Has anyone advanced the timing on 1FZ-FE?

[ppc]

What exactly do yall mean by pinging and knocking? Are these technical terms?

Those are non-technical terms used in place of the term pre-ignition. When pre-ignition is occurring the spark energy is being delivered to the plug prior to the piston reaching TDC - Top Dead Center causing a very noticeable noise. For optimum performance you try to adjust timing in advance of TDC just before pre-ignition occurs. Fuel quality (octane), engine temperature, load all effect when the condition will occur. Modern engines incorporate a knock sensor that automatically reduces timing for a short period of time. If the engine computer gets the signal from the knock sensor it reduces the timing significantly so you no longer are getting optimal performance but it protects the engine from destroying itself.

 

[yotadude]

Thanks.

 

[jlg32281]

I'm going to stir the pot. I think this "noticeable" difference in power from advancing the timing is in everyone's head. Look, these are 6000 lb trucks, advancing the timing a little yeilds aproximately 5 hp, automatic transmissions hide power changes to a degree; I simply don't buy it. You need to add quite a bit of power to make it "noticeable". I would like to see some technical data on this, like a 0-60 times before and after. I would be willing to bet there is less than .1 seconds difference in 0-60 and less than .05 seconds difference in quarter mile times. I'm not saying it doesn't increase power or make it run smoother, I'm saying that on a 1fze that is in good running condition without any other issues, the power gain from advancing the timing a little isn't going to be noticeable.

 

[yoopercharged]

5HP should be noticeable on these under powered rigs.

 

[notthejeepnomo]

while advancing timing with obdII models is it still nessasary to jump t1 e1. I have a 1995.5 fzj80. It has both obdII port under the dash and the OBDI port in the ps side of the engine bay.
To read codes i Use the ObdII port as the OBDI port does not cause any blinking.

 

[jlg32281]

5HP should be noticeable on these under powered rigs.

I disagree, not with that they are under powered, but that it would be noticeable. My other hobby is sports cars. I've built old v8 muscle, in line 6 toyota supras, modern v8 muscle, etc. You simply don't notice 5hp up or down on anything but a dyno.

 

[Pin_Head]

You simply don't notice 5hp up or down on anything but a dyno.

Yes. This is true.

The other side of this coin is operator bias.

Back when I was into drag racing, I was changing everything trying to shave a few tenths of a second off my ETs. As soon as I took it for a ride after swapping something, I was convinced that it made a noticable difference in power and performance. Then when I took to the track or put it on the dyno, I was disappointed to find that it made no difference or that the performance was actually worse. The things that actually make a significant difference on a good running engine are burning more fuel, increasing traction and cutting weight.

The corollary to this rule is the more time or money you spend, the more convinced you are.

 

[jlg32281]

Yes. This is true.

The other side of this coin is operator bias.

Back when I was into drag racing, I was changing everything trying to shave a few tenths of a second off my ETs. As soon as I took it for a ride after swapping something, I was convinced that it made a noticable difference in power and performance. Then when I took to the track or put it on the dyno, I was disappointed to find that it made no difference or that the performance was actually worse. The things that actually make a significant difference on a good running engine are burning more fuel, increasing traction and cutting weight.

The corollary to this rule is the more time or money you spend, the more convinced you are.

I'm glad someone else sees it my way. This is exactly what I was saying. It's all in their heads. There is no noticeable difference coming from these heavy trucks with just that. Now if they advance the timing, open up the exhaust, get a tune, and loose some weight, then it would be noticeable.

 

[98 SNAKE EATER]

Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I figured I'd share my experience with timing my rig....

I've had her since March of '07 and since day one, I've noticed a slight rattle just off idle during extremely hot weather

I figure it was normal as Toyota actually states this in the owner's manual for other models :shrug:

I recently replaced the dizzy O-ring which prompted me to search for threads on timing adjustments and found this one

Replaced the O-ring a couple weeks ago and just marked it using a scribe and sharpie...

Then last week I decided to check the timing as it's sumthin I've never done on this rig

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to see exactly where it was at initially as the timing plate was covered in oily muck (leaky oil pump seal), but I could see the 3* timing mark clearly and it was advanced quite a bit

My scanner actually read 3* at idle, but two of my timing lights said otherwise

Anyhoo, I set it to factory spec (3* BTDC) and drove it for a week without a hint of rattle

Went through 5 tanks of gas (yes, I'm a drivin mofo) and didn't notice any difference in mileage.....

As for power, I didn't notice any difference down low, however, there was quite a noticeable difference at highway speeds

Usually, my rig would hit 85-90mph with ease, but I now found it difficult to break 70mph without having to downshift and bury the gas pedal

So last night, I cleaned up the timing plate and bumped it up to 7*

Still no noticeable difference in power down low

She definitely woke up on the top end, but still a little off from where she used to be

I have zero rattle, so I'm thinking about bumping her up to 8 or 9* to try and find that sweet spot just before detonation

I'm gunna run her as is at 7* for a week to see if there's any change in mileage and rule out any bad gas

 

[nicholas]

Bump.

Interesting, I have a slight rattle too and definitely some pining under minimal load at 1800k rpm on the supercharged 97.

I tried to check the timing but when I jumped the terminals under the hood, I didn't get a CEL blinking like I did on out old 93. As a result it shows that I'm at 3* both with the terminals jumped and without.

Is there something I'm missing on the OBD2 rigs? Am I supposed to be jumping a terminal in the cab? Or just under the hood, PS side.

Thanks in advance,

-Pinging in AZ

Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I figured I'd share my experience with timing my rig....

I've had her since March of '07 and since day one, I've noticed a slight rattle just off idle during extremely hot weather

I figure it was normal as Toyota actually states this in the owner's manual for other models :shrug:

I recently replaced the dizzy O-ring which prompted me to search for threads on timing adjustments and found this one

Replaced the O-ring a couple weeks ago and just marked it using a scribe and sharpie...

Then last week I decided to check the timing as it's sumthin I've never done on this rig

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to see exactly where it was at initially as the timing plate was covered in oily muck (leaky oil pump seal), but I could see the 3* timing mark clearly and it was advanced quite a bit

My scanner actually read 3* at idle, but two of my timing lights said otherwise

Anyhoo, I set it to factory spec (3* BTDC) and drove it for a week without a hint of rattle

Went through 5 tanks of gas (yes, I'm a drivin mofo) and didn't notice any difference in mileage.....

As for power, I didn't notice any difference down low, however, there was quite a noticeable difference at highway speeds

Usually, my rig would hit 85-90mph with ease, but I now found it difficult to break 70mph without having to downshift and bury the gas pedal

So last night, I cleaned up the timing plate and bumped it up to 7*

Still no noticeable difference in power down low

She definitely woke up on the top end, but still a little off from where she used to be

I have zero rattle, so I'm thinking about bumping her up to 8 or 9* to try and find that sweet spot just before detonation

I'm gunna run her as is at 7* for a week to see if there's any change in mileage and rule out any bad gas

 

[breathed]

I did not get a flashing CEL when I shorted the E1 and TE1 terminals in the ECU service plug. I knew that I was in service mode because the timing held steady at 3 degrees. Without the paperclip the timing wandered around a few degrees.

It's possible that the CEL didn't flash because I didn't turn the engine off before I inserted the paperclip. I'll have to check this the next time I drive.

 

[wyocoyote]

I wonder
would be nice to see this on a dynonometer I haven't advanced my timing but found it to be 2 to 3 degrees out ( right at zero), and set it back to the specified 3 degrees btdc. seemed to be a significant difference when, but I changed the air filter as well at the same time. So this could just be tinkerers bias compounded with not taking something else into account (air filter) I'm begging for mpg rather than hp in my beast. Done right performance means economy an old guy who had a dynotune speed shop once told me.

 

[wyocoyote]

I have the undocumented feeling that I'm losing gas mileage from being advanced 4 degrees from stock on my 93. My bro in law's 93 consistently gets 2-3MPG better and that's without my anal care, proper inflation, synthetics, etc. I remember getting a notable performance improvement especially in the mid range RPMs but honestly driving his around I cannot tell a difference. If enough of you bitch at me I'll drop it back to stock and get the data. Otherwise, 12.5MPG isn't bothering me enough yet to mess with it since I still have to:
-dewinterize the boat for summer
-paint the livingroom, entry, and main room
-buy and install an ARB on both rigs
-repack the 93's front axle
-install the 3rd seatbelt in the 97's third row laying on the bench
-stain the deck
-organize my office
-organize the garage

Tonight I ran out of time and had to do something I've only joked about. I used my mountain bike racing helmet light to actually mow the lawn both at my home and our rental house in the dark. That's behind, guys. Gotta do what ya gotta do I guess......

DougM

9 years later, I'd like to hassle you to set it back to 3 and let us know. also might yoube more a leadfoot than your brother in law?

 

[wyocoyote]

I do not think it is the torque converter, my pinging goes away on premium gas, carbon deposits in the intake manifold should not cause pinging, but they do rob power though by restricting air flow.

More advanced timing makes it more likely to detonate than less advance. But I would not set the timing to any less than the stock three degrees before top dead center, if you are already at stock then move on to something else.

Higher intake air temperatures make it more likely to detonate than lower intake temperatures, so summertime or other hot conditions you are more likely to detonate than in cool or cold weather, a snorkel or any other cold air intake helps here. The sock intake gets its air indirectly from the engine bay, OBDII reports have seen 30 degree drops in air intake temperature when a cold air intake is used, also a supercharger or turbocharger will drastically increase intake air temperature, an intercooler helps with this on forced induction engines.

At higher altitudes you are less likely to detonate than at lower altitudes

It is more likely to detonate with higher intake manifold pressure than lower, so the more skinny pedal the more likely it is to detonate, forced induction can increase intake manifold pressure higher still per throttle opening and can go above ambient (boost).

Lower octane gas is more likely to detonate than higher octane gas,

Higher compression ratios are more likely to detonate than lower compression ratios, shaving the head or block increases compression ratio. Also excess carbon on piston tops and the bottom of the head can increase compression ratio my decreasing combustion chamber volume. From all the heads that have been off we know that this motor likes to build up carbon, I think excessive carbon build up is an unfortunate side effect of an engine that lasts a long time. Large amounts of funk form the PCV and EGR to not help.

At higher general engine temperatures it is more likely to detonate than at lower temperatures. Overheating even if mild can lead to detonation, check your cooling system.

Higher engine loads can cause detonation,

Fuel cools, leaner mixtures or mixtures that does not atomize well will make it more likely to detonate so slow responding O2 sensors and poor fuel injector spray patterns can cause detonation.

Several instances of any of the above add up, So if you have pinging pick these off one at a time until you fix the ping,

basically what this all boils down to is the temperature and pressure of the intake charge the condition of the cylinder (hot spots carbon etc) as the piston approaches top dead center between the compression and power stroke, if that temperature and pressure go above what the fuel can resist the charge will ignite on its own before the spark,

There are supposedly differences between pre-ignition and detonation, they are related and both cause a ping to be heard, both shorten engine life and come from the same kinds things so I personally don’t really differentiate between the two,

here is my engines story, when I got my 80 I advanced the timing got a notable increase in power, I was using premium gas at the time, no pinging summer or winter for 2 years and about 50K miles. No problems, recently with the sharp increase in gas prices and a matching decrease in my income I tried running regular and mid grade I get pining during acceleration in both, but more so with regular especially in hotter weather, pulling away from a light in heavy Atlanta traffic after idling a long time with the AC on seams to do it every time. same with a fast food drive through.

I put the timing back to stock 3 degrees hoping to be able to run regular without ping, it helped slightly but it needs more, I know from compression testes and by looking with a bore scope that my cylinders have rather high carbon build up, this is probably my biggest problem, high temperatures here in GA add to the problem.

I use good gas and have used the dump in the gas type cleaners (Techron, Redline) , they can clean up dirty injectors and maybe have an effect on the intake valves and intake pockets in the head but seam to do nothing for the cylinders, considering limited funds I think next step will be a decarbonizes using water see if that helps, that or give up and just run premium until the head comes off.

 

[wyocoyote]

decarbonizing with water very risky from what I have read

 

[wyocoyote]

I adjusted my timing a while back the by bridging the terminals and then setting it with a good timing gun. I noticed tonight with my Mac scan tool plugged in that it reads 4 degrees of timing at idle. I should be up around 10. What should I believe, my scan tool or the timing light?

Try a buddies light? I have no idea which i would believe, but the scan tool is basically telling you what the vehicles computer and sensor data, so seems I'd go with that. aligning marks on a crankshaft and grease coated slashes and numbers on cast iron with a strobe light can not be oh so precise?

 

[wyocoyote]

Read all 5 pages pretty carefully and it doesn't seem from what I have read that potential performance gains of changing the initial timing some 7 degrees different than recommended by the service manual are worth potential risks.
This of course means I gotta try it.

 

[Nors]

Bump.

Interesting, I have a slight rattle too and definitely some pining under minimal load at 1800k rpm on the supercharged 97.

I tried to check the timing but when I jumped the terminals under the hood, I didn't get a CEL blinking like I did on out old 93. As a result it shows that I'm at 3* both with the terminals jumped and without.

Is there something I'm missing on the OBD2 rigs? Am I supposed to be jumping a terminal in the cab? Or just under the hood, PS side.

Thanks in advance,

-Pinging in AZ

Im experiencing similar light pinging around 1800 in my supercharged 97.
3 degree timing with fresh rebuild.
One thing I was told related to computer leans out if driving light throttle for a while before the pinging.
What have you discovered?

 

[concretejungle]

have you guys tried replacing the knock sensors just in case?

 

[Blade 80LC]

Sorry to bump an ancient thread, but the links to the instructions are dead. Anyone with an updated link on the advanced timing instructions? I'm considering this to be done after I get a bunch of PM squared away. TIA!

Although others have posted an updated link on some of the other pages of this thread, I didn't see it on page 5. Ignition timing for the 4500cc petrol motor