Building Bulletproof Axles

[Delancy]

Sure, it's still longs in the front. There isn't another option.

OEM was the other in discussion, but resounding input seems to be Long's, so guess there's little debate or comparison.

Good news! I'll swap axles with you

Ever seen Tulsa in the fall, especially after a drought? It's beautiful.

Classic.

Glad someone got it.

Edited for context, but relates to the referenced.

Seeing a problem a few times and declaring the unit a POS and swapping out whole components is one way to go and maybe that's is the final solution, but for me I am going to try a more elegant solution.

Sig worthy.

 

[Delancy]

Deleted for continuity.

 

[akarilo]

I always love the guys who think because they break a lot of crap that they are some bad ass wheeler.

Ha! 9 times out of 10 they're driving a Jeep. The difference between a stock Toyota drive train verses a Jeep is truly comical; but that's a whole other topic.

 

[powderpig]

Longs in front only if you plan on running part time(either with the t-case kit or removing the drive shaft and installing manual hubs). They wear too fast and will bind in the long haul. Remember Longs warranty is only if they break, not make noise. Other wise if your Birfs are in good shape or you are going with new birfs, get them Cryo treated. This will help with the strength and not soften them up if done right. Yes one can treat the stock birfs with a good cryo treatment with out softing them up. Not all cryo treatments are like the old treatments that soften materials too much.
As for the e-locker Vs other stuff. Yea, other stuff are stronger, but to what point. I think some other have posted some interesting thoughts, if you plan on banging up the body and have long arms(I like this guy's comment), go over kill. For most of the people on this forum, stock e-lockers with some gears and stock birfs and stock axles will all they ever need, even with 37's.
As for the few, they will need all the goodies, like detroits or ARB's. They will need the Chrome moly stuff. I have built a lot of trucks for customers that are over kill, because that is what they want, not what they need. Go figure. The carrier on the high dollar stuff is stronger to not allow as much deflection as the stock e-locker. Which in some situations(deflection that is), will hurt the ring and pinion. As for the axle twisting, if a very small % will sway your opinion, then so be it(becasue not to many people have twisted a spline and usually only on big tires(bigger than 37's) with lots of throttle and bad situations).

My 80 has a ton of miles both on the highway and off the highway. In the past(but not recent past) I have wheeled my junk hard and easy. I have mostly used 35" and then stuck on the Swamper bias ply's 36 -13-16" for the hard stuff. I wheel a very heavy truck(close to 6500 lbs) all the time. A heavy tire that stick quite well to the stuff and motors through the mud. This should be a combonation that would break birfs and gears and twist axles. Yes I have chipped a front diff ring gear, I have broken aftermarket birfs, but not stock, nor have I twisted a rear axle. Guess it is just luck.
My truck has been through a lot with out twisting an axle, sure it would suck if I ever had, because the axle housing would need to be cut to get the axle out. But this is fairly rare.
As for the chromo moly rear axles(if that is your choice), get the ARP stud kit and lock tight the threads, if you are using this set up. I would not run stock studs as they streach too much under loads and as Andy stated, they may not have the right pitch for the cones.

Here is what I believe Chris:
What ever you build up on the 80 will be lots stronger than the FJC you have, If you want to tear up the body and take insane lines with out knowledge(Yep, practice make you a better wheeler). Lots of breakage occurs, because of ego and not stopping when you are stuck, trying to got out of a situation with out using your winch or stacking a rock(ego) or asking for help. Or just doing plain stupid stuff(judgement call on my part).
Kevin (toolsrus)has a good set up rig, much how I see you being in the future and how you have come across in what you want and how you want to wheel. I think Kevin has some wise stuff to say on this issue for you.
If you want to talk more, you have my number.
Robbie

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Delancy's question was about building the strongest possible axles, not what he should really do from a practical standpoint.

What he should do (in my opinion) is run it as is, and wait until it breaks, unless the plan is to do hard core trails every weekend. In average service, it could go for years or decades as it presently exists.

You may want to re-evaluate your actual use. 35 inch tires are easier on your axles and your wallet than 37 inch tires. You can go basically anywhere an 80 was meant to go on 35s.

One of the revelations I had about the 80 was wheeling with TrickyT who occasionally drops in here. He has an 80 with stock gears and an airlocker in the rear only. Small winch up front. With just a 2 1/2 inch lift. His truck goes everywhere just like that and I've never seen him need to be towed, or strapped or anything. That includes every trail but pritchert canyon in moab, all of the Rubicon, including Cadillac Hill, etc.

Anyway, it's easy to get caught up in the "build" but be realistic about what you really plan to do. If you are a "hard core" wheeler (what ever that is) you want a smaller, lighter, cheaper and more disposable vehicle than an 80. If you want to explore the US family style you have a truck capable of almost every trail now. Spend your cash on gas, and going on a trip.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Longs in front only if you plan on running part time(either with the t-case kit or removing the drive shaft and installing manual hubs). They wear too fast and will bind in the long haul. Remember Longs warranty is only if they break, not make noise.

This is not the case any longer, Bobby has changed his heat treating to make them last 60-80k miles now in AWD operation. Its been this way for almost two years now.

For those building there trucks that already have clicking birfs its the way to go because for the cost of one OEM Birf you get a set of longs (including inner shafts). I have badly worn out birfs thanks to the PO and plan to replace them with longs even though I only have 35's.

 

[Delancy]

If you want to talk more, you have my number.
Robbie

Forthcoming shortly, to figure out what else can/needs to fit in your freezer.

Thanks, Robbie.

 

[TheBigBoy]

I dont think you should wait until it breaks. Peace of mind. Rebuild the centres propperly. Longs front, Chromo stub axle (optional)chromo inner and outer hub gears, arp stud upgrade. Rear axles arent an issue, 10mm stud upgrade. And make sure bearings and axles nuts are tight during routine maitanance.

 

[Delancy]

Delancy's question was about building the strongest possible axles, not what he should really do from a practical standpoint.

I failed at communicating the confines properly, but so much valid input on this thread, still worth the query, for myself and others.

Practicality isn't synonymous with anything short of stock, and debatable even then.

What he should do (in my opinion) is run it as is, and wait until it breaks

If a clear and concise method to maximizing the current components existed, I'd do as a preliminary measure to minimize future issues, but there's little consensus and fair amount of conjecture.

Value the opinion. I believe it's the resounding, if that matters.

You may want to re-evaluate your actual use. 35 inch tires are easier on your axles and your wallet than 37 inch tires. You can go basically anywhere an 80 was meant to go on 35s.

I'm a day tripper, possible weekender, at best.

This is built lean, without all the unnecessary expo components and with weight considerations a priority. Few miles around town, miles to get to the various events, wheel with LCs and FJCs for a day, return home without issues.

Part of the reason for researching axle options was continuance of running 37s, plus it's that time in this process to regear diffs and TC, rebuild axles, so "while I'm there" might as well do it right.

Anyway, it's easy to get caught up in the "build" but be realistic about what you really plan to do. If you are a "hard core" wheeler (what ever that is) you want a smaller, lighter, cheaper and rig

I planned on getting caught up in the build long before I ever bought. The necessary diversion thing and loving it.

I want to maximize the 80 platform, not turn it into something it isn't, but not treat it like a classic station wagon, either.

Been a "hardcore" TLC fan since a kid in 1983. After a 6 year search (pre-mud, or any forum) for the perfect 40, succumbed to the FJC (which it's lineage is debatable) having owned a few pink panty Prado's along the way, now another pink panty 80 (guess I'm really a hardcore pink panty fan).

Building to keep, not beat. Yes, I realize that inevitable trail rash will occur, but not without remorse. C'est la vie, but anything is repairable.....except egos (haha, if that wasn't obvious).

A few here understand my intent, dedication, and thoroughness to this "build". I swap the fasteners on the components I touch if the FSM calls for it. Crazy? Yes, certifiably.

Buggies are a dime a dozen, here, but I don't have any desire for a trailer queen.....yet.

 

[Tapage]

Sure, it's still longs in the front. There isn't another option. .

nitro .:?

or you talk about the fact of upgraded front set in general means ..?

 

[Wheelingnoob]

nitro .:?

or you talk about the fact of upgraded front set in general means ..?

In his usage description the Nitro Birfs would not be a good idea, they are for off road use only and not intended for AWD DD or hwy use. This is straight from JT's when I was doing Birfield replacement research.

The only upgraded axles that have been made drive in AWD and last is the Longs since he changed up his heat treating on the 80 series 27 spline set.

 

[powderpig]

Right from Bobby's web site on warranty on the long fields.

" All of our products have a lifetime warranty against breakage only. The warranty is transferable to the new owner. The warranty will be voided if you weld or grind or alter it in any way. The warranty does not cover our products if another part fails and damages our part, such as a stock hub gear breaking and damaging the splines. Also if any of our products wear out, that is not covered under warranty."

Be it as it may, there is no statement that I can find that his product has changed and that it will wear longer. I would love to be wrong, so show me if you would Wheeling Noob. Does Bobby still include the paper stateing that he does on condone his chrome moly birfs will not be warrantied if run in a full time Rig?

Yes new Stock do cost more, but they last way longer than Bobbies for most people wheeling styles. and if cryo'ed right, they will last a long time as well.
More information is better for a better choice. I believe that the chrome moly birfs should only be run in a part time situation for the long life possiable of the product.
Cheers

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Right from Bobby's web site on warranty on the long fields.

" All of our products have a lifetime warranty against breakage only. The warranty is transferable to the new owner. The warranty will be voided if you weld or grind or alter it in any way. The warranty does not cover our products if another part fails and damages our part, such as a stock hub gear breaking and damaging the splines. Also if any of our products wear out, that is not covered under warranty."

Be it as it may, there is no statement that I can find that his product has changed and that it will wear longer. I would love to be wrong, so show me if you would Wheeling Noob. Does Bobby still include the paper stateing that he does on condone his chrome moly birfs will not be warrantied if run in a full time Rig?

Yes new Stock do cost more, but they last way longer than Bobbies for most people wheeling styles. and if cryo'ed right, they will last a long time as well.
More information is better for a better choice. I believe that the chrome moly birfs should only be run in a part time situation for the long life possiable of the product.
Cheers

I have e-mailed and taked to bobby a few times about it and he has said in e-mails and in phone conversations that with the change a few years ago they should last 60-80k. Yep nothing on his site about a millage warranty but thats the same with every other parts we buy for our trucks his email's and conversations on the phone also are no guarantee. For the cost of just the OEM birf ends i can get two sets of longs with inner shafts. Yes OEM is good, yes they are strong and last 200k miles but at the cost of them its really hard to justify them when there is a upgrade (in strength) for 1/2 the price. Yes you sacrafice some longevity but most upgreads do.

Bobby also rebuilds his longs (once) for $80 each when they do wear out. Its making it hard to justify getting OEM ones. I have gone over all the options from $57 "china rebuilds" to the OEM replacements for my setup and use (budget) I cant see where the down side to the longs are.

For people like me that want strength, need inner axles and new birfs with out spending $1800 the choices are very limited.

 

[powderpig]

How many miles do you have on your at this time? it will be interesting to see if these new birf's will last that many miles before a rebuild. Good luck with them. I will not put them in a customers truck unless it is a part time rig, just not worth it.

 

[sleeoffroad]

RE: Twisting axles

Is there an anticipated lifespan approach to proactively prevent?
If we're talking an inspection timeframe, would it be years?

You are not going to know until it is too late and you try to remove the axle and it won't come out. Lot's of good info shared here, yes you have to beat on the truck to get it to twist, but then again, you wanted bulletproof axles.

Can it be avoided with careful wheeling, minimizing tire spin etc etc, but for bulletproof, that design simply does not cut it.

 

[lumpy70]

I asked some friends about this yesterday as it seem so to be only word of mouth and not listed on his site, however Bobby did post this:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=5557051&postcount=16

Basically:
Yes they used to be for off road only. Now they are a little bit harder so they will wear longer. 4340 chromoly can wear as good as anything else if you treat them right with the rock well hardness. Now you can use them for your daily driver, but they are still not as hard as stock CV. Ours are half the price as stock ones. Ours can be rebuilt. These are the only ones made in the US.
CV unlimited and the others are made in China."

 

[Camino]

80seriesnut, we have stock elocker axels and stock gears with 315's, on our '92 and have been over plenty of rock gardens with no breakage (rear elocker does not function). So essentially, we have been running with just a front locker. Rubicon twice, Hell Hole, etc. We just go slow, no bouncing or high RPM's. It still drives quiet and smooth on the highway. Don't be afraid...just careful! L.B.

 

[Delancy]

but then again, you wanted bulletproof axles.

A poor choice of words on my part, Christo, I admit. A little sarcastic, which wasn't evident.

I know there's no such thing as infallibility.

I see the reasoning and believe that abandoning the e locker is the best means, from merely a repair ability standpoint, if for no other. The speed of engagement/disengagement over the OEs is secondary to, but another benefit that I didn't realize until recently.

Obviously, a built housing would be the best route, but my opinion would be building a buggy would be more effective, if going to that degree. My opinion, nothing more, and not the direction I see myself heading anytime soon.

In retrospect, I made a mistake purchasing
elocked, even after researching the pros and cons for 9 months. At the time, I was delusional, caught between a pseudo restoration and a wheeler. By restoration, simply refurbishing as the Toyota intended originally, with suspension and other modifications for fundamental performance gains.

The path is clearer after a recent outing, but maintaining the elockers, for now. Doing all possible to strengthen what can be,and learning how to operate within the confines of the platform.

Disappointing end to my initiation and involvement on this thread I know, but lots of good information for others, so I know not a total loss or wasted space on the server.

It'll be an opportunity for the "we told you so" post in the future, should I fail.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

How many miles do you have on your at this time? it will be interesting to see if these new birf's will last that many miles before a rebuild. Good luck with them. I will not put them in a customers truck unless it is a part time rig, just not worth it.

I have 267kms on mine (155k miles) the truck was not maintained when I got it and lost all its moly years before I got it. Not axles shafts have 3mm deep groves on the seal surface and both birfs click badly on both sides with the slightest turn under power. I rebuilt the front end once and did what was suggested and swapped side still just as bad after the rebuild and fresh moly. I wish the PO had believed in maintainece but its not the case so I am left with replacing inner and outers on my truck.

In my situation and with the amount of driving I do a year (10k miles) I think the longs will be fine and the added strength will be a nice cherry on top. Even if they only last 50k miles before a rebuild that's fine it would be a 100k mile service life. At my rate they would more than pay for them selves in that time (10 years).

I'm not saying its the best option for everyone, nor am I down playing the proven strength and life span of OEM. I'm simply trying to correct a belief that Longs are only good in part time rigs and not for road use at all.

 

[Corbet]

Longs last half as long as OEM and cost half as much $. That's a no brainer. It's not like we are not all in there doing PM every 60K or so anyway. When my OEMs wear out its longs for me with the full time and DD it.

Typed poorly from my iPhone using IH8MUD