Front swaybar quick disconnects revisited and tested

[Lumpskie]

Drove it down the classic washboard Colorado road and it shook the cotter pins out- both of them. The loose sway bar ripped the brake line out on the right. All of this on the way down Yankee Boy Basin with the kids onboard. Drive the whole way down without brake fluid.

If this picture represents the pins used... I don't know how the pin pictured on top could shake out. What do you think happened?
Swaybar Disconnects - Land Cruiser Products - LCP

 

[Iceaxe]

That cotter pin can and does come out. It is what happened- take a drive on some washboards and see for yourself.

 

[Lumpskie]

That cotter pin can and does come out. It is what happened- take a drive on some washboards and see for yourself.

Not trying to be disrespectful here. Just trying to understand. From the picture, it looks like the design uses one cotter pin and one wire hoop retainer pin. Are you saying that the wire hoop retainer pin also shook loose? If so, how do you think that could happen? I'm asking because I've used wire hoop retainer pins on my removable winch mount for years and didn't have an issue. Maybe there is something different in this design (orientation, size, forces) that makes them more susceptible to failure than my setup?

 

[Iceaxe]

I’m not sure- what we saw was the pin was out, hanging by the wire. The installation instructions were not clear about this (to my reckoning). Perhaps we didn’t install it correctly? Either way, what I’m pushing for here is clear, non-ambiguous language for the less than initiated / aware for the explicit risks involved. There are many folks on mud who have little to no experience off roading or working through these different mods. Many of us read these threads and give it a try. The material I received did not include the explicit warnings- if they had, I probably would have gotten one of the off road specialists to check it over with me just to be safe.

The concern here is not so much the product but awareness of the explicit risk in using the product. It’s as simple as that.

 

[concretejungle]

I would like to comment that i feel any and all of us that decide to modify our trucks from their original set-up automatically take on the liability. The vendor can do all they can to explain and disclose any possible issues, or, some vendors can simply avoid it and not communicate at all. Either way, at the end, we as the owner who purchased the product and install it are liable.

 

[Iceaxe]

^ right. But some mods carry different levels of risk to your personal safety than others, correct?

 

[Steve D]

I've used these disconnects for about a year and a half (+/-13,000 miles) with no issues. I noticed when cycling my suspension (per LCP's instructions) that I was getting too much droop even with extended sway blocks so I added a pair of limit straps.

I also use these style pins. I find them easier to remove/install since they don't require tools. YMMV.

 

[concretejungle]

^ right. But some mods carry different levels of risk to your personal safety than others, correct?

maybe.. but even something as simple as trying a different wheel fastener could result in your wheel falling off going down the street. So, i hear what you are saying and i agree with you, but liability in this industry is a gorilla.

 

[Steve D]

^ right. But some mods carry different levels of risk to your personal safety than others, correct?

maybe.. but even something as simple as trying a different wheel fastener could result in your wheel falling off going down the street. So, i hear what you are saying and i agree with you, but liability in this industry is a gorilla.

And how the driver treats the rig can have quite an influence.

 

[Iceaxe]

My interest in this particular discussion is:

• protection of our community- there is a prioritization of risk here
• protection of the vendor community that supports us

Let's hypothetical and say the product isn't safe unless installed by certified professionals. But it's a terrific product. Then the industry standard is a disclaimer that is clearly posted up-front that protects the manufacturer from liability. Transparency should not be feared- rather it should be viewed as empowering for any vendor to include in a disclaimer.

The moment someone dies in this community due to claimed installation of any of these products- what would be the outcome for our community (consumers AND vendors)? Certainly not something any of us want to contemplate, and I'd like to see us be a little more tight about the risk conversation- in order to protect this great community we have.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Iceaxe]

And how the driver treats the rig can have quite an influence.

View attachment 1589768

Zero disagreement. But this entire subthread orbits around effective communication.

 

[1973Guppie]

My interest in this particular discussion is:

• protection of our community- there is a prioritization of risk here
• protection of the vendor community that supports us

Let's hypothetical and say the product isn't safe unless installed by certified professionals. But it's a terrific product. Then the industry standard is a disclaimer that is clearly posted up-front that protects the manufacturer from liability. Transparency should not be feared- rather it should be viewed as empowering for any vendor to include in a disclaimer.

The moment someone dies in this community due to claimed installation of any of these products- what would be the outcome for our community (consumers AND vendors)? Certainly not something any of us want to contemplate, and I'd like to see us be a little more tight about the risk conversation- in order to protect this great community we have.

Hope this makes sense.

put down your wrench and stop modifying your truck, problem solved.

 

[Steve D]

Zero disagreement. But this entire subthread orbits around effective communication.

Now that you have had time to digest what failed, please let us know what was lacking in LCP's documentation? Your implication is that there was some critical information or step in the installation process that he failed to include in the written instructions.

What caused the cotter pins to be driven out of both pins holding the bar in place? Can we agree that a properly-sized hairpin-style cotter pin can't be rattled loose unless it has been stretched apart? Did something catch on the tether and pull the cotter pin? Given how protected that area is from debris or sticks or whatever, the chance that could happen on both sides is effectively 0%.

 

[NateMob]

If you need help with cotter pins and 4 bolts you have no business modifying your own rig. The instructions included with said product are fine and mine have been down plenty of rough and washboard roads. No pins walking out on their own, if i failed to latch them properly i could see an issue happening.

Either way, things happen and parts fail. I'm sorry you and your family had a scare but get over it.

 

[Iceaxe]

I seem to be taking heat for pointing out a bad experience that could have ended with loss of life. I recognize the zeal to protect a colleague (LCP), but the fact of the matter is the instructions did not explicitly include mention of the potential of wiping out your brake lines and ABS. It is what it is. The cotter pin fail did happen, and may not happen in your rig as it did in mine. In my case, I was convinced it was the high frequency vibration with a weak catch (I did not use the pins shown in Steve D's picture, but the ones that came in the kit- which looked like a typical cotter pin you could have bought at Home Depot).

"Either way, things happen and parts fail. I'm sorry you and your family had a scare but get over it."

With this comment I interpret the community would rather we not talk about potential mishaps like this and cover the information up. Please reassure me that is not the case.

 

[Iceaxe]

"put down your wrench and stop modifying your truck, problem solved."

Funny, but not the point. Some mods carry very low risk. Some carry risk. Some may carry above average risk. This is a conversation worth having, unless you would like Mud to be solely for people with 25 years' experience as an LC mechanic.

 

[NateMob]

I seem to be taking heat for pointing out a bad experience that could have ended with loss of life. I recognize the zeal to protect a colleague (LCP), but the fact of the matter is the instructions did not explicitly include mention of the potential of wiping out your brake lines and ABS. It is what it is. The cotter pin fail did happen, and may not happen in your rig as it did in mine. In my case, I was convinced it was the high frequency vibration with a weak catch (I did not use the pins shown in Steve D's picture, but the ones that came in the kit- which looked like a typical cotter pin you could have bought at Home Depot).

"Either way, things happen and parts fail. I'm sorry you and your family had a scare but get over it."

With this comment I interpret the community would rather we not talk about potential mishaps like this and cover the information up. Please reassure me that is not the case.

I am not here covering for LCP as much as I am covering for a simple product that has worked well for me.

BUT, I reassure you that LCP isn't putting out a product to harm or endanger anyone. I've seen posts by you condemning the disconnects more than once. LCP says to check clearances afterwards but EVEN if he didn't, why wouldn't you? Do you expect for every aftermarket product to explain in detail what might happen in a worst case scenario?

 

[1973Guppie]

I seem to be taking heat for pointing out a bad experience that could have ended with loss of life. I recognize the zeal to protect a colleague (LCP), but the fact of the matter is the instructions did not explicitly include mention of the potential of wiping out your brake lines and ABS. It is what it is. The cotter pin fail did happen, and may not happen in your rig as it did in mine. In my case, I was convinced it was the high frequency vibration with a weak catch (I did not use the pins shown in Steve D's picture, but the ones that came in the kit- which looked like a typical cotter pin you could have bought at Home Depot).

"Either way, things happen and parts fail. I'm sorry you and your family had a scare but get over it."

With this comment I interpret the community would rather we not talk about potential mishaps like this and cover the information up. Please reassure me that is not the case.

stop being dramatic, nobody is "covering anything up", I for one think LCP is a prick , the community is telling you that you should take responsibility for your own work rather than dumping blame on a small time mfg, LCP sells a few simple tidbits and a bracket, that's it, it's up to you how you make it work. If you want a ready to go vehicle in a box, go buy a jeep rubicon. You disconnected your factory swaybar, he just provided pieces to help do it, it is up to you to do it correctly and determine you won't have issues. I would suggest you revert back to a factory setup for piece of mind.

 

[Iceaxe]

I am not here covering for LCP as much as I am covering for a simple product that has worked well for me.

BUT, I reassure you that LCP isn't putting out a product to harm or endanger anyone. I've seen posts by you condemning the disconnects more than once. LCP says to check clearances afterwards but EVEN if he didn't, why wouldn't you? Do you expect for every aftermarket product to explain in detail what might happen in a worst case scenario?

No one is saying LCP intentionally did anything here. But I'm disturbed by the reaction here instead of simply saying, "Yeah, makes sense- let's simply point out there is real potential for danger if you failed to install correctly". Is what I'm saying that difficult to understand?

You want to keep using that product? Feel free. But don't expect others who didn't have a positive experience not say something.

 

[1973Guppie]

"put down your wrench and stop modifying your truck, problem solved."

Funny, but not the point. Some mods carry very low risk. Some carry risk. Some may carry above average risk. This is a conversation worth having, unless you would like Mud to be solely for people with 25 years' experience as an LC mechanic.

It is the point. You are not willing to take any responsibility for your own failure to install the product and test your vehicle properly before taking it on the trail. Like I said, the responsibility is yours to install the simple bits and pieces that are sold to you correctly and ensure they are safe and work properly on your vehicle. If the cotter pin was the wrong size, damaged, whatever, you should of caught it and corrected the situation.