Builds GW Nugget's Family Haulin Lx450 build (12 Viewers)

[GW Nugget]

After going 4" and adjusting shock travel, I found the front swaybar created a lot of jerky counter suspension motion. I would take it off for wheeling and finally pulled it, where it's been collecting dust for years now.

I dont want to advise taking it off, but I do think it interacts with the suspension differently at different geometries (lift height, etc.) and with different spring/shock combos. There is no way I would use it on my rig and I do a lot of loaded family miles, but I only found that to be the case with somewhat more lift and shocks tuned to that lift.

I think there is something to hitting a lift point on the 80 that changes the dynamics from being more rolly polly, and it's counter intuitive for people who go through a lot of cycles trying to overly minimize lift when the result is actually retaining the factory sway dynamics and needing to keep the front bar. Which of course is then is a major impediment off-road.

The 80 is by far the best balanced off-road IMO with the rear bar on (resisting flex somewhat) and front off (allowing more balanced flex without losing the stability), but because it isn't suited for a quick disconnect, the front bar usually stays on. Once that is the case, it's difficult to get the suspension to feel balanced, and its easy to spend a good deal of coin chasing that feeling.

If spending the money, the pursuit of a front end sans swaybar is a very worthwhile goal. I don't think it requires $400 shocks, but again, trying to minimize lift may actually be counterproductive.

Im going to need to read this several time to digest what you wrote here, but I think what you're communicatin is if my rig has a solidly tuned suspension, most likely I can go without the front sway bar.
I tend to agree, I only have the front coils of the whole Slinky/Icon set up & I can feel the night & day difference already. I did finally yank out my sway bar last week after realizing that I will need to put 2.75" spacer on the sway bar to clearance the drive shaft for the longer 28.50" exstended shocks that I have. There has been mentioned that a 91 fj80 has a thinner sway bar that has a deeper sturup for drive shaft that works, but I don't know if it's AUS spec or USA spec yet? If so it sounds like a weaker sway bar would possibly work & just leave it on all the time.

 

[malteserunner]

Gary, if you decide a US spec '91 sway bar will work for you, let me know. Mine is collecting dust in the garage.

 

[GW Nugget]

Gary, if you decide a US spec '91 sway bar will work for you, let me know. Mine is collecting dust in the garage.

Cool, is there any way you can mic it or get measurement?

 

[Mieser]

It is interesting hearing that you are on the fence with the front sway bar. That gives me hope on my hybrid that I won't have to run one.

Since the front radius arm design basically provides some sway control by design, I wonder if the durometer/stiffness of the bushings could be adjusted to allow a touch less sway than the stock setup, but retain just enough complacency to maintain the articulation needed.

 

[BlueCruiser84]

@Mieser

I have front and rear off of my chopped 80 and rally the piss out of it on the back roads. It drives awesome. Running about a 3" lift. I might put the rear back on though to try and force some more flex out of the front.

I have just the front swaybar off of my full bodied 80 and it drives fine with stock rear coils and cheap shocks. Its only a 2" lift up front and 1" in the rear though.

 

[Mieser]

@Mieser

I have front and rear off of my chopped 80 and rally the piss out of it on the back roads. It drives awesome. Running about a 3" lift. I might put the rear back on though to try and force some more flex out of the front.

I have just the front swaybar off of my full bodied 80 and it drives fine with stock rear coils and cheap shocks. Its only a 2" lift up front and 1" in the rear though.

That is really good to know.

My FJ45-esk pickup should be pretty dang light overall, especially up top. The majority of the body is going to be aluminum without much of anything above the belt line of the chassis other than the cage, some aluminum panels, and the windows. Aluminum engine also. My hope is that the suspension will be really close to 'stock' height for a J80 series chassis. I am hoping the weight of the car is 3XXXlbs empty and about 4500 wet and loaded with fuel, people, and gear....with an even for slightly front bias weight distribution. It was 2950lbs last time I weighed it ( that was all the big parts in the chassis and the 40s and beadlocks ) so I think there is hope....

I think I left enough room in the front under the engine for the swaybar, but I would much rather be able to run around without it. The front swaybar seems like it would kinda get in the way....

 

[Nay]

Im going to need to read this several time to digest what you wrote here, but I think what you're communicatin is if my rig has a solidly tuned suspension, most likely I can go without the front sway bar.
I tend to agree, I only have the front coils of the whole Slinky/Icon set up & I can feel the night & day difference already. I did finally yank out my sway bar last week after realizing that I will need to put 2.75" spacer on the sway bar to clearance the drive shaft for the longer 28.75" exstended shocks that I have. There has been mentioned that a 91 fj80 has a thinner sway bar that has a deeper sturup for drive shaft that works, but I don't know if it's AUS spec or USA spec yet? If so it sounds like a weaker sway bar would possibly work & just leave it on all the time.

Yes, you should be able to run without one. The other point, at least as I have experienced, is that the radius arm design is more effective in reducing sway without a swaybar at 4" (and greater I would assume, but have not tested) than lower lifts, probably due to arm angle geometry. I also think the suspension geometry starts interacting negatively with the swaybar, including when it is dropped, at that height.

That's the counterintuitive part about trying to stay low - I think it actually keeps you in a geometry range that interferes with the ease of dialing in the suspension. The simple beauty of the 80 series in regards to geometry/lift/alignment specs is that Toyota used a broken back setup for the front driveshaft, so when you convert to a DC shaft (keeping costs low using a Taco shaft) at 4" of lift, you have caster perfectly in spec. That is a gift that makes these rigs incredibly easy to dial @ 4", and then other advantages come into play.

 

[GW Nugget]

The simple beauty of the 80 series in regards to geometry/lift/alignment specs is that Toyota used a broken back setup for the front driveshaft, so when you convert to a DC shaft (keeping costs low using a Taco shaft) at 4" of lift, you have caster perfectly in spec. That is a gift that makes these rigs incredibly easy to dial @ 4", and then other advantages come into play.

@Nay ,Will you expand your comments on the Taco drive shaft... is it a direct fit? What years? What is a broken back set up? Also as far as geometry I have the MAF drop brackets on the front control arms.

 

[Nay]

@Nay ,Will you expand your comments on the Taco drive shaft... is it a direct fit? What years? What is a broken back set up? Also as far as geometry I have the MAF drop brackets on the front control arms.

Here's a thread of mine to get you started:

Tacoma DC Shaft Installed - Unusual Result?

The direct bolt on flanges are from one side of the two-piece shaft from an xtra cab. It's a double cardan, so would be used with caster plates pointing the pinion directly inline with the driveshaft. I think the model years were 1998-2002, but some more searching should narrow it down if you don't find it in my thread. The shaft may need to be shortened a bit and rebalanced. I spent something like $240 total to retain a Toyota part, and I probably paid a premium for the driveshaft, worth the pennies for its demonstrated good condition. Those driveshafts are a lot older now as well (that thread is 10 years old!), so not sure that is still something a lot of people do vs. just forking over the coin for something new.

So three benefits if you can find a good donor: first, cost and a Toyota part. Second, no driveline vibes. Third is because the stock shaft is broken back the pinion is pointed up more than typical. So going to a DC actually requires lowering the pinion and you get caster back by doing that. It's more than a little stroke of luck and you can use Toyota parts. Mine has been one for over 100K miles, had 130K when I sourced it, and is still nice and smooth.

But any custom DC shaft will get you the second and third benefits and it will be brand new.

 

[baldilocks]

Gary, I agree with a new custom DC shaft. And second gen taco shaft you find will have lots of miles. There are new parts made in the USA that will bolt directly to your outputs. I was able to retain my stock slip joint and run the Mastuba joint at the pinion.
I have run no front sway bar at 3"-4"and 5" of lift. Recently I had no sway bar installed running 5" front and 4" rear springs. One word, DANGEROUS! At least at higher speeds. I removed my rear swaybar when I rotated my pinion up for the DC shaft. I decided to make taller axle mounts set up for quick disconnects on the front sway bar and welded a small tab to the frame where I can pin it up when on the trail. The front sway bar alone has a more positive affect during quick maneuvers than just the rear alone especially at higher speeds.
One day I may get tired of crawling underneath to disconnect and stow up my front sway bar at trails head but you can bet that if I ever remove it permanently, my rear bar will back on and working satisfactorily because zero sway bars is a recipe for disaster.

 

[malteserunner]

Cool, is there any way you can mic it or get measurement?

 

[GW Nugget]

Thanks you're the MAN!
I'm at work so I can't measure mine, but after a search it looks like a fzj80 sway bar is like 1.1" vs. your fj80 at.945" In metric it is close to 24mm & 27mm.

To move forward with the thought a weaker sway bar up front could be that happy medium solution to just leave it on all the time. Maybe, Hmmm? The idea of crawling under a hot rig after a long trail ride just is not a ideal situation for me, I tend to leave it on rather then disconnecting it. When i leave my sway bar on I feel a more rigid ride & less flex which creates more body roll & a less balanced feel. Bla bla bla...

EDITED LATER...
@malteserunner
I measured just with a tape & without a doubt it's over 1" it's closer to like 1 1/8th.

 

[bmwjnky]

Thanks you're the MAN!
I'm at work so I can't measure mine, but after a search it looks like a fzj80 sway bar is like 1.1" vs. your fj80 at.945" In metric it is close to 24mm & 27mm.

To move forward with the thought a weaker sway bar up front could be that happy medium solution to just leave it on all the time. Maybe, Hmmm? The idea of crawling under a hot rig after a long trail ride just is not a ideal situation for me, I tend to leave it on rather then disconnecting it. When i leave my sway bar on I feel a more rigid ride & less flex which creates more body roll & a less balanced feel. Bla bla bla...

It's not too bad to get under the truck to hook the sway bar back up, the hardest part is finding flat ground so the pins aren't a pain to get back through the bushings.

 

[ToyotaDon]

When did you add the poll?

 

[GW Nugget]

When did you add the poll?

A couple days ago just to have fun. Eventually at some point I need to decide how far to go with this family wagon. But until then I'm going to make this rig as comfy & cozy on the trail for my family as possible.
Some day it might even earn a "TRAIL RATED" plaqard for the front side panel.... some day....

 

[Nay]

A couple days ago just to have fun. Eventually at some point I need to decide how far to go with this family wagon. But until then I'm going to make this rig as capable, comfy & cozy on the trail for my family as possible.

You already answered your question if you add one word. I FIFY above .

Your answer is 80 series, 4" lift, 37" tires, 5.29 gears, and a properly tuned suspension. I think this video perfectly shows the strengths and weaknesses of the 80, as well as the weaknesses of loud spotting...



There is both the clearance issue of a big low hanging frame (the lift needed to make that problem go away is beyond the factory design), but also how effortlessly it moves through difficult terrain when you can keep it clear.

I also don't think it is ever as fun as when the kids are younger. In this case, my two older sons (and their friend who gets a cameo appearance at the end) ride along. I wheeled way more when they were this age. The beauty of the 80 is set it, forget it, and go wheeling before life changes the various interests and obligations.

 

[GW Nugget]

Mr. @Nay 1st off I want to welcome you back to the forum.
Also I want to let you know that in the short few years here I have had the opportunity to read hundreds of threads & thousands of posts where you have been in the thick of descusions figuring out what works or doesn't work. I just want thank you for your time to pioneering the 80 series luxury SUVs. You where wheelin these 80 when the're value was 20K to 30K. You are a true veteran & I value you time.

I am finding that the 4" lift seems to be the sweet spot for larger tires. To keep a 40/60 stroke ratio on the shock up front without restricking uptravel is tricky. (I understand you are a 50/50 guy). When I had my OME L shocks on my 2.5" lift the L shock had 4.5" shock shaft left. As long as one can get to 5" of uptravel at 3" or 4" of lift is very good. If one can achieve 5" of uptravel with a 3" lift why not???

Let me back up because I know you haven't read my thread. I am currently changing over to the Slinky Suspension which is turning out to be a a bit more than a 3" lift plus a 1" body lift, so I'm right there where you say I need to be. I'm just doing it a tad different. I also have cut 2" out of my front fenders so I could remove the restrictive 1.5" bump stop pucks I had. So I'm at 3.25" suspension with 5" of uptravel (like you keep writing) at the shock & 7" of down with .5" bump stop pucks up front & 1.5" rear (You I'm guessing have 2.5" bump stops up front & rear to stop the 37s). I am fortunate to have the 3 to 1 Marlin Tgears which comes out to be lower than 5:29s. I'm also running the 2.5" MAF drop brackets for caster. In the rear I'm now sitting 1" low with the 862 plus 30mm (1.5" lift) which was level with the 851's plus 25mm spacer equivalent to a 850 2.5" coil.

So I'm buying what you are selling here & I'm still listening.

Currently sitting low in rear.
Center of hub to bottom of flare front is 24.25" rear is 23" so my lift total with body lift is 4.25" front & 3" in rear. Hopefully a winch & battery will even things out. I'm really happy with my rear coils, they just are not tall enough right now.

 

[Nay]

Thanks for the welcome, glad the history has been of some use. I've read through (and enjoyed) some of your thread here as well as the slinky thread. I think you've been through what I would have warned you of with OME . I think you've been through enough paces to advise what's working and not .

I have 2" bumpstop drops. My shocks are the 10" travel eye mount fox 2.0 remote reservoir, and that shock is 26.13" extended and 16.13" compressed. The eye mount conversion in the rear drops the mount 1.25".

I think the key is settling in on the lift height range you are getting to, and then the shocks and coil travel should deliver a very solid sweet spot. I don't think there's only one way to do that, although on a rig that isn't slinky by nature, I have always thought the quest for long travel was mostly a paper tiger with more likely negative effects than positive.

But...unless you do the pin to eye adapters for the shocks, you do get forced into extra shock travel when you lift. That's been a simple lesson the Jeep world learned 20 years ago and hasn't really seemed to translate here, and it's been a perpetual tail wagging the dog issue where people tinker endlessly around "L" shocks that in the world of OME are pretty much just a bin part. It's a very strange part to sit at the basis of so much 80 series suspension design.

But I'm really curious to see how the slinky setup works in the world of daily driving and trail use. I don't think I'd personally change my shock strategy, but it would be nice if that can net out at 4" of lift since it's a whole range of spring options that aren't expo weight oriented.

I'll subscribe and offer any insights if there really are any more in a pretty simple formula

 

[GW Nugget]

But...unless you do the pin to eye adapters for the shocks, you do get forced into extra shock travel when you lift. That's been a simple lesson the Jeep world learned 20 years ago and hasn't really seemed to translate here, and it's been a perpetual tail wagging the dog issue where people tinker endlessly around "L" shocks that in the world of OME are pretty much just a bin part. It's a very strange part to sit at the basis of so much 80 series suspension design.

@Nay , I don't understand this staitment... why use only 10" shocks if you can fit 12" shocks under your lift without restricting uptravel? As long as both are 12" stroke.

 

[jtwopark]

take into consideration that he did mention the adapter piece that adds 1.25"

I know this is and probably will be a silly question but what are the specs on the slinky springs? can they handle all the weight that we carry?...if so maybe i might want to experiment with springs again!