind of wish now that I had argued that point somewhat more forcibly when I was there.

 

[urhc2]

I think you're on the right track. Those guys always seemed nice enough when I've dealt with them, and they don't seem unreasonable. If you can bring the receipts, so to speak, they should see the light. You may need to give them a delicate lesson in the differences between a resonator and a catalytic converter, though. I kind of wish now that I had argued that point somewhat more forcibly when I was there.

I do have the unfortunate additional hurdle of an aftermarket exhaust. I broke my stock exhaust off roading in multiple places two weeks ago. While in theory this should not impact anything, it does add another layer of complexity.

 

[urhc2]

If anybody cares to proof read, this is my current draft of what I plan to print out and bring with me. Would love any feedback, corrections to anything incorrect, or other suggestions. Emissions - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VYHTBOOeqpcYC--OG7Sw1IRhyGKHo-11QIixSMLOUU4/edit?usp=sharing

 

[mudgudgeon]

the folks at the emissions technical center were friendly and nobody can expect them to be experts on every vehicle that rolls into their shop

Particularly if it's a vehicle that was never sold in USA.