Has anyone advanced the timing on 1FZ-FE? (2 Viewers)

[e9999]

I'd do this if it would increase mpg and not affect engine life adversely, but why on earth are you guys all so worried about power?

My rig has plenty of power for what I need it to do, that's never been an issue. Of course, I have reconciled myself with the notion that it's no Ferrari and I may irritate other drivers but I'm in Zen state when I drive it, so why would I care ...

 

[RavenTai]

I'd do this if it would increase mpg and not affect engine life adversely,but why on earth are you guys all so worried about power?

My rig has plenty of power for what I need it to do, that's never been an issue. Of course, I have reconciled myself with the notion that it's no Ferrari and I may irritate other drivers but I'm in Zen state when I drive it, so why would I care ...

I agree that a LC is no Ferrari, and aptemps to go to far in that direction can cause problems but I'll take a few free ponies when availabe, sitting at stock right now and I miss those few ponies.

I woudl not advance it unitl it pings unless you are monitoring the knock sensors, the ear can miss pings that the knock sensors will catch.

 

[Romer]

I'd do this if it would increase mpg and not affect engine life adversely, but why on earth are you guys all so worried about power?

Some of us live near mountains and Mountain passes. A little extra power means a lot there. Not concerned about 0-60 timeframe or top speed.

 

[NexusD]

Retrad or not to retrad that is the question?

Ok I have a question, not to high jack this post. I was on an off-road camping trip this passed week and I was getting a lot of pinging climbing hills or off the starting line. Let me set the conditions up for you guys, so you know what was going on.
I started out with a full load of camping gear in my 97LX450, running stock tires with the 2.5 lift on it. Filled up with 87 octane at 120 feet above sea level, I had no pinging until I started to climb to 1500 feet and above. The motor would ping every time I would let off the gas for a sharp turn and then get back on to the throttle. This situation persisted through out the trip at all altitude levels, I even tried 91 octane. Please keep in mind that at 10k miles before the trip I did all the PM work to my 97 LX450.
PM work List at 10K:
Plugs
Plug wires
Cap/rotor
O2 sensors
Fuel filter
Theirs more, but too much stuff to list. Now for my question; do I retard time or advance it? Could this be from a sensor, such as throttle position sensors or something?

Sorry for the long post but I this pinging has me crazy.
Thanks for the help

 

[cary]

I'm just going to follow up Nexus post with my own. My 80 always seems to have a trace ping off of idle. Anyone else? Possibly the torque converter making noise?

 

[e9999]

Ok I have a question, not to high jack this post. I was on an off-road camping trip this passed week and I was getting a lot of pinging climbing hills or off the starting line. Let me set the conditions up for you guys, so you know what was going on.
I started out with a full load of camping gear in my 97LX450, running stock tires with the 2.5 lift on it. Filled up with 87 octane at 120 feet above sea level, I had no pinging until I started to climb to 1500 feet and above. The motor would ping every time I would let off the gas for a sharp turn and then get back on to the throttle. This situation persisted through out the trip at all altitude levels, I even tried 91 octane. Please keep in mind that at 10k miles before the trip I did all the PM work to my 97 LX450.
PM work List at 10K:
Plugs
Plug wires
Cap/rotor
O2 sensors
Fuel filter
Theirs more, but too much stuff to list. Now for my question; do I retard time or advance it? Could this be from a sensor, such as throttle position sensors or something?

Sorry for the long post but I this pinging has me crazy.
Thanks for the help

happened to me too (with 3 deg advance), discussed this in a post some time back, and consensus seems to have been that this is normal, just pinging for the fraction of second that it takes for the sensor to correct the situation... IIRC

 

[flintknapper]

Did mine this evening. Advanced it to 8 degrees BTDC. There is a noticeable difference in off idle acceleration...right on up to highway speed. I'll drive it for awhile like this and listen for pinging.

Its hard to describe the difference. Not dramatic, but a seemingly more "instant" response than before. We'll see how it goes. Takes all of 10 minutes to do, so its definitely worth trying.

 

[alia176]

I wonder if the pinging is due to the carbon inside the intake and the air ways? I have the same pinging and it's worse in higher elevations and in hot weather.

 

[RavenTai]

I do not think it is the torque converter, my pinging goes away on premium gas, carbon deposits in the intake manifold should not cause pinging, but they do rob power though by restricting air flow.

More advanced timing makes it more likely to detonate than less advance. But I would not set the timing to any less than the stock three degrees before top dead center, if you are already at stock then move on to something else.

Higher intake air temperatures make it more likely to detonate than lower intake temperatures, so summertime or other hot conditions you are more likely to detonate than in cool or cold weather, a snorkel or any other cold air intake helps here. The sock intake gets its air indirectly from the engine bay, OBDII reports have seen 30 degree drops in air intake temperature when a cold air intake is used, also a supercharger or turbocharger will drastically increase intake air temperature, an intercooler helps with this on forced induction engines.

At higher altitudes you are less likely to detonate than at lower altitudes

It is more likely to detonate with higher intake manifold pressure than lower, so the more skinny pedal the more likely it is to detonate, forced induction can increase intake manifold pressure higher still per throttle opening and can go above ambient (boost).

Lower octane gas is more likely to detonate than higher octane gas,

Higher compression ratios are more likely to detonate than lower compression ratios, shaving the head or block increases compression ratio. Also excess carbon on piston tops and the bottom of the head can increase compression ratio my decreasing combustion chamber volume. From all the heads that have been off we know that this motor likes to build up carbon, I think excessive carbon build up is an unfortunate side effect of an engine that lasts a long time. Large amounts of funk form the PCV and EGR to not help.

At higher general engine temperatures it is more likely to detonate than at lower temperatures. Overheating even if mild can lead to detonation, check your cooling system.

Higher engine loads can cause detonation,

Fuel cools, leaner mixtures or mixtures that does not atomize well will make it more likely to detonate so slow responding O2 sensors and poor fuel injector spray patterns can cause detonation.

Several instances of any of the above add up, So if you have pinging pick these off one at a time until you fix the ping,

basically what this all boils down to is the temperature and pressure of the intake charge the condition of the cylinder (hot spots carbon etc) as the piston approaches top dead center between the compression and power stroke, if that temperature and pressure go above what the fuel can resist the charge will ignite on its own before the spark,

There are supposedly differences between pre-ignition and detonation, they are related and both cause a ping to be heard, both shorten engine life and come from the same kinds things so I personally don’t really differentiate between the two,

here is my engines story, when I got my 80 I advanced the timing got a notable increase in power, I was using premium gas at the time, no pinging summer or winter for 2 years and about 50K miles. No problems, recently with the sharp increase in gas prices and a matching decrease in my income I tried running regular and mid grade I get pining during acceleration in both, but more so with regular especially in hotter weather, pulling away from a light in heavy Atlanta traffic after idling a long time with the AC on seams to do it every time. same with a fast food drive through.

I put the timing back to stock 3 degrees hoping to be able to run regular without ping, it helped slightly but it needs more, I know from compression testes and by looking with a bore scope that my cylinders have rather high carbon build up, this is probably my biggest problem, high temperatures here in GA add to the problem.

I use good gas and have used the dump in the gas type cleaners (Techron, Redline) , they can clean up dirty injectors and maybe have an effect on the intake valves and intake pockets in the head but seam to do nothing for the cylinders, considering limited funds I think next step will be a decarbonizes using water see if that helps, that or give up and just run premium until the head comes off.

 

[DaveyBoy]

Does anyone think the increase in ethanol in gas has anything to do with pinging?
In MA, all gas now has a 10 percent make up of ethanol (replaces mbte)

I'm still getting very light pinging with the first 5 percent of throttle.
Just finished my tune up last night and I'll check/set the timing tonight.
(the plugs I removed were a perfect light tan, including #6)

Just curious

 

[scottm]

IdahoDoug advanced mine a few years ago, 6-degrees I think. I recently watched it with my OBDII software, the timing varied with engine speed and load. It doesn't seem to stay at one advance and back off when it pings, so I wonder what it uses to determine timing? Is there some feedback loop, or just preprogrammed varying from whatever is set? Or is it compensating for our setting it ahead, and we didn't accomplish anything? Maybe advancing it takes away it's ability to retard sufficiently when it detects knock? We burn regular 87, it knocks when we put cheap gas in it.

 

[RavenTai]

from what I undestand as long as a ping is not detected it follows both preprogrammed RPM map and also corrects based on readign of sensorsadvancing timing as RPM increases,

this computer calculated advance is in addition to what the base phisical advance is set to. the cam shaft sensor is in the distributor and when you turn the distributor you move the 0 point f the cam shaft sensor. the computer is unaware of base initial timing

there is a lengthy Toyota training PDF that explains all that goes inot

 

[pulse98]

The guys over at www.bobistheoilguy.com
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=5
They swear by Lube Control FP60 for reducing/eliminating pinging and cleaning the fuel path including the piston tops.

The experts on that board via oil analysis have determined that FP60 and Techron are the only two gas additives that do what they say, without harming the engine and bearings. They also say that my one time favorite cleaner, Redline SI-1, causes excessive bottom-end wear.

I just started using FP60 on my 80 and 2005 Sienna. Since my Sienna has a computerized mpg meter, I see that my mileage went from an average of 20.6 mpg to 21.5 mpg after I started using FP60. Since FP60 cost about $0.75 per fill-up and saves me about $2.50 in gas, it pays for itself.

I will report my 80 mpg increase/decrease after a couple more tanks of gas with and without FP60. I will also increase my timing after I determine FP60's effectiveness. Hopefully, FP60 will allow me to advance the timing to the degree recommended here without pinging.

 

[pulse98]

I just bumped my ignition timing to 9 degrees. Last week I added a bottle of Hyper Lube Super Coolant www.hyperlube.com/prod_cool.asp (I used to use Redline Water Wetter) to 20% coolant/80% water. Hopefully, the Super Coolant/extra water will afford a little bit extra pinging protection. No pinging so far.

 

[concretejungle]

i have been wanting to try and advance my timing, however i'm getting pretty good pinging right now at stock. So i think i need to hold out until i can eliminate some of the pinging. . . . . just don't know how.

 

[pulse98]

Try www.lubecontrol.com FP60 is great carbon cleaner that might help get rid of deposits. Those deposits are often responsible for pinging. I am on my second tank with that stuff. So far so good.

I am using their LC20 also.

 

[lockd-97]

I just posted this, but............Im already getting pinging in my 97 80 with only 106k miles on it. I've wanted to try advancing the timing, maybe just 3 degrees at a time, but it's probably going to make the pinging even worse.....right?

 

[pulse98]

lockd-97,

Don't advance the timing until you have your current pinging problems 100% solved.

Do you know how clean/dirty your combustion chambers are?

There are many possible reasons for pinging but if you haven't ever used a fuel injector/combustion chamber cleaner, you might want to try my above recommendations, FP60 and LC20.

As I mentioned, I am running at 9 degrees advance with no pinging. I go up long highway hills every day for work. I may try more advance when my friend with super-ping-sensing-ears can take a test drive with me.

 

[lockd-97]

Pulse.........how often do you have to use this stuff? Did you just get it from the website?

 

[pulse98]

Since FP60 costs $0.75 per tank doesage and saves about $2.50 in gas per tank, it pays for itself. FP60 is designed to be able to be used every tank.

I bought a gallon ($33 or so) from their website, that's enought to treat 640 gallons of gas.

From my perspective, it serves three main functions:
1. Added resistance to pinging (can allow for additional timing advance)
2. Better gas mileage
3. Continual fuel system/valve/combustion chamber cleaning