Front Flex? (1 Viewer)

[Walking Eagle]

I asked around here a couple years ago about this one. Would an HD swaybar up front help with body roll on the highway? I already disconnect mine off road, so there would be no harm to my off-road manners.

Nobody seemed to think it was a good idea.

but you also have a bunch of people who think that running without them is a good idea. I think the other problem is some people have a bias against one of the only sources of them. Slee might have a point, and they may require better bushings as well. Like anything, you make one part stronger, and the week point moves to the next weekest point.

I'll phrase it like this....

I would say it's a good idea, should yield better road manners, and since you're disconnecting off road will not effect off road performan. BUT (isn't there always a but) implementation of that good idea might require some additonal improvements to bushings and such. Or, you might not use your rig the same way as those with failures, and won't see the same failure.

Tulsa is tough on bushings, lots of heat here in the summer, dries stuff out pretty good.

 

[Walking Eagle]

We do have bolt in shocks that are 2" longer than OME that we offer to people. We do not include them standard due to limited supply and people need to make sure with a longer shock that you do not over compress as well as make sure the spring does not become unseated. That is why we do not list them with the kit. We also have access to these direct bolt in shocks that have swivel pins at the ends to ensure that there is no side loading on the pins. However they are a pretty high $ option. These are the same shocks that Ben ran on his XRRA racing truck last year. We did the testing on that truck to determine reliability.

Now those are some sweet looking shocks. I was wondering how long it'd take someone to use that style pin end on a 80 product. I've seen them advertised for jeeps for a while, your's looks a little different though - either way, very cool.

 

[Bikeman]

Christo, you'll have a bunch of calls today!

 

[Walking Eagle]

so, since you (akarilo), have a second set of arms - so do I actually, and this is intreging enough I might have to consider doing this with them - here's an idea for you if you don't want to pay shipping on arms from austrailia

(these dwgs are not to scale at all, just representative)

Step 1 Take your normal arm cut it off after the first mount.

Step 2 Fip it and rotate it to the top of what's left of the arm

Step 3 Weld it to the top of the arm

Step 4 Brace it

Step 5 - make two L-shaped plates to mount to two axle mounts and the new mount you've just welded on top of yout arm

Step 6 - Ramp it w/ this arm and stock arm to get an empirical improvement, then run it a bit and see what real world improvement you got.

 

[Walking Eagle]

rest of the models...


I actually wonder if this isn't how they made their first prototype. It's interesting cause really as far as I can tell it's just a Y-link raidus arm, and the inovative part is using the two plates to use current mounts to get the top mounting for the Y. I thought it might have soemthing to do with the plates going through the one remaining stock bushing, but it isn't through it in such a way that it would effect that bushing.

I'd say it's worth one scraped arm, two plates, and a little welding time to give it a try.

 

[Walking Eagle]

It's good to have you back around so we can talk about something besides OCD Blackstone oil reports

Thanks, I've been around, I've just been quiet. Haven't had any major projects going lately, except the switch to 37's. Picking up grease for a front end rebuild today, hopefully I can get that done this weekend if the weather holds - some times it sucks having a truck too tall for the garage.

 

[rhyary]

I still run my front sway when not wheeling.
I replaced the bolts at the axle end of the swaybar with spring-retained pins. I welded some simple retainer brackets (drilled out angle iron) above that point on the frame. When I'm going wheeling I unpin the front bar from the axle and pin the ends up against the frame, out of the way.

Hayes,
Would you mind giving us a detailed picture(s) on your front sway bar quick connect?

 

[VCCruzr]

Hayes,
Would you mind giving us a detailed picture(s) on your front sway bar quick connect?

There are some good pics in this thread:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/351492-sway-bar-disconnects.html

 

[kidglove13]

My front end does not seem to flex like some of the stock front end pictures here.
My front end definitly does not flex like Nay's or the one in Slee's photo either.
I know that there are some differences but for the most part they are oem radius arms and such.
Why won't mine flex like that?

 

[Hayes]

There are some good pics in this thread:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/351492-sway-bar-disconnects.html

That's pretty much what mine look like.

 

[Hayes]

My front end does not seem to flex like some of the stock front end pictures here.
My front end definitly does not flex like Nay's or the one in Slee's photo either.
I know that there are some differences but for the most part they are oem radius arms and such.
Why won't mine flex like that?

Maybe not as extreme as some of the other examples, but here is mine with OME 850/863, OME bushings, and no front swaybar. Maybe it's that crappy FOR lift you've got :

 

[akarilo]

Thanks, I've been around, I've just been quiet. Haven't had any major projects going lately, except the switch to 37's. Picking up grease for a front end rebuild today, hopefully I can get that done this weekend if the weather holds - some times it sucks having a truck too tall for the garage.

Front end rebuild? Does this mean you've got your gears in already?

 

[kidglove13]

Nice Rig!
I dont run a front sway bar.
And still does not flex like that.
I wonder if the bushings are a big part in the problem.
I am still running the original oem bushings!

 

[Hayes]

Nice Rig!
I dont run a front sway bar.
And still does not flex like that.
I wonder if the bushings are a big part in the problem.
I am still running the original oem bushings!

By some accounts the factory bushings flex better.

 

[Tapage]

I wonder why only modify the arm on one side. It is very interesting, I'd like to see some pics of the results as driveability would seem largely unaffected.

how .. this thread fly overnight ..

I thought it's just like a 3 link .. what they are trying to replicate .. I wil ltake pics of my buddy Patrol with this setup ..

 

[Nay]

My front end does not seem to flex like some of the stock front end pictures here.
My front end definitly does not flex like Nay's or the one in Slee's photo either.
I know that there are some differences but for the most part they are oem radius arms and such.
Why won't mine flex like that?

Mine doesn't just flex out like the pic I posted, either, in every situation. It is still very restricted. The pic I posted is a very twisted up line that forces max flex out of the system front to rear.

I post it to show that the 80 is not just a bundle of no front end flex, but it does not flex like that if you aren't really crossed up.

 

[Nay]

Anybody thought of plain old simple leaf springs??
They are Stable and have the ability to flex great if done properly.

Yes, for years.

The 80 gets its stability from the front end design. Which is why if you 3 link you may not like it. A 3 link is not an inherent stability problem when converting from a four link suspension - all you are doing is removing one upper mount, which controls the position of the pinion. So if your suspension was already designed around a coil sprung four link, like a Jeep, a 3-link is not altering suspension design per se: it is removing a redundant link.

So my thought on wanting to free up the front end is that you need to stabilize the rear, and given that 80 series coil springs are so designed around rear weight load bearing (the whole endless stinkbug discussion), it could be that converting the 80 rear to leafs would be a natural transfer of suspension stability to the rear along with the load bearing properties of leaf springs.

Now if you take a good look at the 80 series frame, it curves up right after the point you would mount a leaf spring, making it well set up for a shackle mount and a relatively flat leaf spring. Just eyeballing it, I think you would get about 6" of lift with what would be a flat spring and therefore essentially stock suspension dynamics including roll axis. Add an anti-wrap bar and you are good.

So now that we have cared for stability and load bearing with what is probably a cheap 63" Chevy spring (conversion paid for by selling all of your aftermarket rear links and coils ) and created a lot of lift height within that stability we can now use a mid-arm (about 22") design to 3-link the front in an overall design where the front end does not have so much responsibility for stability and can be freed up to really flex.

The mid arm design moves the mount forward to not far from the back of a 37" tire, so you are eliminating one of the major compromises of long radius arms: clearance.

Yes, people will point out that this is a Jeep Cherokee suspension. And that is exactly the point. It is extremely easy to lift an XJ 7" without introducing any significant geometry issues, but extremely difficult to do the same with a Jeep quad coil suspension without fundamental re-work. That is purely for one reason: the XJ has rear leafs instead of coils.

Now nobody would build this design for a buggy, or a pure offroad bias design, but to have excellent stability and load bearing on a big lift without needing overly high spring rates could be an excellent design goal because you are eliminating the issues introduced in suspension geometry by running a highly angled link system at the same time (and using the simplest possible suspension technology in the process). The 80 and the XJ both share a very balanced front to rear weight ratio, so it seems like a very viable application to me.

This is what an XJ on this exact setup (7: lift) looks like on a 12" travel shock on 37's. This rig has run the Hammers and other BOTW trails and it is not a trailer queen. Notice in the road shot the mount position of the lower arms - when the tire clears so does the arm, but because it is mounted flush to the axle (LCA) the angles are still good from a geometry perspective despite not running a typical 30+ arm length in suspension conversions.

I wish I had a pure project 80 to try this conversion - of course at that point I'd have enough lift for 39's and you know where all of that is headed

 

[Walking Eagle]

Front end rebuild? Does this mean you've got your gears in already?

nope, it means I ran into some unexpected financial drains, and gears are on the to do list once I get some cash - but the front end is in desperate need - and is giving me some vibes at speed with the 37's, so it's gonna be piece meal on th egears unfortuantely.

 

[Walking Eagle]

dang, it's amazing how was seems perfect when you're 10 miles away from your truck, doesn't seem to line up right when you grab the parts.

could still do it with stock parts, just would have to use 2 arms to make one, cause I think the cut point you would have to use to get the top part long enough is just about at the edge or the middle of the 2nd bushing hole.

Maybe grab a radius arm from a dodge FSP to sacrifice?

or another LC arm I guess

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the ram arm might be longer though in that area - maybe I can get out and scrounge a yard next weekend...

 

[akarilo]

dang, it's amazing how was seems perfect when you're 10 miles away from your truck, doesn't seem to line up right when you grab the parts.

could still do it with stock parts, just would have to use 2 arms to make one, cause I think the cut point you would have to use to get the top part long enough is just about at the edge or the middle of the 2nd bushing hole.

Maybe grab a radius arm from a dodge FSP to sacrifice?

or another LC arm I guess.

That is some great Red-neck inginuity

Do you think one could achieve a solid enough weld to make it reliable?