Joel's multipurpose 40 on 41s

Discussion in 'HardCore Corner' started by frijolee, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. frijolee

    frijolee

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    I cut all my plies ahead of time and have them prepped so I know exactly what I’m reaching for when. Rough cutting is fine as you can trim edges and stragglers as you go. One nice thing about epoxy is the extended cure times.

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    Turned out nice. 3-4 layers at the crack, 2 elsewhere.

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    I was getting ready to go after the topside and prepped the surface for glass over the front third. If you’re hardcore it’s better to take off all the gel coat, but I was trying to keep this simple and took the gel down until it was just starting to show glass through.

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    I was also still thinking about all those broken bolts from the side panels and the like. I was not looking forward to drilling all those… what a nightmare. It was weird to me that the majority would break loose, start to turn, and then after a turn you felt it seize up and snap. As such, I decided the best thing to do was commit and take the roof trim off completely. Had Randy cut the 50 or so rivets. I also ordered a rivet gun and bucking bar kit so theoretically I can put some of this stuff back.

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    Pulling the trim is nice in that it’ll let me seal the drip rail properly and make several other repairs easier as well, this inner surface is begging for some POR 15. Most of the bolts we were broke had rust nuggets formed at the tip which I’m assuming is what we feel jamming. No way that was going to pull through so think we did the right thing. We got ~15 of the broken guys out from the top should minimize repairs, but there’s still some work ahead.

    Unfortunately, Randy did manage to carve into the lip quite a bit pulling rivets (once again, YAY for extra folks pushing me to keep moving. BOO for stuff getting jacked up when others aren’t as meticulous as I am). Brass tacks: I called an audible and we did a bonus round of fiberglass and glassed the entire perimeter with a couple layers of 10” strips.

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    A couple more tips on fiberglass. It doesn’t like sharp bends. For instance, you pretty much can’t wrap a sharp edge. The glass will just bulge around to find a gentler radius curve leaving with air gaps or “bridging” to use the industry term. If you have access to vacuum bagging a great deal of this is an non-issue (but then again if you’re vacuum bagging you probably don’t need my advice).

    I worked on my edges for probably an hour at the end of this effort, just working the radiused 45 degree convex area where it transitioned to the flange. I clipped all the stray strands (scissors you can disassembly to clean--IE Cutco--are a big help). The overall edges get final cut with a razor blade when the resin is firm but not fully hard.

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    The above is also why composite mold edges wear down over time since part after part typically gets razor cut to the same edge shaving it down over time.

    With that done, I finally flipped back to the topside. Since there were now grooves to fill at the rivets, I had Randy sand the whole roof, fill the divots (bondo), and then we put two layers of glass over everything up top.

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    Here I ran the seams fore aft and staggered the overlaps to minimize thickness (and eventually, the sanding and fairing required).

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    I was actually surprised how well the corners laid down, I was sure we were going to have to angle cut the plies to make the convex corners work out.

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    By the time this back together, I should have about the strongest FJ40 roof out there. Not sure it’d survive a roll, but I’ve done what I could (and then some). To anyone freezing back East, I’m sorry, but damn was I thankful for sunny Socal. The nice weather made this all much easier to tackle.
     
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  2. A10Driver

    A10Driver SILVER Star

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    Thanks for the solid write up, I am going to be joining two tops for my 4 door and will definitely be looking through this again
     
  3. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Very welcome. It's not bad. Especially if you use epoxy and have extra working time.

    Next step after the glass was to ditch my projects and go wheeling a bit while since SoCal's weather has been so perfect. I figured if the rest of the world is freezing, it would be disrespectful if I didn't get out and enjoy it a bit.

    Quick jaunt with the "SoCal Trail Buds" had one dude with a decent camera and ended up with some of the best pictures I've ever had of my original "multipurpose" rig. The one in the trees made the cover page of the Trail Buds facebook page!

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    There's a heavy Toyota contingency in the Trail Buds, but my little XJ represented pretty well. Working a hard line option that no one else took... The rock vs. rocker potential was high.

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    Hope you're having a brilliant New Year and if it's cold where you're at, I hope the snow wheeling is rad. The trail wheeling actually raises a bit of an odd question. Who the heck will I wheel with when the FJ40 is done? On the one hand, it should walk some pretty serious stuff. On the other hand, I don't need to hang with rock bouncers and the crazy hardcore guys who don't care if they flop down the side of the mountain.

    -Joel
     
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  4. SuperBuickGuy

    SuperBuickGuy

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    fiberglass... yeah, I know that stuff. I'm in the midst of putting a hood scoop, custom image corvette flares, and a 73 tail on my Corvette

    about easier - I was just talking about that very thing today, trails that were challenging are boring now so I need to find better challenges. It's a fun problem to have, though.
     
  5. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Sounds like a cool project. Got a build thread somewhere?

    I'm actually hoping that the biggest difference between my XJ a the FJ40 will be power. Throwing donuts in the dirt, rooster tails off all four tires. The hooning around kinda stuff that side by side are so good at. That's the biggest motivation for my FJ build. (Well that and making something cool). I just gotta figure out how to do so and not flop/destroy it.
     
  6. SuperBuickGuy

    SuperBuickGuy

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  7. frijolee

    frijolee

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    In other news the engine is back in the rig. It’ll have to come back apart at least one more time so I didn’t bother with flex-plate or converter. I do need to be sure I can install the converter access cover after the fact, so at least I can try that now.

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    The front cross bar is now about a 1/16” too short so (weld deformation from all the tower work) so I may do something about that eventually. It still installs OK you just need a bar clamp to do so.

    Good news… The high mount holley setup looks like it’ll be fine.

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    The bad news: Holley just came out with a mid mount setup that looks like would have been so much easier! NEW PRODUCT: Holley Introduces Revolutionary Mid-Mount LS Accessory Drive – No Brackets!

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    Anyways, getting the engine back in is mostly about letting me work on my next big trouble area: Pedals and booster vs. steering vs. headers vs. remote oil cooler. It’s gonnna be tight (or maybe not, more on that in a second).

    Order of events matter since some things have more and less flexibility on where they need to go. I’m designing with the following prioritization:

    1) Brake pedal and booster. Pretty much non-negotiable where it goes, at least once I pick a pedal.
    2) Steering, again only so many options, planning to run down the upper control link
    3) Throttle & Dead pedal (kinda flow off the brake)
    4) Headers
    5) Remote Oil Cooler

    I have a spare master booster setup lying around from a Subaru Impreza of some sort (junkyard find). I’d been debating throwing it on the RX7, following a few good reviews but it’s lower priority than some other things. It at least lets me ball park the space needed for a booster.

    Pedals are an issue. I have the stock FJ40 pedal box but it’s an all in one and way too tall. Before I cut the thing to smithereens I decided to check the aftermarket. Got really excited about a simple wildwood setup.

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    But it turns out the 7:1 pedal ratio is really intended for manual brakes and given the big tires I have my heart set on a power brake booster. If I wanted to trade pedal stroke for power, I’d do that with different master cylinders. By the way both my front and rear calipers run huge pistons. The fronts are factory D60 calipers from a late 70s Ford 350 van. The rears are 73-87 Chevy 3/4 Ton 4x4 front calipers and rotors. All in all it looks like I’ll need a 1.25” master so I have some parts bin diving to do. A power brake setup wants more like a 4:1 pedal ratio to match. After doing a bunch of digging on ebay I eventually landed on s2000 pedals. They’re a 3.75:1 ratio, not sure on exact height but look compact, and most importantly, they’re all on individual brackets so I can position easier. It looked close enough and for $50 shipped I’m gonna given them a go.

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    Steering I may land a get out of jail free card on. It looks like I have enough space to install the steering control valve (orbital valve, albeit Billavista claims that term is wrong)… under the dash. I’ll need a shield since it’s high pressure lines but it looks much easier than getting past booster and/or putting this in the vicinity of headers.

    So with the two big pieces roughed out in my head, I decided to skip ahead and take a look at headers.

    If you’ve followed this thread from the beginning may remember how stoked I was on a Liquid Iron Industries headers setup built for Erik Miller’s Ultra 4 car.

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    I borrowed a set of Ice Blocks (AKA header legos) from Anthony and went to town. It’s a 1 3/4 set and I’m planning on 1 7/8 so I had to get creative to make it work. Compounding things is that I ended up with a 2” header flange from Anthony so these suckers really want to fall out. Whatever, they’re still cool. You just get to be a little creative in supporting things.

    First pass, attempting a version of the Liquid Iron setup.


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    Sitting back and looking at, I’m just concerned it’s way too much heat up high, and I’m not sure I’m able to get the 36” primaries I’d need out of these for a torque monster motor. Soooo… If I set aside my dreams of long tubes and instead try to keep things simple, I end up with a much cleaners setup. Trial #2.

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    Last pass (thus far) was just changing the order of the tubes. I figure with an 18726543 firing order I should at least put cylinders 2 and 6 on opposite sides of the collector (same for 1-3 on the driver side). That leaves me here:

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    Best guess, but the time it’s done I’ll end up somewhere around 22-24 inches primaries. Your thoughts and commentary appreciated.
     
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  8. SuperBuickGuy

    SuperBuickGuy

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    I like that mid-mount but I'd worry that there's not enough wrap on the power steering pump to keep it from slipping.

    Why not hydroboost? gets you some extra room and they'll lock up 38s on dry pavement without too much pedal (1 1/8 bore master cylinder and Ford dual front/GM single rear disk brakes). If you want super-clever, 6.0 denalis have hydroboost - then no mixing and matching....

    I do love those header legos, someday when I'm rich or infamous I'll buy a set.
     
  9. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Good comment on the belt wrap. One more reason to stick with what I have.

    No hyrdoboost for me given the full hydraulic steering. I want to be able to brake and steer at the same time and I've never seen good results from folks who tried to daisy chain them (have seen plenty of misbehaviour). If I had more room I could run a second PS pump but the extra bracketry and custom ish doesn't seem worth it, particularly when I have the high area on the passenger side taken up with an AC compressor.

    Header Legos are fun but not enough end all be all. They only get you close because each brick is a 1" increment so there are plenty of places you have to cheat lengths or use a different radius to give less angle or a given turn.
     
  10. A10Driver

    A10Driver SILVER Star

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    Are you doing hydraulic steering? High output pump should handle brakes and regular power steering no problem
     
  11. frijolee

    frijolee

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    A track bar/drag link setup requires the front axle to shift side to side as the bars swing in an arc... Double triangulated front suspension can't do that. So unless I want to start over on the front suspension, I'm committed to full hydro steering.

    I do agree power steering plus hydroboost is fine (OEMs do it all the time). Full hydro plus hydroboost? If it's been done successfully I don't know about, but I've read plenty of horror stories from folks who tried and failed.
     
  12. GLTHFJ60

    GLTHFJ60 Rum Runnin' SILVER Star

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    I like that header mockup kit!
     
  13. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Picking up a few random topics. Hoping that maybe posting some stuff will light a fire under my ass.

    Actually welded my first exhaust bits.

    Cone Engineering Merge and spike.

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    Picked up the calipers I was missing from a junkyard a while back. Iron so they're stupid heavy.

    Blasted.

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    POR 15 Caliper Paint

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    Bought a cool fairlead from Custom Splice. It's narrow for my cut down winch. Double thick was intended to have a bigger radius. Upon getting it in I decided double thick was a little excessive so I cut it down.

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    Billet aluminum is a miracle of packaging I say.

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    I threw some epoxy primer on the roof, just to keep the raw glass happy until I can deal with this properly.

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    Bought and swapped in slightly shorter pushrods. I needed in between a 7.350 and 7.375 and ended up erring on the long side.

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    Late, so that'll have to do for now.
    -Joel
     
  14. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Feels good to be making progress again...

    Howe Custom Radiator

    One of the ways in which my rig is different is that the bib has been cut down, so the profile of the nose has less space above the frame rails. I was really trying to get as much radiator up in the nose as I could since while crawling air flow was likely to be dependent on fans anyways.

    Started with cardboard studies a long time back. Shock towers weren't even welded up yet so I know I have some old pics.

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    CAD. The inside of my frame rails measure 24.25” so I ended up including notches in the end tanks for both frame rails to let me run a 22.5” width core.

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    I originally did the CAD work because I had found a Ron Davis Radiator I really liked that was damn close to working off the shelf. P/N 1A-2619-05R

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    I was stoked that Ron was personally answering emails and questions so I figured out a way to make only a few subtle changes, angles on top and bottom plates, change from sloping sides to notches, and angle in the inlet and exit tubes. The stock radiator was $565 but my three subtle changes added $432 for a whooping $997 quote.
    I was stoked that Ron was personally answering emails and questions so I figured out a way to make only a few subtle changes, angles on top and bottom plates, change from sloping sides to notches, and angle in the inlet and exit tubes. The stock radiator was $565 but my three changes added $432 for a whooping $997 quote. We weren't speaking the same language if he thought my subtle mods added +80% to the price of the parts.

    Anyways, I declined and had Howe quote a full custom radiator exactly to what I wanted. Total cost $584. Much better. It’s a dual pass for efficiency and to put both inlet and outlet on the passenger side for easier packaging.

    I'm sure it's top shelf work... We just had a massive failure to communicate on what I wanted them to do. At the end of the day I went another way and had Howe quote a full custom radiator exactly to what I wanted. Total cost $584. Much better. It’s a dual pass for efficiency and to put both inlet and outlet on the passenger side for easier packaging.

    I theoretically got a bit smarter in spec’ing parts this time, as I had them add header/footer plates to give me a surface to mount the fan shroud to (and no more bolts pointing at radiator fins, a lesson I learned the hard way on the RX7). Of course I also said, I'd never do a custom radiator again if I could avoid it and run something off the shelf. Then I bought this FJ and realized what kind of surface area I'd need in the nose. At least I can replicate the order for another if needed.

    Happy box showed up about a month later.

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    Nicely packed.

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    Test fitting:

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    Hey look, those big ass holes in my hood are good for something.

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    Mounting provisions next...

    -Joel
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
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  15. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Remember that cut down bib I mentioned? Made some patch panels and cleaned it up. Turned out nice. Mig on the inside and tig on the outside, linished back to look like a factory bend. I really dig doing the subtle differences that only folks in the know will spot.

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    Threw both bib and hood back on the car for a last fit check on the radiator. It almost looks like a rig again.

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  16. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Radiator Mounting

    I said I wasn’t going to make this super crazy custom, it’s just a radiator. But once you’ve spec’ed and bought a custom radiator… well sometimes you can convince yourself it’s easier to extend mounting from the end tanks to a simpler interface on the chassis. Unless I can find a way to reweld it, I’m beyond a field repair anyways.

    I did go ahead and reinforce my connections to the end tanks by building in support plates to spread out the load. This should also means that if I ever trash this radiator I should be able to cut these out of the dead one and reuse them. Piece parts in work for the topside mounts. Angle cuts look cool AND give me more weld area. What’s not to love about that?

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    I am using similar isolators as found on my RX7. I did upsize these ones since I suspect there will be a great deal of bouncing around in this rig. 1.5” OD, 3/4" tall.

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    Anyways, I basically mocked the radiator in position as closely as I could. Then tacked everything together and sharpied my locations so I could haul it to Anthony to burn together.

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    F-me! My amigo done good! I mean, the gas tank skid we did for my XJ back when was nice, but these welds had me drooling.

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    Howe's welds look nice, but Anthony might have edged them.

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    Better look at the end tank notches.

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    Interesting side note: we were chatting about the fact that I can never get aluminum to form nearly as nice a puddle as Anthony had and he was using a tiny cup on his torch and hadn’t cleaned anything more than I did. I constantly have black specs showing in my aluminum welds and I’ve been up and down the my settings for both balance and frequency. Anthony suggested I might have bad shielding gas… Not bad enough to be noticeable in steel but not good enough for aluminum either. Apparently the test is to strike up on clean aluminum form puddle and back off. Don’t weld anything, but if your solidified puddle has junk in it, bad gas is the first suspect. Good test for a fresh tank of gas as you can swap it out before using it if needed.

    So as soon as I get the rubber bits, I should be ready to mount this for real. I guess I still need the chassis side interfaces as well but those should be easy by comparison.
     
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  17. GLTHFJ60

    GLTHFJ60 Rum Runnin' SILVER Star

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    ^^ Good tip on welding gas.
     
  18. Gotta be Geared

    Gotta be Geared Supporting Vendor

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    Awesome to see things moving again! Keep it going!

    Nice work as always!
     
  19. frijolee

    frijolee

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    Fan Shroud Frustrations…

    My fans are a pair of Spal 11” ultra high flow, knock you over, “you sure you really need this?” versions (or whatever other superlatives they’re using to describe their performance products these days). Part no. 30102800. https://webstore.spalusa.com/content/files/content/PDF/30102800_SPEC.pdf

    The cladding bodies measure right around 12” which leaves me hanging off the overlaps of the end tanks a bit.

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    I’d forgotten that the Ron Davis version I’d eyeballed used a shroud just like this until I spied that pic digging for info for the last post, but it’s nice that there’s precedence. FWIW, I’m also planning dedicated fan/trans cooler for the TH400. Power steering will get a finned cooler under the winch as well. Like I said, I’m putting just about as much cooling on this thing as I can.

    Testing vertical placement in place.

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    Started a layout in 0.090” aluminum. Probably could get away 0.060” but the header and foot plates were 0.090” and this should see some heavy bouncing around.

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    What’s all that decorative sharpie going on there? My plan was to bead roll the hell out of this thing since it’s in a somewhat visible location and why not? I even figured out how to use washers to trace profiles and end up with a shape that would just be super rad. Then I tried out my bead roller…

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    Wow. Bead rolling is hard. If you want to put a step into something, the dies are too close together for 0.090”. I mean, I know I was a little higher than the recommended capacity but I figured I’d just go over it a few times. Also, you can get a get a kit for Mittler Bros for adjustable die offsets so I made my own shim before I even tried rolling.

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    Problem is, for a step, I didn’t have enough clamping to do this in one pass. If you’re at a partial depth, the plate wants to engage at an angle. Now you can’t go around corners and what not because it crashes into the jaws.

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    So I did the math. For a rectangle, bending stiffness = 1/12*B*H^3. B = base or length of bend (which is constant in this case). H = thickness. That ^3 power term means that jumping from 0.060” material to 0.090” material is about 3.4x harder to bend. Huh, no wonder I’m having difficulties…

    I tried rolling a classic bead since in this case I’d be able to take multiple passes and it doesn’t engage at an angle. It kinda worked but not really.

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    You need to be able to “take in” material and force it to stretch locally vs. the surroundings, not just bend it. If you take too many passes it just ends up functioning like a really crappy press brake and putting v’s into the metal. Oh and you scar up the metal something serious to boot.


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    Backside: Standard bead at right, ugly step roll on the left.

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    I gave up. It was late and I was due up at Anthony’s first thing in the AM. Basically decided to finish this as a simple/heavy duty shroud. If I want to make a fancy one, I’ll need to start from material with a proper thickness and remake the shroud. Since it’s a bolt in, that might not be the end of the world.

    That said, I do have about 4” of covered radiator at the top of this shroud since the fans must sit kinda low to clear my cross bar. I’m debating making my own little rubber flipper valves to help evacuate air at speed. The downside is that my intake filters will to live right behind this area. It’ll be a dual filter in a sharp Y coming off the throttle body and living just under the hood skin inboard of each shock tower. What would you do, let the filters see somewhat warmer air (fans will be blasting away underneath them either way)? Rubber flip valve in the areas between the filters? Leave it alone? Bead roll new shrouds, repeatedly until I make my bitching plan a reality?

    I think I'm approaching the point I don't care and I'll just finish what I have but I'm always curious on your opinions.

    -Joel
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
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  20. boots4

    boots4

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    Relief flaps on a shroud work great when going down the highway where there is enough air flow to push them open. Maybe it's me but it doesn't seem like the intended purpose of this awesome rig, to spend time on the highway. Not sure I'd worry about getting flaps installed.

    If you didn't have that crossmember up high behind the radiator I'd suggest staggering the fans since it looks like your radiator is a dual pass deal. But, custom regularly has to deal with compromises so where it fits overrides.

    Perhaps some hood venting to help with air filter airflow. At lower speeds it should be fine with vents towards the front of the hood where you plan to put the air filters but at higher speeds the front ends up with negative pressure which would pull the hot radiator air out the vents pulling hot air through the air filters. What kind of speeds do you plan on running your rig at?
     
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