Another 2013 head gasket goes kaput

[bloc]

One more thought.. if we go by the varnish on the plunger of the passenger side tensioner, there is a whole lot of throw left. That tells me my chains aren't very stretched compared to what toyota thought was within acceptable design limits.

 

[dudemancool1904]

At risk of the oil/BITOG weirdos get a sniff of this, what oil/viscosity were you running? Looks great inside.

 

[bloc]

At risk of the oil/BITOG weirdos get a sniff of this, what oil/viscosity were you running? Looks great inside.

Thanks!

Original buyer did 5k changes at the dealer which I assume were TGMO 0w-20. That was until 105k. I kept that up until about 150, at which point I switched to Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 on the same schedule. After about 200k I moved to Mobil1 5w-30 because the rebates on PP got much harder to find.

Before all of this I was considering a few changes with protect & restore, but based on the condition and lack of varnish I’m gonna hold off.

 

[Zill]

Thanks!

Original buyer did 5k changes at the dealer which I assume were TGMO 0w-20. That was until 105k. I kept that up until about 150, at which point I switched to Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 on the same schedule. After about 200k I moved to Mobil1 5w-30 because the rebates on PP got much harder to find.

Before all of this I was considering a few changes with protect & restore, but based on the condition and lack of varnish I’m gonna hold off.

Wait, you’re running pennzoil platinum instead of ultra platinum?

 

[bloc]

Wait, you’re running pennzoil platinum instead of ultra platinum?

Yep. Has worked great.

 

[Zill]

Yep. Has worked great.

I’ve heard even better with ultra platinum, but it’s hard to argue the regular platinum with these results.

The big difference is ultra platinum flows a bit better at cold temps.

 

[bloc]

I’ve heard even better with ultra platinum, but it’s hard to argue the regular platinum with these results.

The big difference is ultra platinum flows a bit better at cold temps.

Yeah, maybe if I lived much further north it would be worth the switch.

I personally feel between our sump volume, toyota's conservative tuning, and overall design philosophy that is relatively easy on the oil, our engines probably aren't very picky as long as they are allowed to warm up and the oil is changed often enough.

I will also admit to being tempted by the 0w-30 argument in the past, but again, pretty hard to fault anything I'm seeing inside my engine.

 

[04UZJ100]

I switched to HPL 5W30 and all cold start timing chain rattle has gone away. It was almost guaranteed on mornings in the low 30s and below. It’s now gone. Completely. Still points to an oiling “component” of the timing chain slap.

 

[gasman4u]

I switched to HPL 5W30 and all cold start timing chain rattle has gone away. It was almost guaranteed on mornings in the low 30s and below. It’s now gone. Completely. Still points to an oiling “component” of the timing chain slap.

HPL is some GOOD stuff. I'm on a 0W30 kick right now and will fully convert to the church of 5W30 at my next oil change. HPL FTMFW

 

[kcjaz]

I do suspect installing the heads with them will be interesting.

I’ve only done one engine overhaul that turned into a rebuild on my 350 swapped FJ 60. The PO had done the swap and used studs on the heads. All I remember, is that even with the engine out of the truck and on a stand, it was very difficult getting the heads off and then back on. Removal was the worst part. You can’t really pry the head off. The heads have to lift straight out and go back straight down.

 

[bloc]

What flavor of HPL are you guys running?

I switched to HPL 5W30 and all cold start timing chain rattle has gone away. It was almost guaranteed on mornings in the low 30s and below. It’s now gone. Completely. Still points to an oiling “component” of the timing chain slap.

Thanks for the info. Did you have the light persistent rattle or the very dramatic one that usually goes away when the engine builds oil pressure?

I’ve only done one engine overhaul that turned into a rebuild on my 350 swapped FJ 60. The PO had done the swap and used studs on the heads. All I remember, is that even with the engine out of the truck and on a stand, it was very difficult getting the heads off and then back on. Removal was the worst part. You can’t really pry the head off. The heads have to lift straight out and go back straight down.

As I game this out I'm pretty sure I'll lay the heads down then thread the studs in after that, measuring depth of each to ensure they are all fully threaded in. Your experience is exactly what I was worried about.

 

[bloc]

My injectors came back from RC Injection today, with a printout of their performance before and after cleaning. Basically.. they really needed it.

For context new injectors are $220 each retail and about $150 each on the parts sites. This service ran ~$310 total and was less than a week including shipping from central texas to their facility in CA, and back home. No affiliation, just a happy customer.

I did notice one bank's LTFT's were +7% a few months ago and had planned to do the injectors at some point. The head gasket forced my hand. When I pulled them I didn't keep track of their prior positions, but upon return they are all numbered.

Optimal flow from these is 350cc. At 235k miles they ranged from 342 down to 283, with an average of about 317. Additionally the spray patterns were not great, mostly scoring "fair" but some even dripping. After cleaning all eight ranged from 349 to 351 with excellent patterns.

This tells me they are fundamentally good parts but do need some maintenance as mileage piles up. For those of us using more fuel (IE towing heavy/often) this could be even more important.

Not a part of this project but when I did the LS swap into my 80 I also had the injectors cleaned. Those were ~130k mile GM injectors and from memory while they also could justify it they weren't as bad as these in the "before" state.

Another interesting detail.. I didn't realize this but each injector has a small filter built into the inlet. This may explain why having a fuel filter isn't as important anymore. RC replaced all of these with new parts, including all new o-rings and lower insulator grommets (though my gasket set had these as well.) I'll try to get some detail pics of the old filters tomorrow.

 

[dudemancool1904]

RC is the tops: basically every so cal shop uses them. They did the DI injectors on my Mazdaspeed 3 with same day turnaround. Highly recommend them.

 

[gasman4u]

What flavor of HPL are you guys running?



Thanks for the info. Did you have the light persistent rattle or the very dramatic one that usually goes away when the engine builds oil pressure?



As I game this out I'm pretty sure I'll lay the heads down then thread the studs in after that, measuring depth of each to ensure they are all fully threaded in. Your experience is exactly what I was worried about.

HPL premium plus passenger car in 0w30 for now and soon to be 5w30.

Tbf, I’m likely overpaying since I don’t do extended oil change intervals. Their add pack is the same, but base stock is different with their premium passenger car oil vs premium plus. Either one is a solid choice in our rigs imo. Your pics look CLEAN though. HTH.

 

[Moby]

Another +1 for RC. They did a great job with the injectors from my 2FE.

 

[linuxgod]

My injectors came back from RC Injection today, with a printout of their performance before and after cleaning. Basically.. they really needed it.

For context new injectors are $220 each retail and about $150 each on the parts sites. This service ran ~$310 total and was less than a week including shipping from central texas to their facility in CA, and back home. No affiliation, just a happy customer.

I did notice one bank's LTFT's were +7% a few months ago and had planned to do the injectors at some point. The head gasket forced my hand. When I pulled them I didn't keep track of their prior positions, but upon return they are all numbered.

Optimal flow from these is 350cc. At 235k miles they ranged from 342 down to 283, with an average of about 317. Additionally the spray patterns were not great, mostly scoring "fair" but some even dripping. After cleaning all eight ranged from 349 to 351 with excellent patterns.

This tells me they are fundamentally good parts but do need some maintenance as mileage piles up. For those of us using more fuel (IE towing heavy/often) this could be even more important.

Not a part of this project but when I did the LS swap into my 80 I also had the injectors cleaned. Those were ~130k mile GM injectors and from memory while they also could justify it they weren't as bad as these in the "before" state.

Another interesting detail.. I didn't realize this but each injector has a small filter built into the inlet. This may explain why having a fuel filter isn't as important anymore. RC replaced all of these with new parts, including all new o-rings and lower insulator grommets (though my gasket set had these as well.) I'll try to get some detail pics of the old filters tomorrow.

View attachment 4093113

Interesting that #8 was different. Coolant cleaning it?

 

[2001LC]

I'm a big advocate, for sending FI, out to be service.

I'm also advocate, for fuel cleaning additives. Like 44k, Chevron Techron, seafoam, etc..

LTFT 7%: Replace fuel pump, fuel filter, clean fuel tank. Added 2 cans 44k to full tank.. LTFT 3%.

 

[Sajan]

My injectors came back from RC Injection today, with a printout of their performance before and after cleaning. Basically.. they really needed it.

Nice. How many miles did you have on them before you cleaned it?
Did you ever run any techron or other PEA cleaners occasionally?

I got a 100K on my 2018. Wondering whether to clean them.

 

[bloc]

Interesting that #8 was different. Coolant cleaning it?

Their number 8 didn’t coincide with mine, as I didn’t keep track of the injectors when I removed them.

So, maybe?

I'm a big advocate, for sending FI, out to be service.

I'm also advocate, for fuel cleaning additives. Like 44k, Chevron Techron, seafoam, etc..

LTFT 7%: Replace fuel pump, fuel filter, clean fuel tank. Added 2 cans 44k to full tank.. LTFT 3%.

View attachment 4093648View attachment 4093647
View attachment 4093649View attachment 4093650View attachment 4093651View attachment 4093652

I changed my fuel pump as PM around 195k miles. In the process I was frankly shocked how little debris was in the tank and filter sock. This vehicle lived in Tennessee then central Texas.. and I tend to fill up at high-traffic stations. Not sure what else would contribute to so little contamination in the system.

Nice. How many miles did you have on them before you cleaned it?
Did you ever run any techron or other PEA cleaners occasionally?

I got a 100K on my 2018. Wondering whether to clean them.

~235k miles. I used to run some Techron but not often.

 

[bloc]

Today's lesson: be patient when it matters

I chose the shop I did because they seemed to know what they were doing and only needed a week for the work, vs the 2 weeks and hour+ drive each way of the shop that came recommended.

I'm not happy with the work they did on my heads, and if I want to buy new ones I have until tomorrow before one of the 25% off sales ends. So I don't have a lot of time to try and figure out whether spending the money is warranted. Plus I have concerns about whether they can ship cylinder heads and not ruin them.. (now having flashbacks on being patient).

Even if I don't order with the sale, my local dealer (who I have a good relationship with and generally hooks me up on pricing when they can) can't get heads quickly.

I dropped the heads off with instructions to resurface them, taking as little material off as possible, and hot tank them to clean everything up. They said they ended up taking 3 thousandths off. While I'm confident they are flat, the surface texture appears to be something that was acceptable in the days of graphite head gaskets but my concern is it's not smooth enough for our modern MLS gaskets. They told me they "haven't had any complaints".. but I'm also reading there is more to it. This is from Fel-Pro's website:

Roughness Average (Ra) is the average micro-inch measurement of peak-to-valley roughness height of a flat surface. The lower the Ra number, the smoother the surface. Fel-Pro recommends a finish of 60 to 80 Ra for cast iron cylinder heads and blocks and 50 to 60 Ra for aluminum.

Fel-Pro uses proprietary head gasket coatings and facing materials designed to fill in minor surface imperfections and allow for improved sealing on imperfect surfaces found in the repair environment. OEM MLS gaskets work well on new, flat, clean castings, since they require a very smooth surface finish, usually 20-30 Ra or less.

Fel-Pro’s PermaTorque MLS head gaskets are designed specifically for the repair environment and use a specialized coating that accommodates finishes as rough as 80 Ra.

I can't say I trust Fel-Pro enough to run their gasket.. considering I want to get another 250k out of this engine.

Additionally the hot tank job was terrible, and there are shavings from the surfacing in all of the intake ports. I can clean that stuff up but is indicative of their lack of professionalism.

Pics of the current and original surface

Original. Doesn't look very different in the images but you can feel it with a fingertip.

There is a special meter to quantify surface roughness but they are quite expensive. And as I said I'm up against a deadline that would save me ~$700 if I can catch this sale.

On top of all of that I'm stuck at work for 48 hours so I can't take them to that dealership where my friends in the parts department could put me in touch with one of their master techs.

I did message @clrussell about his resurfaced heads and he said he just laid them down on a factory gasket and hasn't had issues. It was a "typical machine shop surface."

Hive mind? Am I worked up about nothing? Any thoughts @Taco2Cruiser or @GrouchyTech ?