Big Fuel Tank

[cody c]

i share your concern but gotta say that my tank has stayed put for the last eight years w/o any signs of fatigue. I used high quality riv nuts and a GIANT riv nut tool from J.O. King and so far so good. Lots of washboards, wheeling trips, drop offs etc so far and knock on wood, she's holding. Heck, the half mile road to my house is full of washboards.

Just to be clear, the total weight is 200lbs (assuming 8lb/gal of petrol x 25g) so the straps are supporting 100lbs each and each end is supporting 50lbs. I guess when you look at it that way, 50lbs per rivnut is not a big deal if you have quality nuts.

Maybe Ill look for better quality rivnuts. Ive just been using aluminum ones in the past.

Despite calgary being such an industrial city (supply and support for the oil patch and one of the buisiest economies in the west Id think) we dont have access to some of the great supplies/suppliers that you have. i.e. no mcmaster-carr's here nor will they sell to canadians unless they run a buisness account.

As well the fastener/bolt supply outfits dont have access to everything their warehouses south of the border do. So sometimes you really gotta hunt for a nut or a bolt....

 

[alia176]

What, no McMaster Carr? Crap, it's time to move out of the country Seriously, that's credulous to say the least.

Alright, here's the info on my rivnut tool and hardware in case anyone else wants to follow my route:

J.O. King Inc
email: sales@king-fasterners.com
770-751-1875

1265 Old Alpharetta Road
Alpharetta, Georgia 30202

1) Tool C-722-37/16
2) RIVNUT S37-115 (steel, not ALUM)

For my Canadian brothers, if it helps, drop ship the tools/hardware to my house and I can send it to you once you instruct me on the process. I bet if there are couple of you in Canada, this tool can be passed around to help with the cost.

 

[matt49]

the law?

just food for thought. i work in law enforcment and can write you a 57$ ticket everyday for no mudflaps, tires sticking out etc and bumpers and its all well in good, but i believe george's point is when it comes to insurance and liabilty and the "what if" factor a gravity tank is dangerous. I see 100\s of serious collisions a year most property damage, some minor injuries and some fatals. Never once have i attended a scene and cited someone for a aftermarket bumper or mudflaps etc as its subjective to the cause of the collision. I believe and support george in his point of view as such that a gravity fed tank is illegal for environmental purposes, spill hazard and many other factors i won't get into. I agree you may not intend or even build a mickey mouse job and your plan may be thought out and well engineered but thank the many idiots that have ruined it for you.

There is a difference liabilty wise attending a fatal collision and if a vehicle was crumpled because another vehicle is running an arb bumper and killed multiple occupants and attending a scene where a collision occurred and a non factory fuel setup is leaking, caught on fire or heaven forbid exploded. And yes ive seen this happen. Many a rig pigs up here modify there vehicle just like we do but i believe for the law enforcment side of things there is a huge difference criminally to civil liability and a modified fuel setup opens the door to criminal negligence; up here in the great white north here anyway

I believe george is just looking out for you and suggesting you go another route and id say the same, you can see my sig line and i have a modifed 80 but i went the factory route and had it inspected as such to cover myself from liability.

laws are subjective and case law changes constantly

Id be interested to see your set up if you continue but i hate the possibility of good people getting put through the system if anything where ever to happen

So are; removing catalytic converters, tampering with EGR, bumper heights, tires sticking out past fenders, removal of mudflaps, no crumple zone bumpers, bumpers not designed for pedestrian impact, not venting through charcoal canister, dummy load O2 sensors, driving over the speed limit, etc, but you just like 90% of the people on this board have broken the law and done so willingly. I hate when people get all law high and mighty.

Seriously, in this case we're talking about a WHOLE bunch of fuel and installs that will be done by folk that may cut corners.

My POINT is that a failure of the fuel system plumbing could be a lot more catastrophic to you and others than a removed mudflap or EGR system or bumper etc.

I'm not that big all the stupid little laws, but in this case there's a pretty good reason to NOT gravity feed volatile fuels.

So as I wrote, FEEL FREE TO DO WHATEVER YOU WANT...

cheers,
george.

No worries, I gave it in the post that you took issue with as well

Some folk are not aware that it is illegal at least in the US (and for a good reason). Some folk aren't aware that a gravity fuel system can have serious failure modes if a hose fails, hose clamp lets go etc. I suppose none of us have had a PHH fail or other lines fail in our vehicles... I PRESUME if we have a thread in a public forum it would be a good idea to provide all the pros/cons for various options, maybe I'm mistaken.

Given that any subtank install involves a bunch of fabrication work to install, it seems counter intuitive to me why one would purposely engineer in the potential for a hard failure mode.

I installed my oem subtank many moons ago and was happy to have a fuel transfer system along with a solenoid valve (all oem) designed to prevent syphoning/gravity feed of fuel etc. The factory design was well thought out and implemented, I guess toyota doesn't want its customers to have a pinto experience.

cheers,
george.

 

[scottryana]

Matt,

I appreciate what sounds like a very sincere reply, but I think that it is misdirected.

I understand that the belief is a gravity system is more dangerous than a 22 year old factory system.... I don't believe that for one minute. I have seen OEM tanks rusted and leaking through, so digging though a salvage yard for an old gas tank that might be suitable for the application is just as "mickey mouse" to me.

As for legality of the OEM system, who is to say that the reason Toyota didn't bring it to the US is because they felt it could cause in issue with the overly sensitive, lawsuit happy society that we live in? I feel if someone wants to sue anyone of us for any of the modifications we have done to our trucks it is within their rights, it is up to us as individuals to take that burden of modification and decide to what level we find acceptable.

Just food for thought but in a serious accident what makes a regular tank any less susceptible to rupture than a gravity fed tank? The OEM systems are not racing cells there are no bladders or foam inside.

I am still waiting on my dual filler neck to be shipped and I might change my mind once it arrives. I am leaning more to the side of just having a new primary tank made in a larger size.

just food for thought. i work in law enforcment and can write you a 57$ ticket everyday for no mudflaps, tires sticking out etc and bumpers and its all well in good, but i believe george's point is when it comes to insurance and liabilty and the "what if" factor a gravity tank is dangerous. I see 100\s of serious collisions a year most property damage, some minor injuries and some fatals. Never once have i attended a scene and cited someone for a aftermarket bumper or mudflaps etc as its subjective to the cause of the collision. I believe and support george in his point of view as such that a gravity fed tank is illegal for environmental purposes, spill hazard and many other factors i won't get into. I agree you may not intend or even build a mickey mouse job and your plan may be thought out and well engineered but thank the many idiots that have ruined it for you.

There is a difference liabilty wise attending a fatal collision and if a vehicle was crumpled because another vehicle is running an arb bumper and killed multiple occupants and attending a scene where a collision occurred and a non factory fuel setup is leaking, caught on fire or heaven forbid exploded. And yes ive seen this happen. Many a rig pigs up here modify there vehicle just like we do but i believe for the law enforcment side of things there is a huge difference criminally to civil liability and a modified fuel setup opens the door to criminal negligence; up here in the great white north here anyway

I believe george is just looking out for you and suggesting you go another route and id say the same, you can see my sig line and i have a modifed 80 but i went the factory route and had it inspected as such to cover myself from liability.

laws are subjective and case law changes constantly

Id be interested to see your set up if you continue but i hate the possibility of good people getting put through the system if anything where ever to happen

 

[matt49]

I absolutely agree with you, and what i was getting at was the liability of it all. In this world civil liability is everywhere and can be in anything you do, as such like my oem system,; i had it inspected for peace of mind criminally and civilly, Im more just hoping to demonstrate the risk involved and more my concern is the criminal element and liability you could face if somthing were to fail. Failures happen with anything man made, and i just dont want any cruiserhead facing such prosecution.

All in all im crious about what you propose to do and will be following this thread as im always looking for mods and fab work intrigues me

best of luck, and im sincere in saying that and just wanted to give some impartial input after goin gthrough this thread and shed some clarity on the "what if\'

Matt,

I appreciate what sounds like a very sincere reply, but I think that it is misdirected.

I understand that the belief is a gravity system is more dangerous than a 22 year old factory system.... I don't believe that for one minute. I have seen OEM tanks rusted and leaking through, so digging though a salvage yard for an old gas tank that might be suitable for the application is just as "mickey mouse" to me.

As for legality of the OEM system, who is to say that the reason Toyota didn't bring it to the US is because they felt it could cause in issue with the overly sensitive, lawsuit happy society that we live in? I feel if someone wants to sue anyone of us for any of the modifications we have done to our trucks it is within their rights, it is up to us as individuals to take that burden of modification and decide to what level we find acceptable.

Just food for thought but in a serious accident what makes a regular tank any less susceptible to rupture than a gravity fed tank? The OEM systems are not racing cells there are no bladders or foam inside.

I am still waiting on my dual filler neck to be shipped and I might change my mind once it arrives. I am leaning more to the side of just having a new primary tank made in a larger size.

 

[maclarentc]

Nope, we only got the 1 configuration. All Gas powered 1FZs, all automatic, all full-time 4wd. No subtank option for us...

We get screwed here, no good options on anything. I personally think its all the big three pressuring the gov. to limit what can be imported here.. Sucks but most good options can be found on Canadian rigs and importing them isn't always that hard depending on the emmissions laws in your state. Hell I didnt even know there were manual, fully selectable 2x to 4x 80 series until a year or 2 after I bought my first one.

 

[Douglas S]

We get screwed here, no good options on anything. I personally think its all the big three pressuring the gov. to limit what can be imported here.. Sucks but most good options can be found on Canadian rigs and importing them isn't always that hard depending on the emmissions laws in your state. Hell I didnt even know there were manual, fully selectable 2x to 4x 80 series until a year or 2 after I bought my first one.

These rigs you speak of in Canada have all been imported from Japan. They need to be older than 25 years for you to import them into the states.

 

[maclarentc]

These rigs you speak of in Canada have all been imported from Japan. They need to be older than 25 years for you to import them into the states.

is that 25 year part on the Canadian side or the States side. And are the Canadian options the same as the states or do you get diesel, manual etc. options from the dealer?

 

[Douglas S]

is that 25 year part on the Canadian side or the States side. And are the Canadian options the same as the states or do you get diesel, manual etc. options from the dealer?

80 Series Cruiser sold new in Canada were only sold as the LX450 and are essentially identical to what was available new in the USA.

However, we are able to bring over vehicles from Japan when they are 15 years old. This means that we have access to diesel, manual 80 series (and other) Land Cruisers that aren't yet available in the USA.

Unfortunately, I have yet to see a Japanese import 80 with a factory sub tank.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

is that 25 year part on the Canadian side or the States side. And are the Canadian options the same as the states or do you get diesel, manual etc. options from the dealer?

Its the US side, its 15 years for Canada. We did not get any Land Cruisers in Canada after 1987 afk. We did get the 80 series for two years in 96-97 in the form of a Lexus LX450. So we got a hole lot less than you in the 90`s.

 

[greentruck]

Not to beat a dead horse

On the issue of why the prohibition on gravity-fed tanks, as a matter of policy it has less to do with liability and performance under accident conditions than it has to do with environmental concerns. For the most part, the idea is to limit the loss of fuel into the environment under various fuel system failure scenarios. Assuming no failure in the tank itself, using top-draw tanks limits the extent of loss prior to repair to a small amount.

It's not only auxiliary tanks, either. It all tanks.

True, you can get a hole in a tank and lose all the fuel. Stuff happens. But for the vast majority of failures, which are things like broken lines and bad or improperly installed connectors, using top draw tanks does limit pollution.

Another factor is making repairs simpler and safer. Fuel leak? Who wants to work on a nearly full tank that will keep losing fuel until empty in a gravity-fed scenario? Sure, you can drain the tank, then bring it in, but it's a whole lot simpler just to take the line loose on a tank you know won't puke gas all over the garage floor.

So the ban on gravity-fed tanks is something like a parachute is for a pilot. You hope you never need it, but if you do, it's a whole lot better to have a parachute strapped to you, than one of those Acme-made, Coyote-approved anvils.

 

[alia176]

Back at the ranch...

A'right dudes, enough chit/chat - let's get down to bidnezz

I went to the local upullit yard yesterday to start the aux tank investigation. The F150's in my yard are from the early to mid '90s and they don't have rear tanks. The Ford Econoline vans have a decent looking but deep rectangular tanks. I only played with passenger fill tanks.

The Cherokee tanks look more promising. They have a nice slope, fairly flat on top and use straps for a mounting solution. The inline pump/sending solution is fairly straightforward to access from the front of the tank. The skid plate is made of plastic is worth nothing. You folks already have the dimensions, so I won't bored you with that but a pic or two are shown with a tape measure in the pics.

Next up is the fuel tank for a Mitsu Montero LS. I noticed that the Sport models have side tanks but the LS (LWB?) models have rear mounted tanks. These tanks are FLANGE mounted, meaning no straps are used. Only three locations are use for mounting: two forward, one rear (at the rear bumper). The dimensions look very promising so I grabbed it.

First up is a 1990 Montero LS showing how it is mounted in the vehicle (caved in). As you'll notice, there is roughly two inches of clearance between the top of the tank and under the rear cargo area.

This pic shows you the fill hose angle up to the filler neck (passenger side).

 

[alia176]

More pics...

Next up is a 1997 Montero LS tank sitting inside and outside the vehicle (uncaved). Both Monteros have the same tanks and mounting solutions. Of course there's a freaking hole but this is the only specimen that didn't get ruined by the yard's method of supporting each vehicle. Normally, they put the vehicles on three supports: two rims under the front area and one rim under the rear fuel tank Consequently, most vehicles with rear tanks are caved in due to this. Still, I took a whole bunch of pics for your amusement.

 

[greentruck]

Ali,
Nice find on the Montero tank. That does look promising. I think it's something like 24.3 gallons, a happy medium.

For my own amusement, I'm now actually thinking about going with the ol' OEM subtank, oddly enough. I've learned enough so I'm sure i can plumb whatever I come up with, so that got me thinking about our rig and how we use it. It's set-up as a sleeper and we intend to do a lot of road camping with it over the next few years. We drop the tailgate, add an awning and basically have bedroom and kitchen right together.

If the spare comes out from underneath, then it goes on a new rear bumper/tire carrier, which will forever be in the way when camping, even when swung out. In a way, it's less in camp and more access along the way with the fridge. Plus close to another $2k in cash for hardware.

I'll mostly be towing the M101 CDN and definitely plan to add a tank to it, so that gets me part way there for total fuel. I still want the extra range of some additional tankage, so something's going under the cargo area eventually. Soooo.

Hmmm. Still thinking on this
Anyone comes up with a spare 80 subtank as a result of mods, let me know, I may just take it off your hands.

In the meantime, I'm going to keep all my irons in the fire here, as I'm sure there's going to be some interesting prohects. Eventually I'll be rolling up my sleeves on something along the lines we've been discussing. Carry on.

 

[86tuning]

Problem with the factory tank and the spare underneath is that you can't install a spare tire leveling kit.

Me, I'd want around 10-15 gal and have it tucked up really high.

 

[greentruck]

Brian,
Yeah, the spare hangs low, but I can live with that for a couple of years. The one place where I'll have some regrets is Colorado.

By the time the wiring and plumbing are done, swapping tanks for greater capacity will be easy when it gets to that point.

One more cost factor I forgot to mention is that adding a tire carrier is going to require extending the trailer drawbar. I have plans for that, too, maybe even as soon as doing the spare tank install. So delaying moving the spare kind of depends on how soon I can get other issues squared away.

So many projects, so little time.

I thought I'd throw it out there, because it makes an important point about how one approaches adding fuel capacity. There's tradeoffs in just about any mod. One has to be sure of one's goals to end up with a good solution that doesn't create other problems. I think the thread has covered the pros and cons of most configurations of tanks, but with a range from 13 to 45 gallons, the end results are going to be pretty different.

 

[alia176]

Mike,

You're smart in thinking of the future PITA factor with the spare living on the rear bumper. I too have a distaste for the spare hanging out on the rear bumper. It may look cool but it simply gets in the way of activities lots of times. Unless there is a need for a 35" tire upgrade, I prefer to keep it under the rig. Spare in the factory location is also very wife friendly, if you know what I mean.

Hopefully, next week, I'll drop the subtank in the '96 and start the mock up process with the Montero tank.

 

[86tuning]

Yep you both have excellent points. I've currently got a 315 tucked and leveled under the bum and I like it there for street use. I'm gonna hate it on the rear bumper also. Especially when I tow and launch the boat. Oh well. Might have to leave it at home all the time . I still want the extra gas capacity, 20L steel NATO gas cans are awkward to transfer into the main tank.

 

[alia176]

Yep you both have excellent points. I've currently got a 315 tucked and leveled under the bum and I like it there for street use. I'm gonna hate it on the rear bumper also. Especially when I tow and launch the boat. Oh well. Might have to leave it at home all the time . I still want the extra gas capacity, 20L steel NATO gas cans are awkward to transfer into the main tank.

I don't know about where your 20L tank resides but I had mine on the U.S. driver side of the cargo area. When it was time for a fill-up, I'd simply use a jiggle hose through the sliding windows to fill the main tank. This location made it easy for the gas station fill-up (again, through the window) and fuel transferring.

Still, if this fun process can be avoided all together, even better.

Getting back to the Montero tanks, I emailed a buddy who owns a '90 LS about some of the specifics like sending unit resistance range, empty signal, in tank fuel pump pressure, EWD, etc.

 

[alia176]

Montero tank update

Got some info form my buddy with the Monty:

Fuel sender values- Low/Empty, 3 ohms + / - 2 ohms.
Full, 110 ohms + / - 7 ohms-

'92-95 show ground circuit switch at sender for empty/ reserve light

------------------------

Below are some pics of the '97 with a 2.5" lift and 285 tires. The spare tire is approx 13" from the tire to the ground (measured at rear of vehicle), 10.5" from tire to ground (measured toward the front of the vehicle). The spare tire holder has been raised by the washer stacking method, approx 1.5" or so.

The Monty tank sits 15.5" from the bottom of the tank to the ground (measured at front and rear). As you can see from the pics, lots of clearance all around, even where the exhaust runs. The exhaust is at the same location in the Monty as well.