Not true, I have ran many electrics while under water (12 volts) its not an issue
FWIW, I think both hydro and electric suck..... I use a come-a-long (hand winch)
latest on hydraulic winches for the *80*?
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Not true, I have ran many electrics while under water (12 volts) its not an issue
FWIW, I think both hydro and electric suck..... I use a come-a-long (hand winch)
Not true, I have ran many electrics while under water (12 volts) its not an issue
FWIW, I think both hydro and electric suck..... I use a come-a-long (hand winch)
I also have run my 8274 under water with no problem. It was a situation where I got in too deep in a water/mud hole and drowned the engine. Electric winch was my friend, however I have also been in a situation where I needed to pull for a long distance through deep snow and couldn't make it because my 8274 was having heat issues and wasn't up to the continuous full cable pulls. It made about 4 before telling me it wasn't working. May have been battery/charging problems leading to reduced pulling power. Anyway I've seen situations where both would be better. I think personally that an ideal setup would be a hydro front and electric rear, or maybe vise versa. It'd be sweet to see someone modify an 8274 to use a hydro motor. Shouldn't be that hard, plus you could just keep the electric motor and solenoids in the vehicle and swap out in an emergency. Just dreaming here. anyway good luck.
This is starting to make some sense...I like this idea!
alia176
SILVER Star
Slee sells a 3 groove pulley for the York air compressor setup. You can easily use this pulley to run a separate pump. Northern tools has a clutch driven pump that would be great for this application. I don't know if the mounting surface of this pump is close to the York mounting bracket that Slee sells. Even if it isn't, you can easily modify the York air comp bracket to suit your needs.
Pump URL:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_576_576
The thing is quite costly but you get the idea.
Just an idea.
Pump URL:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_576_576
The thing is quite costly but you get the idea.
Just an idea.
The best winch is the one installed in my truck that got me unstuck last week.
I think you may agree when you apply the same perspective to your winch.
I think you may agree when you apply the same perspective to your winch.
alia,
rather than running one of the NT pumps just get another dedicated PS pump, similar to what Christo did on the shortbus? The higher psi and flow of the hydro assist or full hydro systems would work well with the Milemarker winches. Plus the upside to using a PS pump is you wouldn't need a clutch as the systems are designed to bypass fluid when there is no demand. Not to mention cost savings. The one issue Christo and I talked about was mounting a pump where the PAIR valve is located is having a reservoir lower than the pump inlet.
rather than running one of the NT pumps just get another dedicated PS pump, similar to what Christo did on the shortbus? The higher psi and flow of the hydro assist or full hydro systems would work well with the Milemarker winches. Plus the upside to using a PS pump is you wouldn't need a clutch as the systems are designed to bypass fluid when there is no demand. Not to mention cost savings. The one issue Christo and I talked about was mounting a pump where the PAIR valve is located is having a reservoir lower than the pump inlet.
Yup,
Had my 8274 WAY under water several times. No problem.
I read an article about a year ago where someone over in the UK modified an 8274 to run off of a hydraulic motor. They did a great job on it, it looked factory.
wildsmith
SILVER Star
Sorry if this is a bit long but I've got a PS pump powered hydraulic winch and have spent a fair bit of time pondering where to go next winch wise. This is on a UK spec 1994 HDJ80.
I've got an Ox 10500lb which is a Milemarker with a different motor designed to cope with the pressure and flow of PS pumps like the 80's. Compared to installing an electric winch, installing the Ox was very simple. One pipe to the PS pump and one to the steering box, then mount the hand controller socket. It's been on nearly 5 years now with zero maintenance and always works when I need it, always pulls even with multiple vehicles attached, but it is very very slow. So slow you have to watch the wheels to see if they're turning.
It's not very often I go some where I know I'll need the winch to get through, it's a backup device for when I get it wrong. If I were going places I knew I'd need the winch a lot then I don't think I'd choose a PS pump powered one. I always carry a hand winch as a backup as well and I'd use that for putting the 80 back on its wheels if another powered winch wasn't available.
More recently (2 years ago!) I bought a Type-R modified Milemarker from www.4x4winches.com which comes with a separate 20hp pump. It was a bit of a spur of the moment purchase that I don't really need but I've spent the money so I'd better fit it, eventually!
The original plan was to fit the pump where my air con pump used to be and run a toothed belt to an extra pulley on the crank. A toothed belt or chain is needed (I'm told) because a 20hp pump will slip normal belts. I've heard stories of even the small ZF pumps having slip problems in wet/muddy conditions. The belt wouldn't clear the cooling fan so I converted to electric fans but then wasn't impressed with how long they needed to run and worried about reliability although it might be my radiator needs replacing is the real problem. The standard fan went back on.
Plan B is I've fitted a PTO and need to get a drive shaft for a Toyota PTO winch and sort out coupling it to the pump which will now mount to a chassis rail along side the main gearbox or maybe in the front bumper.
Sorting out power for the Type-R is no simple thing for my abilities and I probably should have stuck with the Ox. It's definately more complicated than installing an electric winch.
Jon.
I've got an Ox 10500lb which is a Milemarker with a different motor designed to cope with the pressure and flow of PS pumps like the 80's. Compared to installing an electric winch, installing the Ox was very simple. One pipe to the PS pump and one to the steering box, then mount the hand controller socket. It's been on nearly 5 years now with zero maintenance and always works when I need it, always pulls even with multiple vehicles attached, but it is very very slow. So slow you have to watch the wheels to see if they're turning.
It's not very often I go some where I know I'll need the winch to get through, it's a backup device for when I get it wrong. If I were going places I knew I'd need the winch a lot then I don't think I'd choose a PS pump powered one. I always carry a hand winch as a backup as well and I'd use that for putting the 80 back on its wheels if another powered winch wasn't available.
More recently (2 years ago!) I bought a Type-R modified Milemarker from www.4x4winches.com which comes with a separate 20hp pump. It was a bit of a spur of the moment purchase that I don't really need but I've spent the money so I'd better fit it, eventually!
The original plan was to fit the pump where my air con pump used to be and run a toothed belt to an extra pulley on the crank. A toothed belt or chain is needed (I'm told) because a 20hp pump will slip normal belts. I've heard stories of even the small ZF pumps having slip problems in wet/muddy conditions. The belt wouldn't clear the cooling fan so I converted to electric fans but then wasn't impressed with how long they needed to run and worried about reliability although it might be my radiator needs replacing is the real problem. The standard fan went back on.
Plan B is I've fitted a PTO and need to get a drive shaft for a Toyota PTO winch and sort out coupling it to the pump which will now mount to a chassis rail along side the main gearbox or maybe in the front bumper.
Sorting out power for the Type-R is no simple thing for my abilities and I probably should have stuck with the Ox. It's definately more complicated than installing an electric winch.
Jon.
The original plan was to fit the pump where my air con pump used to be and run a toothed belt to an extra pulley on the crank. A toothed belt or chain is needed (I'm told) because a 20hp pump will slip normal belts. I've heard stories of even the small ZF pumps having slip problems in wet/muddy conditions. The belt wouldn't clear the cooling fan so I converted to electric fans but then wasn't impressed with how long they needed to run and worried about reliability although it might be my radiator needs replacing is the real problem. The standard fan went back on.
Plan B is I've fitted a PTO and need to get a drive shaft for a Toyota PTO winch and sort out coupling it to the pump which will now mount to a chassis rail along side the main gearbox or maybe in the front bumper.
Sorting out power for the Type-R is no simple thing for my abilities and I probably should have stuck with the Ox. It's definately more complicated than installing an electric winch.
Jon.[/QUOTE]
I have heard the same thing that Jon is relating. In order to get a hydraulic winch to pull both fast and hard you will need to pull about 20 HP off the engine. This is too much for one belt to handle and might be pushing it for two belts. I concur that a PTO driven off the tcase would be ideal. Northern Tools sells one for use with tractors that has the typical spline arrangement for an input shaft. We need an easy way of extending the input shaft on the tcase to accomodate this PTO pump. Specs are 23 GPM at 1000RPM. Literature says you need a reservoir capacity of 1-2 times the pump output, so 23-46 gallons. That is a lot of hydraulic fluid to be carrying around.
David Sword
Plan B is I've fitted a PTO and need to get a drive shaft for a Toyota PTO winch and sort out coupling it to the pump which will now mount to a chassis rail along side the main gearbox or maybe in the front bumper.
Sorting out power for the Type-R is no simple thing for my abilities and I probably should have stuck with the Ox. It's definately more complicated than installing an electric winch.
Jon.[/QUOTE]
I have heard the same thing that Jon is relating. In order to get a hydraulic winch to pull both fast and hard you will need to pull about 20 HP off the engine. This is too much for one belt to handle and might be pushing it for two belts. I concur that a PTO driven off the tcase would be ideal. Northern Tools sells one for use with tractors that has the typical spline arrangement for an input shaft. We need an easy way of extending the input shaft on the tcase to accomodate this PTO pump. Specs are 23 GPM at 1000RPM. Literature says you need a reservoir capacity of 1-2 times the pump output, so 23-46 gallons. That is a lot of hydraulic fluid to be carrying around.
David Sword
- Thread starter
- #70
no doubt one can rig lots of interesting things to get a hydraulic winch going.
I guess, though, for most of us, if the hydraulic winch is to become a mainstream reality it has to be a pretty much a plug and play affair. Ideally off the OEM PS pump. If not, then an easy replacement. It looks like putting a 12K MM in and running it off the OEM pump is giving us about 9K or so effectively and probably quite a bit slower. If the plumbing is not too bad it's a decent approach but I don't see that that would save much if any money over a decent electric. And as discussed here pros and cons to both sides.
I guess, though, for most of us, if the hydraulic winch is to become a mainstream reality it has to be a pretty much a plug and play affair. Ideally off the OEM PS pump. If not, then an easy replacement. It looks like putting a 12K MM in and running it off the OEM pump is giving us about 9K or so effectively and probably quite a bit slower. If the plumbing is not too bad it's a decent approach but I don't see that that would save much if any money over a decent electric. And as discussed here pros and cons to both sides.
I know this is an old thread, but I was searching for something else (distance between chassis rails at the front) and found it.
I have a TDS 9.5 (electric) winch which I've waterproofed and will work under water with no problem.
I have to take issue with some of the comments here about electric winches "overheating". The only way that's realistically going to happen is winching down rather than up when the brake can overheat so you need to do it in 15 second chunks with a good rest in between. In terms of pulling up or pulling a vehicle, the motor is not going to overheat.
The other thing I've read quite a few times on here is that pulling snatch blocks in increases the pulling power. It doesn't. What it does do is reduce the amp draw. So if you double line a pull with a single snatch block, that halves the amp draw from a single line pull. Whilst physics says that the pull will be half speed, in reality it isn't because the motor can work easier so actual speed is more like 75% of single line pull, not 50%. If you three line it, you get an even lower amp draw, and then you start to get mechanical advantage with the line as well, though it does not "increase" the pounds "pullability" of the motor.
All electric winches have an advertised pull weight which is based on the first wrap. Once you are over that you lose between 10 and 30% PER WRAP of the advertised load. So basically, if you are winching from a tree strop to a vehicle which is badly stuck and the tree to vehicle distance is short, the more lines you can get out (safely) and blocks etc, the easier the recovery is going to be both in terms of the pull and the pressure on the winch motor and the vehicle battery. I see people doing single line pulls all the time on vehicles on 45 degree slopes with short lines and it makes me wince. The pressure on the motor and the battery in that scenario is huge. Couple that with a standard vehicle weight of over 3 tons, add in a 45 degree slope and a load of mud and you're on the second wrap due to a short line and suddenly your (first wrap) rated 12000 pounds is down to around 8,000 pounds, and you're trying to pull an actual load of around 8,000 pounds. At that point the math is not hard in terms of the strains on the equipment.
However, there is no need for a further battery to operate an electric winch, it's fine on the stock battery though obviously its not sensible to use it without the engine on except in an emergency. I see no reason to run a hydraulic winch on a passenger vehicle for self recovery or recovery of others. However, each to their own and your mileage may vary etc.
I have a TDS 9.5 (electric) winch which I've waterproofed and will work under water with no problem.
I have to take issue with some of the comments here about electric winches "overheating". The only way that's realistically going to happen is winching down rather than up when the brake can overheat so you need to do it in 15 second chunks with a good rest in between. In terms of pulling up or pulling a vehicle, the motor is not going to overheat.
The other thing I've read quite a few times on here is that pulling snatch blocks in increases the pulling power. It doesn't. What it does do is reduce the amp draw. So if you double line a pull with a single snatch block, that halves the amp draw from a single line pull. Whilst physics says that the pull will be half speed, in reality it isn't because the motor can work easier so actual speed is more like 75% of single line pull, not 50%. If you three line it, you get an even lower amp draw, and then you start to get mechanical advantage with the line as well, though it does not "increase" the pounds "pullability" of the motor.
All electric winches have an advertised pull weight which is based on the first wrap. Once you are over that you lose between 10 and 30% PER WRAP of the advertised load. So basically, if you are winching from a tree strop to a vehicle which is badly stuck and the tree to vehicle distance is short, the more lines you can get out (safely) and blocks etc, the easier the recovery is going to be both in terms of the pull and the pressure on the winch motor and the vehicle battery. I see people doing single line pulls all the time on vehicles on 45 degree slopes with short lines and it makes me wince. The pressure on the motor and the battery in that scenario is huge. Couple that with a standard vehicle weight of over 3 tons, add in a 45 degree slope and a load of mud and you're on the second wrap due to a short line and suddenly your (first wrap) rated 12000 pounds is down to around 8,000 pounds, and you're trying to pull an actual load of around 8,000 pounds. At that point the math is not hard in terms of the strains on the equipment.
However, there is no need for a further battery to operate an electric winch, it's fine on the stock battery though obviously its not sensible to use it without the engine on except in an emergency. I see no reason to run a hydraulic winch on a passenger vehicle for self recovery or recovery of others. However, each to their own and your mileage may vary etc.
just to correct something here. In another thread on our PS pumps they were tested to have 1500 PSI. So running any MM hydraulic will give you the rated pulling power but since the GPM isn't there it will run slow.
And these winches are pretty much plug and play. But to make things a little neater you can get custom length hoses made up which is in my winch thread.
