Help me understand the appeal. (1 Viewer)

[Chocolate]

Thanks y'all.

Its not that I'm exactly having a disaster of a time, but Im asking myself why I'm pre planning thousands of $ in preventative maintenance on the worlds most reliable truck. As far as forum confirmation bias, i totally get it.

But lets face it, my radiator WILL blow. It already was hairline cracked at like 55k. @bloc has seen it himself. Lexus refuses to acknowledge the problem until it fails.
My starter WILL go out, and since im now friends with the master tech at Lexus Austin, and get to speak to him "off record" he can confirm for me by 120k, that it will absolutely happen. He drives a DuraMax... and has owned multiple Tundras in the past.

My engine will definitely develop coolant leaks as well.
Theres a chance it wont happen, but to be honest, its the absence of the peace of mind i thought i had that is bothering me now.
Its not just the cost either, its the amount of time spent caring for it that I wont get back.

And yes @tbisaacs im a special kind of obsessive lol.

I think maybe my mistake wasn't really the choice of Truck, but buying a relatively newer model.
I can see where getting a huge discount on a 5-10 year old T truck and using it hard for another 5-10 makes sense.

But right now im trying to think through dropping $10k + on a supercharger and RTT system, and my heart is just not in it anymore.
I have to feel like i can really get another 10 years out of this, "trouble free".
My bar isnt exactly lease level of trouble free, or even like the old "only done oil changes" adage that is repeated ad-nauseam.
But I kind of expected more than this.

For example my driver side mirror is wobbly as hell inside the housing, and the passenger is tight, but Lexus does not give two s***s about it.
It shakes with music to a blur, and the other does not. It will eventually fail, and it will cost at least $800.

My overarching point is that if i keep this for 15 years, with a full decade being paid off, the amount of "reliability tax" in fuel spent would buy me a new car mid way through. Im not in a financial bind, but if the new normal gas prices remain, this will only make less sense overtime.

Keep the comments coming, it does help to hear from familiar faces.

Another starter thread

Well i guess i can report after ruling out other possibilities starter is dead and my mechanic confirmed it... 2010 LX 128K. Since we all know this is a common failure on the 200 series between 120-150k I was just thinking why would i go for OEM starter if it only lasted 128k. Would it be a...

forum.ih8mud.com

@cruiseroutfit Have you heard any 16+ starter motor failures? Haven't seen any yet. Does anyone know when the part was changed?

Both the design and the location of the original starter motor are flawed, resulting in an expensive replacement which appears to be common over 120K+. But I haven't heard of any 16+ with this issue yet.

 

[AnyMal]

Another starter thread

Well i guess i can report after ruling out other possibilities starter is dead and my mechanic confirmed it... 2010 LX 128K. Since we all know this is a common failure on the 200 series between 120-150k I was just thinking why would i go for OEM starter if it only lasted 128k. Would it be a...

forum.ih8mud.com

@cruiseroutfit Have you heard any 16+ starter motor failures? Haven't seen any yet. Does anyone know when the part was changed?

Both the design and the location of the original starter motor are flawed, resulting in an expensive replacement which appears to be common over 120K+. But I haven't heard of any 16+ with this issue yet.

Hmmmm.
Yeah not sure if anyones hit 120k yet. Radiator wasnt fixed until 2018 though. 10 whole years.

 

[Specialeyes]

I read most of this last night before bed and actually appreciated where you are coming from @AnyMal . While not exactly apples to apples I have had some gripes with my 4R over the last 2 years and 33k miles... going into it all I read and heard about was how bullet proof and rock solid they are. Best all around SUV ever by some accounts. While I have enjoyed it my ownership experience has not been all sunshine and roses. I am a very particular person, possibly even an unhealthy amount of OCD lol. I have had my 4R in the shop on 4 different occasions chasing down various rattles in/around the dash and door panels, along with having a blown JBL amp replaced, and most recently trying to diagnose a creaking sound from the left front which the dealer says is my RCI skid plates rubbing... (I am not convinced) I have decided to chalk this up to the 4R being what it is, which is a solid, albeit unrefined vehicle. It's noisy and not very comfortable for logging long hours during the day like I do at times for work.

As for the 200 my only experience with them has been thru test drives along with collecting bits of info from everyone here on MUD and the rest of the world wide web. They are 100% an upgrade from the 4R in terms of refinement, power train, and capability. A GX460 measures up in these categories but it has some "quirks and features" I keep hanging myself up on . I noticed a couple of replies on here saying that there just is not anything else like a 200 and that is where I land as well. In terms of a "large" mid size or "small" full size SUV that is BOF, rugged and off road capable, and can also handle the DD role and everything else in between you really only have the LC or a G Wagon to choose from. I suppose you could throw the latest Defender in there but it's unibody now and I'm too scared to take my chances on a LR product.

What appeals to me about the 200 having not owned one but shopping for one is that it can do pretty much anything and do it well. They are a good size (slightly big if anything, but not so big that it becomes a PITA) ~~ This reason alone is why I struggle with the idea of going back to a half ton truck... they are just too damn big nowadays. I live in the city and want to be able to park inside my garage and maneuver around town easily. It's comfortable and quiet inside the cabin. They are comfortable and capable off the pavement as well. I don't tow often (last time I towed something was like 10 years ago actually lol) but it's nice to know I have that capability as well should I ever need to again. The fact that you can get one in a 2 row (or remove the 3rd row) also appeals to me. I don't really want or need seating for 7. Really my only knocks on the 200 are no apple carplay and the gas mileage. It's pretty lame that Toyota didn't bother adding a feature that has been around since 2017 in most every vehicle to their flagship model. Gas mileage is what it is... big V8 on a big truck with full time 4WD is going to be thirsty. They really should have put a larger tank in from the factory. I can afford the gas no problem but there is a part of me that feels kind of "wasteful" or maybe "gluttonous" is the better word to use when driving around in something that gets 15 or less MPG. That being said I am in a similar state of mind as you where I have been driving for 20 years now and have owned 17 different cars/trucks. In my mind I want a 200 for everything it can do, along with how reliable it supposedly is, and my goal is to keep it for 10 years at least... maybe more. Idk... I have mixed feelings about the latest and greatest in automotive trends and I am also trying to stop trading out of vehicles every 2-3 years and figure a 200 may be the best tool for the job. If/when I get one I find myself having the same problems early on like you I may bail and go who knows where... I'm not a mechanic and don't really enjoy wrenching on things but again if the legendary 200 lives up to it's name I think I'll be fine.

 

[rtong1234]

Thank you for sharing your thinking and concerns about our beloved Land Cruisers. There are intangibles to the LC that no other vehicle can produce for me. There's something about the car's heritage and position in the car world that I just love.

Having said that, I am a very practical person (sounds like you are too based on your analysis) and can completely relate to the valuation struggle you've so eloquently articulated.

When it's all said and done, as others have said, no car is invincible and nothing in this world will last forever. With the above in mind, I did 2 things to guard against these concerns and risks. 1) I chose to buy a 1st gen 200 so I don't feel that I am buying something that's beyond surprises and disappointments; and 2) in the same year I bought the LC, I bought a 10 year old 5 speed Corolla S as my daily which takes all of the weekly beating, exposure to crazy drivers that could total my car at any moment, and satisfaction of 30 miles/gallon, in order to minimize the risk of devaluing my Land Cruiser experience.

I love working on the LC, investing in it, and taking it out on recreational adventures when its capabilities matter most - and yes, it's still a head turner vs the more common full sized SUVs when she's on the road. It makes enthusiasts happy to see it and I get to be a part of that..... Just my personal POV.

 

[AnyMal]

@Specialeyes @rtong1234 thanks and well said to both of yall!

I was actually having fun wrenching, until all of a sudden I wasnt...

The last thing i want to feel like is that im settling, so perhaps with the right care and wisdom (as ive thankfully recieved from some forum elders here) (and some deserved licks) im looking at her a bit more as my wife and not the girlfriend.

You are def going to get out what you put in with maintenance and receive the benefits long term. There are just bits of rough patches some of us go through (NPI) like @tbisaacs right now. I do definitely need an exciting side piece though .

Hoping not to be surprised by stuff down the line but TBH ive learned so much in such a short time, and that i can only contribute to being invested in a way i dont think any other pedigree badge would have captured and led me to.

Im The Rook afterall, but im a lot smarter than i look, and probably sound! Lol

 

[AnyMal]

Keep the comments coming though, im just in front of the tv waiting for this chinese balloon bane moment to happen.

 

[tbisaacs]

@Specialeyes @rtong1234 thanks and well said to both of yall!

I was actually having fun wrenching, until all of a sudden I wasnt...

The last thing i want to feel like is that im settling, so perhaps with the right care and wisdom (as ive thankfully recieved from some forum elders here) (and some deserved licks) im looking at her a bit more as my wife and not the girlfriend.

You are def going to get out what you put in with maintenance and receive the benefits long term. There are just bits of rough patches some of us go through (NPI) like @tbisaacs right now. I do definitely need an exciting side piece .

Hoping not to be surprised by stuff down the line but TBH ive learned so much in such a short time, and that i can only contribute to being invested in a way i dont think any other pedigree badge would have captured and led me to.

Im The Rook afterall, but im a lot smarter than i look, and probably sound! Lol

 

[LX Cruiser]

To be honest, I was a bit surprised reading about some of the issues common to the 200 series. I didn’t really dive into the forum until after buying mine.

I decided on this vehicle because I love my Tundra, and I was completely done with the issues I constantly battled in my GM vehicles. I thought the 200 would be like an even more bulletproof Tundra or Sequoia. The issue that you read about on the Tundra forum is the cam tower leak. And that’s really about it as far as common issues are concerned. Overwhelmingly, it’s not even seeping enough to need to add oil bewteen changes. And many people report that it goes away after switching to 5w30 oil.

I don’t see radiator design flaws, heater Ts failing, or coolant valley leaks nearly as much on Tundras, and people take them to extremely high miles, too.

I do think the 200 series is still very much worth it. Nothing else checks as many boxes, and compared to the rest of the $$$ SUV segment, it is really not that bad in terms of staying ahead of issues. But it still surprised me to read about what people regularly deal with.

 

[larsensa]

I started looking at LCs in December of 2022 and finally test drove my first one in January of this year. It was a 2013 with 184k miles on it that was going for $29.5k. It was incredibly clean and I had test driven it 5 times for extended period, even having a mechanic check it out. I didn't pull the trigger due to having a hard time paying $29.5k for a truck with 184k miles on it. The risk seemed so high for that amount of money, even though I know it was fairly great price, especially based on the current market prices I am seeing.
WHile I was milling the decision, this OP showed up, and contributed to the pause. I also had a friend that had owned a 100 series and a LX470, both with high miles, share this stat: "Only 1% of vehicles make it past the 200,000 mile mark. Just . 03% of cars roll over the 300,000 mile mark".

This cause me to do some additional searching on my own around LCs specifically where I was surprised to find this because of hearing about how amazingly reliable LCs are:

• iSee Cars reports that 1.5% of Land Cruiser models surpassed not only 200,000-miles but 300,000-miles. Feb 14, 2021
  
  
• 1: Toyota Land Cruiser
  The Toyota Land Cruiser. With an impressive 18.2% surpassing 200,000 miles, Toyota's legendary off-road luxury machine is more likely to pass the mileage landmark than any other vehicle. Mar 8, 2022

Land Cruisers show up #1 on all reliability lists, but I was surprised to read that less than 1 in 5 surpass 200k miles.
The process and data and comments in this post and others have left me unsure of what to do as I really did love the 2013 I test drove and have some regrets about not just jumping in and seeing how it went. I keep searching now but haven't come across any 2013s with lower miles in the $29k price range at the moment.

 

[lx200inAR]

I started looking at LCs in December of 2022 and finally test drove my first one in January of this year. It was a 2013 with 184k miles on it that was going for $29.5k. It was incredibly clean and I had test driven it 5 times for extended period, even having a mechanic check it out. I didn't pull the trigger due to having a hard time paying $29.5k for a truck with 184k miles on it. The risk seemed so high for that amount of money, even though I know it was fairly great price, especially based on the current market prices I am seeing.
WHile I was milling the decision, this OP showed up, and contributed to the pause. I also had a friend that had owned a 100 series and a LX470, both with high miles, share this stat: "Only 1% of vehicles make it past the 200,000 mile mark. Just . 03% of cars roll over the 300,000 mile mark".

This cause me to do some additional searching on my own around LCs specifically where I was surprised to find this because of hearing about how amazingly reliable LCs are:

• iSee Cars reports that 1.5% of Land Cruiser models surpassed not only 200,000-miles but 300,000-miles. Feb 14, 2021
  
  
• 1: Toyota Land Cruiser
  The Toyota Land Cruiser. With an impressive 18.2% surpassing 200,000 miles, Toyota's legendary off-road luxury machine is more likely to pass the mileage landmark than any other vehicle. Mar 8, 2022

Land Cruisers show up #1 on all reliability lists, but I was surprised to read that less than 1 in 5 surpass 200k miles.
The process and data and comments in this post and others have left me unsure of what to do as I really did love the 2013 I test drove and have some regrets about not just jumping in and seeing how it went. I keep searching now but haven't come across any 2013s with lower miles in the $29k price range at the moment.

Considering that I seriously doubt there is a ton a validity to the numbers from iSee Cars. Let me skew the way you are looking at it...

Lets hypothesize the actual % of cars that makes it to 200k miles reported here are fairly meaningless, but relationally they have some value. If the average car has some odds of making it to 200k. I'd argue that a well-maintained vehicle probably has a better than 1% chance. An LC has an 18 times greater chance of making to 200k than the standard car. So, if you thought the real-world chance was just 4-5% for your average car, then if you extrapolate that to an LC, you are looking at 70-90% likelihood of making it to 200k miles.

Probably more importantly though in all this, there are tons of other reasons an LC has a better chance of making it to 200k miles than a civic that have nothing to do with reliability.

 

[D21FJ60]

A lot of answers, so this may have been covered.
While I pine for a 200, I have a 100 but my sentiment is the same- going into my 100 purchase I knew that getting it for $3k (precovid) and 295k meant there would be things I had to address. I understood this and was ale to do some of hte work myself. If I had the money and was in a position to do so, would I get a newer, lower mileage vehicle? Absolutely. However, i'd spend the hours doing the research ahead of time so I don't get sticker shock (not to insinuate you haven't done this)

This may get me flamed, but I find at times the 'mud hive tends to over hype some things in the sense a lot of people spend thousands on parts to baseline or do PM to their vehicle. Call it risky, but i'm more of the take a look and it if looks OK then don't sweat it for now, just file it away in the back of your mind. If I had taken the mud approach of replacing everything before driving, then I still wouldn't have driven my 100 three years later.

Radiator getting a crack but you're a month away from being able to swing a new one? Slather it with a whole tube of the right kind of JB weld. I did when my 100 OG radiator was browning and had a slick crack forming under the rad cap port (hole? location?) and it got me through until I could get the new one installed. Windshield leaking? Hit up insurance if you have that type of coverage, but do your reasearch and get it taken to a shop that is familiar with the LX platforms. Copy and paste for the other issues.

But time is money, so honestly if you are afraid of investing your time for fear of the time being lost in a wreck, perhaps look at getting a newer one and plan on trading every few years?

FWIW I think Rover products look amazing, but the only one I could come close to affording is an older LR4 or an L322, but it seems like those platforms are either 200k no problems, or 100k and its the worst car ever...

 

[larsensa]

Considering that I seriously doubt there is a ton a validity to the numbers from iSee Cars. Let me skew the way you are looking at it...

Lets hypothesize the actual % of cars that makes it to 200k miles reported here are fairly meaningless, but relationally they have some value. If the average car has some odds of making it to 200k. I'd argue that a well-maintained vehicle probably has a better than 1% chance. An LC has an 18 times greater chance of making to 200k than the standard car. So, if you thought the real-world chance was just 4-5% for your average car, then if you extrapolate that to an LC, you are looking at 70-90% likelihood of making it to 200k miles.

Probably more importantly though in all this, there are tons of other reasons an LC has a better chance of making it to 200k miles than a civic that have nothing to do with reliability.

I have mainly been trying to find data to know if I should take the leap for an LC/LX or buy something with way less mileage that may not be nearly as awesome of a truck as an LC/LX but in the same price range as some of the 10 year old LCs with higher mileage that are more in my $30k budget range. Not all of the numbers I shared came from iseecars but if you have a source that provides more valid data please share it. I have been racking my brain since letting that 2013 slip away, but at the same time knowing I did it because of the sense of risk I was having about it all.

 

[lx200inAR]

I have mainly been trying to find data to know if I should take the leap for an LC/LX or buy something with way less mileage that may not be nearly as awesome of a truck as an LC/LX but in the same price range as some of the 10 year old LCs with higher mileage that are more in my $30k budget range. Not all of the numbers I shared came from iseecars but if you have a source that provides more valid data please share it. I have been racking my brain since letting that 2013 slip away, but at the same time knowing I did it because of the sense of risk I was having about it all.

I don't have/need other numbers. I don't think it matters. For single owners, every vehicle is on an island. Just because 9 out of 10 go 1 million miles, if the one you bought stops at 100k, then what does it matter what the other 9 did. Those things would only matter to entities that are buying 50 or 100 or 1000 vehicles. They might care what happens on average.

I was just trying to give you a different angle to look at. Because I agree with you, if you are shopping for a vehicle with 180k miles on the clock and you think only 1 out of 5 of those vehicles are going to make it to 200k miles, and only 1 in 66 is going to make 300k, then it would be ludicrous to buy said vehicle for 25-35k. Obviously, the market does not agree with the 1 in 5 or 1 in 66 math, otherwise the cost of these vehicles would be much lower.

 

[Madtiger]

It’s just a car. Buy it for the relative reliability/durability and cool heritage.

 

[NE Snowman]

I have mainly been trying to find data to know if I should take the leap for an LC/LX or buy something with way less mileage that may not be nearly as awesome of a truck as an LC/LX but in the same price range as some of the 10 year old LCs with higher mileage that are more in my $30k budget range. Not all of the numbers I shared came from iseecars but if you have a source that provides more valid data please share it. I have been racking my brain since letting that 2013 slip away, but at the same time knowing I did it because of the sense of risk I was having about it all.

Most people think 100k miles is high and replace their cars, it’s going to be hard to get datapoints of 200k.

Also really any vehicle can go 200k if you do proper maintenance, oil changes, address the small problems early. Here’s some 200k vehicles that I’ve owned or been in many times


270k 1996 Chevy Astro van
240k 2001 Ford E-150
256k 2005 GMC Savana (work van, company had a fleet many over 200k)
270k 200X Chevy Silverado (work truck)
233k 2005 4R 2uz(my daily now)
190k 2008 4R 2uz(wife daily)
170k 2005 Chevy Equinox (Parents)
300k+ 199X Mazda?beater farm truck(loud af and beat to s***)
240k 2006 4R 2uz(Friend)
150k 201X Tundra 3UR(Uncle, he has SAIP warranty work that’s it)

Don’t let miles scare you, let history tell you how a car has been treated. Look for leaks, I actually like when the car isn’t freshly washed so I can see any leaks or weeps underneath. You can tell if it’s just been recently detailed or if it was always kept clean, look underneath seats or other hard to see and clean areas and just see if there’s dirt build up or not.

So many moving parts on a vehicle stuff breaks, I prefer traveling in yodas…haven’t bought anything since my first and next will again be a Toyota, most likely a 100 but if the price is right I’d scoop up a 200. I just don’t need a 200.

 

[larsensa]

A lot of answers, so this may have been covered.
While I pine for a 200, I have a 100 but my sentiment is the same- going into my 100 purchase I knew that getting it for $3k (precovid) and 295k meant there would be things I had to address. I understood this and was ale to do some of hte work myself. If I had the money and was in a position to do so, would I get a newer, lower mileage vehicle? Absolutely. However, i'd spend the hours doing the research ahead of time so I don't get sticker shock (not to insinuate you haven't done this)

This may get me flamed, but I find at times the 'mud hive tends to over hype some things in the sense a lot of people spend thousands on parts to baseline or do PM to their vehicle. Call it risky, but i'm more of the take a look and it if looks OK then don't sweat it for now, just file it away in the back of your mind. If I had taken the mud approach of replacing everything before driving, then I still wouldn't have driven my 100 three years later.

Radiator getting a crack but you're a month away from being able to swing a new one? Slather it with a whole tube of the right kind of JB weld. I did when my 100 OG radiator was browning and had a slick crack forming under the rad cap port (hole? location?) and it got me through until I could get the new one installed. Windshield leaking? Hit up insurance if you have that type of coverage, but do your reasearch and get it taken to a shop that is familiar with the LX platforms. Copy and paste for the other issues.

But time is money, so honestly if you are afraid of investing your time for fear of the time being lost in a wreck, perhaps look at getting a newer one and plan on trading every few years?

FWIW I think Rover products look amazing, but the only one I could come close to affording is an older LR4 or an L322, but it seems like those platforms are either 200k no problems, or 100k and its the worst car ever...

I don't have/need other numbers. I don't think it matters. For single owners, every vehicle is on an island. Just because 9 out of 10 go 1 million miles, if the one you bought stops at 100k, then what does it matter what the other 9 did. Those things would only matter to entities that are buying 50 or 100 or 1000 vehicles. They might care what happens on average.

I was just trying to give you a different angle to look at. Because I agree with you, if you are shopping for a vehicle with 180k miles on the clock and you think only 1 out of 5 of those vehicles are going to make it to 200k miles, and only 1 in 66 is going to make 300k, then it would be ludicrous to buy said vehicle for 25-35k. Obviously, the market does not agree with the 1 in 5 or 1 in 66 math, otherwise the cost of these vehicles would be much lower.

Your last comment is the one that is also tricky for me, as the 2013s started at $80kish new so is $30k a reasonable amount with 184k miles on it, even if not many make it beyond 200k miles? I am assuming LC/LXs reputation is based on something more than fanboy hype, but it would help to know if it is the real deal, and in my mind, only data can tell me that story.

I am currently watching many 2013-2015 LC/LXs and trying to decide what to do. I am thinking I may be more confident if I buy one with lower mileage, but the price jumps so much then it starts making me wonder if I should just get something new with more tech updates, etc. in that mid 30s price range.

This process has made me understand the fan club though as its hard to know what to do after driving them. I like both the LC/LX alot.

 

[Tex68w]

Buy something new for less now and you’ll still be longing for and drooling over the Cruisers. There’s only one way to settle this and that’s to get the Cruiser and see. If it’s not for you then you’d likely walk away without much of a loss if any.

 

[larsensa]

Buy something new for less now and you’ll still be longing for and drooling over the Cruisers. There’s only one way to settle this and that’s to get the Cruiser and see. If it’s not for you then you’d likely walk away without much of a loss if any.

and this is what has had me kicking myself on the 13 that sold when I went out of town a couple weeks ago. Paralysis by analysis caused me to lose it, and instead of driving it now I am still searching. Ugh

 

[NE Snowman]

and this is what has had me kicking myself on the 13 that sold when I went out of town a couple weeks ago. Paralysis by analysis caused me to lose it, and instead of driving it now I am still searching. Ugh

Find a 2013 Yukon or Tahoe with 180k, drive it see if held up like the LC, if you don't notice the anything....buy a newer/cheaper/not as cool

 

[larsensa]

Find a 2013 Yukon or Tahoe with 180k, drive it see if held up like the LC, if you don't notice the anything....buy a newer/cheaper/not as cool

I wouldn't expect them to so they are not on my list. Its why I am looking at LC/LX. I didn't really even know much about buying any cars/trucks with high mileage until a couple friends ended up with LCs and LXs. I don't know that there are any other vehicles I would even consider with high mileage as most I read about seem to become huge money pits. Land Rover/Range Rover is one I hear this about but I haven't done much research other than watching Scotty rip them a few times when I have made it through his videos...