Let's talk about reciever winching (1 Viewer)

[Heckraiser]

So last I read, class III recievers were for a maximum tow weight of 5000lbs and if you have a load distributing system which is a class III/IV recieved hitch it has a max of 8000lbs. with a class IV having a maximum of 10000lbs, with a weight distribution type class IV it goes up to 12000lbs. I havent seen a cruiser with a class III/IV reciever or a class IV. As mentioned for straight line pulling and tongue weights of not more than 10% of the rated towing capacity. So in a pinch a multi-mount winch would work. Though you are technically over exerting the reciever and overall design of the tow bar. Multi-mounts have been used for a long time with great success, but it's similar to using a class III hitch to tow an 8000lb truck, or to recover a stuck truck with a snatch strap, it may work a few times, or possibly indefinitely, but it's not safe. If you watch videos on proper off road vehicle recovery most will mention not using a snatch strap with an under rated recieved for safety reasons. But as I always say. Try it, if it doesn't work figure out the why and then fix it, and try it again until it works right. Just do everyone around and yourself a favor and exercise extreme caution and safety.
You can argue numbers of recievers all day, I just used figures from CURT and REESE as they,re of the higher ratings...you wouldn't want to see what u-haul rates their recievers at...everyone would be pretty disappointed at how under rated they are...pretty sure they use mostly u-haul branded Draw-tite recievers..though not %100 sure. Hope it helps.

Chiming in here as the original poster. Just to clarify, I have no intention of using an off-the shelf receiver. I plan to make my own rear and front cross members (or maybe whole bumpers). The rear will either completely replace or substantially reinforce the stock rear cross member. And I will definitely overbuild them with side-loads in mind. As for the winch cradle itself, I haven't done too much shopping, but I've got a welder and a pile of tube stock, so I'm thinking I can reinforce an off-the shelf product or make my own if needed.

Carrying the thing around will indeed be a b**ch, but I don't plan on using it a lot--more of a safety net. I also avoid mud like the plague. As for securing it in the back of the truck, I was going to build something using the rear seat mounting brackets or tie downs so the winch would actually be secured by a locked receiver in the back when not in use.

Bhicks, how do you handle the hood running jumper cables to the winch? Have you had any trouble keeping the clamps secure?

 

[bhicks]

X2. I would NEVER winch with an off the shelf receiver. WAY too much side load pulls and stress. I always designed my own bumpers specifically designed for winching with the receiver.

 

[LandCruisinMy93]

Chiming in here as the original poster. Just to clarify, I have no intention of using an off-the shelf receiver. I plan to make my own rear and front cross members (or maybe whole bumpers). The rear will either completely replace or substantially reinforce the stock rear cross member. And I will definitely overbuild them with side-loads in mind. As for the winch cradle itself, I haven't done too much shopping, but I've got a welder and a pile of tube stock, so I'm thinking I can reinforce an off-the shelf product or make my own if needed.

Carrying the thing around will indeed be a b**ch, but I don't plan on using it a lot--more of a safety net. I also avoid mud like the plague. As for securing it in the back of the truck, I was going to build something using the rear seat mounting brackets or tie downs so the winch would actually be secured by a locked receiver in the back when not in use.

Bhicks, how do you handle the hood running jumper cables to the winch? Have you had any trouble keeping the clamps secure?

I did the same thing with my rear bumper, built it to fit over the rear frame rails and side drilled through and used the tow hook bolts and 2 trough the mount and through the frame. Built my reciever tube into the body of my bumper and then created a cross tube and substantial gusseting that tied into the frame mount brackets. Everything is completely inter-connected. Good plan for a reciever.

 

[NCFJ]

I have fully braced receivers built into my bumpers on my off road rigs and also a fully braced receiver on the front of my PU, I would use the class IV receiver on my PU without worry, that thing is beyond stout. Talk to an engineer about possible side loads put on a 2" receiver. Point being, that this kind of equipment is designed with worse case scenarios and then a factor of 2 or 3 as a minimum. I am guessing that worse case scenario in this case would be a 10K trailer in a jack knife. I do not use the rear receiver on the PU often, and cant recall a side load use but I would not hesitate to use it.

 

[e9999]

I would not store a winch in the back with straps routinely while off-roading...

 

[inkpot]

I would not store a winch in the back with straps routinely while off-roading...

So, you can't find straps as strong as seat belts?

 

[e9999]

So, you can't find straps as strong as seat belts?

easily. In fact I have DOT ratchet straps that are rated at something like 12 or 15,000lbs IIRC, so that's the easy part. But at the point where I have to work out a way to set up good straps securely in the back and work out how to attach them securely to the winch I could probably make that a fixed hardware system with not much more work and which would likely be much more foolproof. But eh to each his own...

 

[Schmutz]

bhicks, thanks for your input. Your setup sounds simple, versatile, and effective. Since I'll use the winch 95% for the occasional recovery situation, I don't mind taking a few minutes to string a few cables first. Besides, I had a mild heart-attack today when I priced 30' of 2/0 and 1/0 battery cables at the auto-parts store!
The associate did make a valid point, however, that I will take into consideration, and I share it for further comment. He advised me to check the max amp draw that the winch might require (like in a worst-case scenario), and then make sure that my intended length of cable can handle the load. Apparently, the longer the cable is, the thicker it needs to be to sustain the max amp draw. If it is insufficient, the cable can burn up, or even worse, the winch can burn up. Obviously you haven't had this problem though. Anyway, I will do a little research just to make sure. Not wanting to over-complicate this project, but it is a noteworthy consideration.
Will post my findings for those who might be interested.

 

[bhicks]

bhicks, thanks for your input. Your setup sounds simple, versatile, and effective. Since I'll use the winch 95% for the occasional recovery situation, I don't mind taking a few minutes to string a few cables first. Besides, I had a mild heart-attack today when I priced 30' of 2/0 and 1/0 battery cables at the auto-parts store!
The associate did make a valid point, however, that I will take into consideration, and I share it for further comment. He advised me to check the max amp draw that the winch might require (like in a worst-case scenario), and then make sure that my intended length of cable can handle the load. Apparently, the longer the cable is, the thicker it needs to be to sustain the max amp draw. If it is insufficient, the cable can burn up, or even worse, the winch can burn up. Obviously you haven't had this problem though. Anyway, I will do a little research just to make sure. Not wanting to over-complicate this project, but it is a noteworthy consideration.
Will post my findings for those who might be interested.

Exactly why I said you need 4guage jumper cables. Those are stupid thick. There intended use was for big rigs. At least that was the picture on the box they came in .Most jumper cables for cars are in the 8-12 gauage range. I never had a cable get hot on me or have any melting issues of any kind.

 

[e9999]

bhicks, thanks for your input. Your setup sounds simple, versatile, and effective. Since I'll use the winch 95% for the occasional recovery situation, I don't mind taking a few minutes to string a few cables first. Besides, I had a mild heart-attack today when I priced 30' of 2/0 and 1/0 battery cables at the auto-parts store!
The associate did make a valid point, however, that I will take into consideration, and I share it for further comment. He advised me to check the max amp draw that the winch might require (like in a worst-case scenario), and then make sure that my intended length of cable can handle the load. Apparently, the longer the cable is, the thicker it needs to be to sustain the max amp draw. If it is insufficient, the cable can burn up, or even worse, the winch can burn up. Obviously you haven't had this problem though. Anyway, I will do a little research just to make sure. Not wanting to over-complicate this project, but it is a noteworthy consideration.
Will post my findings for those who might be interested.

of course the wire has to be thick enough to handle the current as in the temperatures it will produce by Joule heating. The length issue is more having to do with the voltage drop you'd experience at the winch end, I would think. You might want it thicker to reduce the voltage drop that you'd otherwise have. Having an overly low voltage supply at the winch would likely have a negative effect such as reducing its power, speed and what not. On the positive side, I don't know how an overly thin cable would have anything to do with the winch burning up though, as in flames if that is you meant, besides the wire starting to burn if too small then the truck and eventually the winch as well... shudder... If you think about it, that's exactly how fuses work, they are a thin enough wire that if the current is too high they will melt off, thereby protecting the rest of the circuit and the end device, not turning the latter into a bonfire as your sales associate seems to imply.

You can easily find charts out there that will tell you the max current that a wire of given diameter and given insulation type can handle to keep it below a standard temp that is safe for the insulation. Conversely, there are charts that will tell you the minimum gauge you need with a given current and given length to limit the voltage drop at the end to some level, say 10% for a non-critical or 3% for a critical application.

 

[ppc]

Exactly why I said you need 4guage jumper cables. Those are stupid thick. There intended use was for big rigs. At least that was the picture on the box they came in .Most jumper cables for cars are in the 8-12 gauage range. I never had a cable get hot on me or have any melting issues of any kind.

4 gauge is undersized, the "stupid thick" must be related to the insulation not the conductor. The 24' Warn remote wiring harness is 2 gauge with large diameter strands of copper which I think is still undersized for the length. Welding cable uses small diameter strands which is a more efficient conductor.

 

[bhicks]

4 gauge is undersized, the "stupid thick" must be related to the insulation not the conductor. The 24' Warn remote wiring harness is 2 gauge with large diameter strands of copper which I think is still undersized for the length. Welding cable uses small diameter strands which is a more efficient conductor.

Maybe I'm wrong then. I was pretty sure that they were 4 guage cables. They were beefier then the actual winch cables that came on my rough country 12k and my HF12k. They were the thcikest I could find and were suggested by numerous guys over on jeepforum a few years back. I may still have the receipt which would probably show what guage they were.

 

[bhicks]

I found the receipt and they are made my ABN. I did a quick search and found the exact ones on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Commercial-Pa...3398351&sr=8-4&keywords=2+gauge+jumper+cables
Red bag is still the same. They ARE 2 guage. I guess I should get my facts straight. I guess after a few years I got a little foggy.

 

[e9999]

4 gauge is undersized, the "stupid thick" must be related to the insulation not the conductor. The 24' Warn remote wiring harness is 2 gauge with large diameter strands of copper which I think is still undersized for the length. Welding cable uses small diameter strands which is a more efficient conductor.

4ga does seem way small for a winch. Your typical 4ga plastic insulated wire is probably good for around 100A, not close to the 4 or 500A you could need in a max pull with a big winch.

(I would, however, think that a multicore wire will need to be thicker for a given current capacity than a single core wire *for DC* because of the spaces between the strands. How are thinner strands more efficient in DC? Yes, there are some skin effects for AC but that may not be relevant here. OTOH, the strands diameter will affect the flexibility which I imagine is what the welding cables are mostly after.)

 

[e9999]

I found the receipt and they are made my ABN. I did a quick search and found the exact ones on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Commercial-Pa...3398351&sr=8-4&keywords=2+gauge+jumper+cables
Red bag is still the same. They ARE 2 guage. I guess I should get my facts straight. I guess after a few years I got a little foggy.

I had a quick look at some wire tables. 600A seems rather optimistic for 2ga. I see numbers more like 150-200A. For copper! Of course, that also depends on the type and thickness of insulation, numbers of strands etc. I suspect the 600A "rating" mentioned in the ad would be for a very short time only. Maybe OK for a few secs of cranking a starter, as intended, less so for minutes of winching. Remember it's all about temperature of the insulation so the duration of use is important. I imagine that OTOH the ratings in the tables are given for continuous use in order to be conservative.
Also, your ad did not make clear whether the wire is copper or aluminum. There are copper-clad alum wires out there, not as good as solid copper at transporting current, but looking good and cheaper (and for better contact). I would think that if it is solid copper, they would advertise it prominently as such, another reason to look at their amp claims skeptically. Copper is more expensive than aluminum. If you have cut your wires you can probably easily tell which it is. Anyway, all in all, I'd be careful about using cheap jumper cables for winch use.

 

[ppc]

(I would, however, think that a multicore wire will need to be thicker for a given current capacity than a single core wire, because of the spaces between the strands. How are thinner strands more efficient?)

Electrons travel on the outside surface of a wire not through the core. Welding cable has smaller wires but a much larger quantity which yields more surface area.

 

[e9999]

Electrons travel on the outside surface of a wire not through the core. Welding cable has smaller wires but a much larger quantity which yields more surface area.

yes, skin effects may be an issue for AC, not so much for DC I think. I had made it clearer in my post above that I meant DC, sorry. With welding cables, there is the flexibility issue and also potentially an AC component, I imagine that may be the main reason they use fine-stranded cables. But I can be wrong on all that.

 

[Blade 80LC]

I ran that set up with wires to the front and rear on my old mini truck. Wouldn't do it again. Transporting it when not in use is a pain in the back side. If you keep it in the receivers, it ruins your approach or departure angles. Our you can ratchet strap it down in the back like I did. You just then have to worry about it flying around in a wreck. Mine came loose in a rollover on the trail.
Other issue is when you need it, you are normally on loose, slippery, or on even terrain. Or all the above. Not really conducive to carrying a 100 plus pound winch and cradle to the front or back of the truck. My 200lbs plus another 100lbs make you sink pretty deep in the mud.

I had similar experience with a universal mount. I kept my mount on the back of my mini truck, when I had a universal. When I was 165 pounds and worked out 5 days a week, it was a bear to muscle around on a trail. 30 years older, 40 pounds heavier, and less fit (by a fair margin); and I'll pass. It was handy on at least one occasion when I decided self recovery back, made more sense than continuing.

I have fully braced receivers built into my bumpers on my off road rigs and also a fully braced receiver on the front of my PU, I would use the class IV receiver on my PU without worry, that thing is beyond stout. Talk to an engineer about possible side loads put on a 2" receiver. Point being, that this kind of equipment is designed with worse case scenarios and then a factor of 2 or 3 as a minimum. I am guessing that worse case scenario in this case would be a 10K trailer in a jack knife. I do not use the rear receiver on the PU often, and cant recall a side load use but I would not hesitate to use it.

^ THIS. Receivers are rated for how heavy a trailer you can attach to them. The max load they'll handle is higher.

I had a quick look at some wire tables. 600A seems rather optimistic for 2ga. I see numbers more like 150-200A. For copper! Of course, that also depends on the type and thickness of insulation, numbers of strands etc. I suspect the 600A "rating" mentioned in the ad would be for a very short time only. Maybe OK for a few secs of cranking a starter, as intended, less so for minutes of winching. Remember it's all about temperature of the insulation so the duration of use is important. I imagine that OTOH the ratings in the tables are given for continuous use in order to be conservative.
Also, your ad did not make clear whether the wire is copper or aluminum. There are copper-clad alum wires out there, not as good as solid copper at transporting current, but looking good and cheaper (and for better contact). I would think that if it is solid copper, they would advertise it prominently as such, another reason to look at their amp claims skeptically. Copper is more expensive than aluminum. If you have cut your wires you can probably easily tell which it is. Anyway, all in all, I'd be careful about using cheap jumper cables for winch use.

Tough to argue with success in real world use. If he's been using 2ga. and it worked, it worked. I agree 2ga. is on the small side for a long winch cable. In a long pull, it would start to heat. As it heats, resistance goes up. Higher resistance will make it heat faster. It will go from barely warm to hot, surprisingly quickly.

That said, I still went with 2ga. when I ran wire to the back of my truck. It was all I decided to afford. It held up fine on the few occasions I used it. ...and yes 2 gauge wire looks crazy thick, it just may not be thick enough.

 

[bhicks]

I had a quick look at some wire tables. 600A seems rather optimistic for 2ga. I see numbers more like 150-200A. For copper! Of course, that also depends on the type and thickness of insulation, numbers of strands etc. I suspect the 600A "rating" mentioned in the ad would be for a very short time only. Maybe OK for a few secs of cranking a starter, as intended, less so for minutes of winching. Remember it's all about temperature of the insulation so the duration of use is important. I imagine that OTOH the ratings in the tables are given for continuous use in order to be conservative.
Also, your ad did not make clear whether the wire is copper or aluminum. There are copper-clad alum wires out there, not as good as solid copper at transporting current, but looking good and cheaper (and for better contact). I would think that if it is solid copper, they would advertise it prominently as such, another reason to look at their amp claims skeptically. Copper is more expensive than aluminum. If you have cut your wires you can probably easily tell which it is. Anyway, all in all, I'd be careful about using cheap jumper cables for winch use.

If I remember correctly (a few years of foggy memories back) the wires were copper. I still have the jumper cable ends in my garage that I cut off. When I get home from work I will try to dig them up and see what I had. The one thing I do know, is that those cables gave me MANY long and short pulls over multiple years with zero issues. Probably 70-80% of those pulls were doing landscaping on my property moving rail road ties, tree stumps, and large rocks. Some pulls were the full length of the rope. The rest of the pulls were on the trail. Never an issue and never a hot wire, plug, or end. I'm not an electrician and just copied what had been done before me and it worked well. The big draw back in the hole system was just moving that stupid winch around.

 

[Schmutz]

If I remember correctly (a few years of foggy memories back) the wires were copper. I still have the jumper cable ends in my garage that I cut off. When I get home from work I will try to dig them up and see what I had. The one thing I do know, is that those cables gave me MANY long and short pulls over multiple years with zero issues.

I am curious to see what the cable material is, and look forward to your findings later. Either way, one cannot argue with real-world success, especially over all those years. FWIW I am using a Badlands 9K winch from HFT. According to the manual, the max amp draw for a 9k lb pull is 322 amps. If your cables are rated for 600A, then in my simplistic mind, I think they, or something similar, should work just fine.