High steer question

[PhilC64]

I have a couple of questions regarding the high steer set up for my 40.

I picked up a front axle from an 84 FJ60 and have stripped it down. The front knuckles and birf's are in great shape. I've had the knuckles hot tanked and cleaned and there are no issues there.

I have an opportunity to pick up a high steer set-up from an 85 minitruck. I've read through a few posts and manufacturers sites and it appears that the knuckles from the 60 and the mini are the same. What say the Mud guru's? Would I be able to use the minitruck setup on my 60 series knuckles?

I know the tie rod and steering arm lengths are different. Does anyone have the lengths of these available? I have access to DOM wall tubing so I'm thinking of doing these myself.

Lastly, I have a Saginaw conversion to go with this high steer setup. Would anyone know what pitman arm I would need to tie this all together?

 

[xjnation]

I have an opportunity to pick up a high steer set-up from an 85 minitruck. I've read through a few posts and manufacturers sites and it appears that the knuckles from the 60 and the mini are the same. What say the Mud guru's? Would I be able to use the minitruck setup on my 60 series knuckles?

Yes, the arms will bolt to the 60 knuckles. The steering geometry (ackerman) will not be correct for the truck but usually it's not an issue. What brand of hi-steer?

 

[orangefj45]

the arms will work for sure. the tie-rod and drag link will not be the proper length.

so if i were you, i'd figure out how much it's gonna cost you for the used kit along with the proper tie rod and drag link. then compare that cost to a new kit. might be worth it to just buy a new kit. i'd opt for the fj80 series TREs since they're larger and will hold up a lot better. tou can ream the pitman arm out to work with the 80 ends. if nobody local can ream it for you, then send it to me. i do tham all the time. i can get you a little better deal on a new high steer kit also. just some food for thought......

 

[PhilC64]

Thanks for all the info guys! Check your PM's George!

 

[Gumby]

I like to set them up for Chevy 1-ton TREs. The weld in bungs are easy to find and if you ever broke a TRE you can find them easily.

 

[camcruiser13]

if your shopping look into 4x4 labs, best on the market imho

 

[orangefj45]

yup, luke and marlin are top notch. allpro has a great kit as well.

 

[vtcruiser60]

Yes, the arms will bolt to the 60 knuckles. The steering geometry (ackerman) will not be correct for the truck but usually it's not an issue. What brand of hi-steer?

So maybe we could discuss this a bit further. Georg...help if you can.

I don't see how high-steer is possible on a sprung under axle rig. (The post above does not indicate SUA or SOA). Most of the vendor kits out there specify SOA, but it is often the case that installations are made on SUA rigs.

I have spoken with Luke several times at 4x4 labs, and read extensively on the board about installing high steer on my truck. I run a 74 FJ40 with a disc brakes (60 series), 2.5 inch OME lift, and other odds and ends. It is my understanding that the 4x4 labs kit will not work on my truck, the lift is not sufficient and it is really not well designed for SUA rigs. Ideally the minimum lift is 3.5 inches with a SUA truck, SOA preferred. I know I could invest in a shackle reversal on the front end, and longer shackles....but that seems to be a rather convoluted way to go high steer, to "improve ackerman", and beef up the tie rod/ drag link tubes.

High steer also presupposes an investment in power steering. It is often unspoken, but high steer is really not conducive to trucks with stock steering. I don't see how you can go high steer with FJ80 TRE, for example, without changing your steering system from stock to power steering (scout, 60 series, or saginaw). Am I right here?

More importantly what is the impulse to go high steer on SUA trucks, why make the investment when you lose steering geometry, and potentially create conflicts with your leaf springs? Why not just sleeve your stock tie rod and drag link with DOM, a bunch of rosette welds and call it a day?

 

[orangefj45]

hey kieran.
you bring up some good points. i'll add to your response.

So maybe we could discuss this a bit further. Georg...help if you can.

I don't see how high-steer is possible on a sprung under axle rig. (The post above does not indicate SUA or SOA). Most of the vendor kits out there specify SOA, but it is often the case that installations are made on SUA rigs.

i think that we're tlking about soa setups here. if not, then you'd better have a lot of lift to clear the tie-rod and drag link without hitting the frame.

I have spoken with Luke several times at 4x4 labs, and read extensively on the board about installing high steer on my truck. I run a 74 FJ40 with a disc brakes (60 series), 2.5 inch OME lift, and other odds and ends. It is my understanding that the 4x4 labs kit will not work on my truck, the lift is not sufficient and it is really not well designed for SUA rigs. Ideally the minimum lift is 3.5 inches with a SUA truck, SOA preferred. I know I could invest in a shackle reversal on the front end, and longer shackles....but that seems to be a rather convoluted way to go high steer, to "improve ackerman", and beef up the tie rod/ drag link tubes.

i think the biggest reason why luke's kit won't work with an sua rig is the fact that the tie-rod ends up behind the axle. that space would be occupied by the engine oil pan. so 4x4labs hs kit and sua is pretty much a no-go. even with an soa setup you can encounter oil pan clearance issues with luke's kit.

High steer also presupposes an investment in power steering. It is often unspoken, but high steer is really not conducive to trucks with stock steering. I don't see how you can go high steer with FJ80 TRE, for example, without changing your steering system from stock to power steering (scout, 60 series, or saginaw). Am I right here?

this goes back to the two best things you can do to any cruiser; power steering and disc brakes. i think it's foolish to go soa without ps. i'm not going to elaborate on this right now. do a search if you won't take my word for it.

More importantly what is the impulse to go high steer on SUA trucks, why make the investment when you lose steering geometry, and potentially create conflicts with your leaf springs? Why not just sleeve your stock tie rod and drag link with DOM, a bunch of rosette welds and call it a day?

very good point here. i don't see a need for hs with sua. but rather than sleeving your oem tie-rod, you can have sturdier tie-rods and drag links made by some of the vendors in our industy. marlin crawler is one of them. that's the route i would take if i wanted to beef up my links.

hope that helps. i'd be happy to elaborate further......

 

[orangefj45]

ps: please do not get me wrong. i know i pointed out a lot of possible issues with the 4x4labs hs kit in the above post. i have known luke for many years, i respect him and his work tremenduously. i also know that he put a ton of work into the hs kit and it's a great design. heck, i have one of his new 6-bolt kits for my "project isabel"...............to simplify it: luke makes a great kit!

 

[vtcruiser60]

I don't think this kind of information is intuitive or actually well presented on the board. Perhaps this thread will make it into Steve's FAQ.

I actually don't know of any mildly lifted SUA trucks with high steer. It seems like the minimum would be 4 inches of lift and yet the high steer would still place the linkages in front of the axle. Even with the lift, high steer seems a bit odd relative to just beefing up your TREs and linkages. Again this presupposes that you have power steering and disc brakes.

Why....40 series steering arms don't have enough material to ream out and accept beefier TRE. Stronger linkages (drag links and tie rods) are usually tied to the knuckles via 60 series or mini-truck steering arms.....arms that can be adapted to accept larger than stock TRE.

Can I get an amen.

 

[PhilC64]

Amen!

I've should have made a distinction that I was SOA. I've been taught that HS should only be used on SOA thanks to a few Mud Guru's I wheel with. (Thanks Gumby for your input!)

I've looked at Luke's HS setup and seen it under abuse by none other than Woody. In his words his rig is "point and shoot". That is attributed to many things but if the steering geometry is not set up correctly his rig wouldn't be that way.

Georg pointed out the limits of the 4x4Labs HS setup with SUA. Knowing the other high steer set ups out there, Marlin, Trail Gear, All Pro, etc., would these other designs possibly work for SUA since they locate the Tie Rod and Steering Arm in front of the axle but above the springs? Would something like this work for folks with a ridiculous SUA lift of more than 4 inches? (lift springs + longer shackles)

 

[motoloco]

I could see why HS would still be benificial on an 4" SUA rig, If nothing else, it would eliminate bumpsteer making it a more prdictable driver.

 

[Otterav]

Hello,
I am SUA, I used a set of Datin Fab investment cast hysteer arms, I could not get enough clearance for the steering arms and the frame interface. I turned bungs and reamed them, then welded them to get the tierod/relays on the bottom of the steering arms. Datin set me up with tie rod and relayrods as well as 80 series rod ends mucho cheap. The moral of the story is unless you are SOA, or willing to do a lot of extra work hysteer is not the way to go, the geometry just will not allow the non SOA peeps to use them.
Hola
eric
P.S. I had bump steer that was like drunk driver gyrations when hitting the brakes or bumps, now almost none!

 

[Poser]

I actually don't know of any mildly lifted SUA trucks with high steer.

Here is one...




Orange 40:

4+ shackle reversal and 2.5" OME springs.


4x4 Labs steering components Saginaw power steering and ram assist from AGR.

Full size pictures of these can be found HERE and HERE



More ram assist steering pictures can be seen HERE


Some initial install pictures of the 4x4 Labs steering components can be seen HERE






Here is another....



Yellow 40:




4+ shackle reversal and 2.5" OME springs.


4x4 Labs steering components and Saginaw power steering.

Full size pictures of these can be found HERE





Both trucks have 38.5" Swamper SX tires and will roll down the road at 70mph with one hand on the steering wheel...Anyone could operate these vehicles both on and off road and be in control and safe while doing so.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

There is no reason to go hy-steer if you are spring under. That's pointless and just brings up more problems than it solves. The bumpsteer argument is a good one, but it might be easier to fix with a dropped pittman.

On FJ40s, with the tie-rod in the rear, the tie rod isn't anywhere near the stock oil pan. It would never hit it no matter how much the springs compressed and that's even with the axle shifted forward.

In FJ60s, you can get the rear tie-rod, but because the positioning of the rear axle relative to the motor, it will hit the oil pan. Luke also makes a conventional kit that keeps all of the steering in front of the axle. As an aside-you can use the rear tie-rod Fromby steering if your FJ60 has a V-8 conversion.

I'm with Gumby and like the GM 1 ton set up. The ends themselves look a little stronger, they have grease zerks, they tolerate more angulation and they can be bought in every Napa store in the USA. If you are making the conversion, there is almost no reason not to use them.

The 4x4Labs kit including the arms, rods and ends was about 5.5 bones. He will also supply the correct Pittman (new) with the correct taper for roughly another $75 but have him quote that too you. Luke is a very good guy to work with and if you need custom stuff, he is the guy. Disclaimer-I have no business relationship with 4x4Labs, but I have their hy-steer on 2 of my trucks, and it is the Mac Daddy of the Hy-steer world.

 

[Poser]

There is no reason to go hy-steer if you are spring under.

With the 4x4 Labs system, you get the tie rod behind the axle instead of being on point, and the drag link from the steering gear three-plus inches higher than the stock location, as well as the other upgrades that you were allegedly a proponent of; Stronger tie rod ends and tie rods. I have seen stock tie rods snap off on the trail with smaller tires. Modifying stock steering arms for the one-ton ends seems to remove enough material from the end of the arm that I am not comfortable doing that.

I'm with Gumby and like the GM 1 ton set up. The ends themselves look a little stronger, they have grease zerks, they tolerate more angulation and they can be bought in every Napa store in the USA

A little stronger? They are twice the physical size compared to stock 40 series steering components? Didn't you say you own two of the 4x4 Labs steering systems?

That's pointless and just brings up more problems than it solves.

I guess I would really be interested in having you list out the other issues that installing these steering systems has apparently created.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

With the 4x4 Labs system, you get the tie rod behind the axle instead of being on point, and the drag link from the steering gear three-plus inches higher than the stock location, as well as the other upgrades that you were allegedly a proponent of; Stronger tie rod ends and tie rods. I have seen stock tie rods snap off on the trail with smaller tires. Modifying stock steering arms for the one-ton ends seems to remove enough material from the end of the arm that I am not comfortable doing that.








A little stronger? They are twice the physical size compared to stock 40 series steering components? Didn't you say you own two of the 4x4 Labs steering systems?









I guess I would really be interested in having you list out the other issues that installing these steering systems has apparently created.

It's cool Poser. It's just that the stock linkage does a good job and it's free, it's hard to see it worth doing high steer when spring under. It is protected by the springs already. I'd be mostly worried about the closeness of the tie rod to the frame on compression. I too have personally bent a tie rod or two, but I did a lot of wheeling on a sleeved stock set up and only really mangled it once.

When I say larger, I am saying the GM 1 tons look larger than the 80 ends that can also be used in the same application. Both of them are huge compared to stock.

One thing I have always wondered about is if the tie rod behind the axle puts extra stress on the right side knuckle. I've never had any trouble, but I have thought about it.

 

[vtcruiser60]

I guess I would really be interested in having you list out the other issues that installing these steering systems has apparently created.

Well....I'll say price for one Steve. Let's say you are SUA with power steering and mini-truck/60 series disc brakes. You have a solid steering setup, have eliminated loads of linkages from the stock set up and currently drive straight down the road with great steering response. But, you fear tagging the snot out of your drag link on a rock, a stump or a fat woman doing downward facing dog (Yoga move). Your goal is to beef up your set up. I see three cheaper options before going to high steer.

A. sleeve your existing linkages with DOM tubing, no change to your stock TRE. (EST. $100 for tubing and someone to weld it for you...)
B. Purchase new .25 wall DOM tie rods and drag links from budbuilt, marlin crawler or Georg Esterer, fitted for 60 series TRE. (EST $175)
C. Purchase new .25 wall DOM tie rods and drag links from one of the vendors, fitted for 80 series TRE; This requires reaming the steering arms to accept 80 series TRE ($200)

or

D. Go hog wild. Drool over a high steer set up and purchase, vendor prices range from $300-$550. While upgrading, you decide to move from somewhat pricier 80 series TRE to GM 1 ton. Main advantage of high steer as I see it is the movement of your now, super beefy draglink behind the axle. There is improved ackerman geometry (apparently) with the 4x4 labs set up, but how much this matters in reality, I can't say. HOWEVER, there is a hidden cost with D. You need a shackle reversal kit (e.g. proffits $150) and at a minimum a 2.5 inch lift.

I really like the pretty high steer kit from 4x4 labs, but pricing for option D just seems exorbitant for what is provided.

 

[65swb45]

I could see why HS would still be benificial on an 4" SUA rig, If nothing else, it would eliminate bumpsteer making it a more prdictable driver.

That was my motivation.

pics here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=678326&highlight=steering

I also see merit in Cruiserdrew's point on the tie rod behind the axle puting extra stress on the right side knuckle. From all the torn up knuckles I've seen on the trails, it seems the 37+ inch tires and double-ended passenger knuckle arm combo turns that arm into something more akin to the handle on a can opener!