Another 2013 head gasket goes kaput

[bloc]

Some of you may have seen my post in the "what did you do this week" thread.. starting this one to document the failure mode and repair process, as well as open to discussion on this issue.

A few days ago I was backing my 2013 cruiser out of the garage after sitting overnight and noticed something of a stutter while backing. Pretty clearly a misfire. No codes, it went away quickly, but I have learned over the years not to ignore stuff like this. As the day of errands and running around went on it didn't come back. Next morning? Misfire. Also cleared as the engine warmed up. Still no CEL or drivability issues. I have to admit I was already getting nervous.

For those that don't understand the mechanism.. the idea is that when the vehicle sits for a while after running the pressure in the cooling system can push coolant into the combustion chamber, which causes the misfire on the next start. Restarting while the engine is still warm doesn't give enough time to allow appreciable coolant into the CC so those starts seem normal.

I wasn't noticing appreciable coolant loss, and water temps were normal.

Vehicle has approx 233k miles on it, with the first 105k being in Tennessee with the original owner, at which point I bought it and brought it to central Texas. It got a new (but old design) radiator and coolant when I got it home due to the well-known but not yet leaking crack, coolant change at approx 165k, and again at 201k when I changed the radiator again for the new design. Approx 50k of the ~130 I put on this vehicle have been roadtrips at freeway speed, solo or with one passenger, generally pretty lightly loaded. I did have 285/70R17s and kings for a while but otherwise no external mods to increase loads on the engine.

Unless there was an overheat event before I bought it this rig hasn't had one. Valley plate hasn't been an issue.. as I get it apart I am seeing signs of a very small leak but the coolant never got close to low during my ownership.


Three days after noticing the misfire I had time to drop a borescope into the cylinders to look for coolant. I let it sit overnight then started pulling the plugs from the front of the driver's side..

7 cylinders in things looked great. The last plug to pull was the difficult #8.. this is the one under the heater hoses on the passenger side. Sure enough..

Well, s***.

 

[bloc]

So I know I need a head gasket at least. Since I have it apart I'll do the other side as well.

I'm hopeful that without any overheating events and catching the issue so early the block and head are fine. I'll use the opportunity to change the slightly noisy timing chain tensioner (and the other side), fix the slight timing cover oil leak this rig has had since I got it, plus install the starter and motor mounts I've had on the shelf for a minute. Probably also do valve springs to eliminate that possibility. And a bunch of other odds & ends.

This will be a big job but I'm fortunate to have most of the tools and experience to tackle it myself. I have already started stripping the engine.. hoping to have the PS head off tomorrow or saturday to get a straight edge on that and the block to figure out just how expensive this will end up being.

 

[KLF]

Oof... Godspeed young man... Looking forward to the photos, but very sorry you're having to do this. I'm sure we will all learn a lot from your expertise.

 

[rexington14]

Sucks. If you haven't drained the oil yet please consider sending a used oil sample for analysis. It would be interesting and perhaps helpful to others to see if the lab was able to detect any coolant in the oil for this particular failure scenario.

 

[bloc]

As for why I say "another 2013".. this appears to be kindof a thing. Far from common, but over a bunch of years following this section there seems to be a trend here.

A number of the HG failures I've seen couldn't rule out an overheat or not having the coolant changed on schedule, but a couple seemed to come out of the blue. Mine is in the latter category.

Toyota updated the HG in 2014. And this seems to happen to some other engines.

Most of us have seen the TCCN video on 5.7 head gaskets, in which he alleges the coolant is going acidic and harming the HG. In another thread a number of users measured the pH of their coolant and there was very little evidence of acidity. Personally I don't know if it needs to be acidic.. if something is going on chemically to weaken the viton surface that's all it takes. And the evidence seems to be mounting.

Now head gaskets are a giant undertaking.. I couldn't go as far as recommending them be done as PM.. but I will say, coolant should probably be drained and filled more frequently than toyota recommends, and above all, if you notice a misfire, investigate it promptly to avoid the problem turning into the snowball from hell.

 

[bloc]

Sucks. If you haven't drained the oil yet please consider sending a used oil sample for analysis. It would be interesting and perhaps helpful to others to see if the lab was able to detect any coolant in the oil for this particular failure scenario.

That's a great idea, but I've already ruined that plan by tearing things apart and can't be sure coolant isn't already in the oil from my work. Besides.. I'd be surprised if none of what was in the CC didn't make it past the rings.

The big question would be what would a UOA from three months ago show?

I did have UOA about 8k ago with nothing remarkable to report.

It does seem this came up so quickly that UOA wouldn't be a reliable predictor.

 

[Zill]

Sorry to hear this happened to your cruiser.

Fingers crossed the block is not warped.

 

[rexington14]

I did have UOA about 8k ago with nothing remarkable to report.

It does seem this came up so quickly that UOA wouldn't be a reliable predictor.

I guess that's all we really need to know. 8k miles is within an oil change interval for most people. So no sure way to detect it early. And with no noticeable coolant loss it sounds like you go from everything's fine -> "oh *&$*" in an instant. The prior overheating theory being the cause of these failures has little credibility. Even if overheat did happen it occurred much too long ago - would be like claiming someone got sick in their 40s because they ate too much frozen pizza as a teenager.

I hope you don't need to think about this - but I am curious if your sentiment around changing HG as a PM changes if the flatness is determined to be out of spec. Best of luck.

 

[Supra Turbo]

Looking on the bright side, IMO quarter million miles is a damn good run for a vehicle. I'll be happy if my LC makes it to that number before needing new head gaskets.

I've dealt with a lot more BS on BMWs and other european 2010s cars with significantly (in some cases 4X-5X) less miles.

 

[bloc]

I guess that's all we really need to know. 8k miles is within an oil change interval for most people. So no sure way to detect it early. And with no noticeable coolant loss it sounds like you go from everything's fine -> "oh *&$*" in an instant. The prior overheating theory being the cause of these failures has little credibility. Even if overheat did happen it occurred much too long ago - would be like claiming someone got sick in their 40s because they ate too much frozen pizza as a teenager.

I hope you don't need to think about this - but I am curious if your sentiment around changing HG as a PM changes if the flatness is determined to be out of spec. Best of luck.

Great points, especially about any potential overheat event being so long ago.

And I guess my thought so far is if the block warped without an overheat event.. wtf is going on with these engines? How would that even happen?

All hypothetical, and should be cleared up soon.

Looking on the bright side, IMO quarter million miles is a damn good run for a vehicle. I'll be happy if my LC makes it to that number before needing new head gaskets.

I mostly agree, but it stings a little to go through all of this seemingly because I bought a specific year of an otherwise great vehicle. This just doesn’t seem up to Toyota’s standards.

And frankly it justifies many other owners being pretty uneasy.

 

[rexington14]

And I guess my thought so far is if the block warped without an overheat event.. wtf is going on with these engines? How would that even happen?

From the failed head gaskets we've seen it does seem the viton coating is the common problem. Either chemically something was wrong with it and it's not holding up as expected (being overly susceptible to acidic and/or old coolant may contribute to this), or perhaps there was a problem during the application and bonding of the coating in some model years. If in fact the head gasket was redesigned in 2014 and the failure rate drops this would seem to line up as well.

I suspect the block warping doesn't happen without overheating to some degree. And if run with a HG in this failed state it likely would run hotter than normal. Run it that way for long enough and who knows. Hopefully your block is fine. The problem here with many Toyotas is the dash gauge. Gauge may appear normal but temps actually be slightly too high but not enough to go red. Curious if you were you running a scangauge or some other digital ODB live data tool and noticed any digit increase in ECT during operation recently?

 

[Supra Turbo]

I mostly agree, but it stings a little to go through all of this seemingly because I bought a specific year of an otherwise great vehicle. This just doesn’t seem up to Toyota’s standards.

And frankly it justifies many other owners being pretty uneasy.

Understandable. We have a 2013 LC also and have zero concerns. At those miles, I would likely plan for a full engine gasket overhaul regardless.

 

[KLF]

Given the miles & age, will this be a full "engine out" rebuild, or are you just gonna do everything in situ?

I've done both, and I would probably be tempted to just yank it out, so much easier to work on a stand. But then you have the scope creep of "well, while I'm in here..."

 

[marcus clarkus]

Thanks for the updates so far. I’ll be following this thread — hopefully just for education, not for a HG repair of my own. I have a 2017

Doing a head gasket as PM still sounds absurd to me.

 

[TeCKis300]

This might not make the sting any less, but all mechanical things wear and head gasket at some higher miles is an eventuality. How many miles should we expect to be typical for 1. Land Cruiser 2. 3UR-FE 3. LC/3UR-FE in the 2013 production window...

For reference:

The 80-series is famous for it's durability. But it's also famous for the 4.5L I6 1FZ-FE to experience headgasket failure over 150k miles.

The 100-series 2UZ-FE 4.7L V8 head gaskets are much better. With headgaskets easily going over 250k miles.

There is enough history with the 3UR-FE in the Tundras to say they do typically last a long time, with many examples going over 300k miles.

So perhaps there is something going on with the 2013? Or may not?

I think we all agree overheats will be a major factor. Perhaps coolant maintenance. But what is also very much a factor is use case and perhaps even more important is heat cycles. A Tundra doing long miles on the freeway is going to have the best chance of long headgasket life. An LC doing a light of short drives with many more heat cycles may compromise a headgasket earlier than possibly even stressing use cases. Both factors in my own vehicles use.

With more data points, we'll have more clarity in time. Sorry to see this happen. Thank you for making this thread and sharing your thoughts @bloc .

 

[bloc]

5k synthetic oil changes for the win

At least from a varnish and cam wear standpoint.. this thing is doing spectacularly.

Timing cover is off too, about to pull the chains then the PS cam tower then head, lunch break first.

Glad I played tetris as a kid. The PS header is.. difficult. Had to drop the trans crossmember to drop the PS downpipe and make room for the header to come out. I even elected to do the motor mount on that side as the engine sitting a half inch lower or whatever seemed to make the header more difficult.

Also found the starter signal wire connector crumbled in my hand.. too hot of an environment.. so that'll get replaced too.

From the failed head gaskets we've seen it does seem the viton coating is the common problem. Either chemically something was wrong with it and it's not holding up as expected (being overly susceptible to acidic and/or old coolant may contribute to this), or perhaps there was a problem during the application and bonding of the coating in some model years. If in fact the head gasket was redesigned in 2014 and the failure rate drops this would seem to line up as well.

I suspect the block warping doesn't happen without overheating to some degree. And if run with a HG in this failed state it likely would run hotter than normal. Run it that way for long enough and who knows. Hopefully your block is fine. The problem here with many Toyotas is the dash gauge. Gauge may appear normal but temps actually be slightly too high but not enough to go red. Curious if you were you running a scangauge or some other digital ODB live data tool and noticed any digit increase in ECT during operation recently?

Great point about the temp gauge. No I didn't run any form of digital ECT readout, but between the full coolant, low load on the engine, and very mild temps here I'm confident it didn't get hot.

Given the miles & age, will this be a full "engine out" rebuild, or are you just gonna do everything in situ?

I've done both, and I would probably be tempted to just yank it out, so much easier to work on a stand. But then you have the scope creep of "well, while I'm in here..."

In situ. The DS header may make me regret that.. it looks significantly worse than the PS. At this point the plan is to just pull the head with the exhaust manifold still on it. But we'll see what happens.

 

[bloc]

Head is off, the typical 3UR failure between the small coolant port and cylinder 8 on the block side of the gasket.

 

[Zill]

So the passenger side was leaking?

Very odd, as it’s typically the drivers side head gasket which goes out.

 

[solarshooter]

because I bought a specific year of an otherwise great vehicle.

Dang, is it really 2013 specifically? TCCN video seemed to indicate it was anything pre-2014... Asking as the owner of a 2013 Sequoia haha. And sorry this happened to you, but it looks like you are well on your way to fixing it. Good luck!

 

[bloc]

Dang, is it really 2013 specifically? TCCN video seemed to indicate it was anything pre-2014... Asking as the owner of a 2013 Sequoia haha. And sorry this happened to you, but it looks like you are well on your way to fixing it. Good luck!

Maybe it's confirmation bias but in my decent number of years on mud it seems like there are a lot of 2013s that have this happen.

Unsure if that applies to Tundra/Sequoia platform too.. 200s seem to have more valley plate leaks than those, and that could point to some difference in the supply chain of these engines.