4" lift shackle angle - now what? (1 Viewer)

[projektdotnet]

I find that an additional 300lbs added to either end will help the ride (i used to have a skycrapper 4" before SOA)

 

[grant5127]

Okay, I got a reply from Tom at Hell Creek. Here is the e-mail he sent me:

Not many people realize it, but the Nitro shocks actually contribute lift to the vehicle, since they are gas-charged (pressurized)

Glad someone said it before Me.... that's why I went to 8000s.... those 9000 are stiff sumbitches.....

 

[jefishing]

Thanks for posting up what you found out from Tom. Tom is a great guy to deal with I would recommened him to anyone who is going to buy a lift.

 

[mr_manny]

any updates on your spring/shackle issues?

 

[FF LC FREAK]

any updates on your spring/shackle issues?

Yes, I do have an update. Sorry, I was kind of holding off waiting for better news. Basically, my shackle angle still sucks. I have attached a picture down below. You can compare it to the earlier ones in the above posts. I think it has relaxed a little bit, but not a whole lot. The rear sits almost vertical now, but the front is still pretty inverted (about 1.5" difference between top and bottom). I have been driving it quite a bit around town, and the springs are relaxing a bit. I have only been able to get up into the hills twice in the last month, but I have tried to bounce the springs quite a bit while I've been up there. It has helped the ride, just not the shackle angle.

I have come to the conclusion that the Nitro shocks are too stiff for me. I think they would be okay for a dedicated trail rig, but if you drive on pavement at all, they are way too stiff. I just put in an order for some Doetsch Techs. Anyone want a set of 4" Nitro lift shocks?

I also think that my articulation is hurting due to the Nitro shocks in combination with new/stiff springs. When I stuff one side, the best I can get out of the front is a shackle that is slightly forward (see pic). And that is completly stuffed. Since the other side is already inverted, I don't get much droop, either. I'm hoping that once these springs settle in a bit and I get the new shocks on, it will give a little better articulation. I've seen pics of this kit, and I'm not getting anywhere near the articulation of others.

The first pic shows the fronts after 2 trips into the mountains. Second pic is the rear. The third pic shows the shackle angle while on the trail (and a pic of my daughter, she loves my cruiser!).

 

[FF LC FREAK]

Here's a couple more pics:

First one shows what i was talking about when stuffed. The picture doesn't show real well, but the right front tire is up on a berm. The shackle doesn't really push out. This was my first trip with the new suspension. I did the same test on a rock the second trip up (but forgot to take a picture ) and the shackle pushed out a little better. So, I do have hope that the springs will relax a bit more and give a little better articulation.

The second picture is just because. There is some beautiful scenery around here.

I'll update again once I get the new shocks on.

Oh, and no, that second picture is not the same as my avatar. It is actually another 5 or so miles up the road.

 

[nuclearlemon]

extended shackles will make a difference in the angle also. you might try going to a stock size shackle.

 

['74 UA FJ]

extended shackles will make a difference in the angle also. you might try going to a stock size shackle.

I believe that will make the angle worse, and reduce flex.

 

[projektdotnet]

Get some Bilstein 5125 series shocks. I know a few friends that run them, albeit on a sprungover rig, and love them to death

 

[FJBen]

Here's a couple more pics:

First one shows what i was talking about when stuffed. The picture doesn't show real well, but the right front tire is up on a berm. The shackle doesn't really push out. This was my first trip with the new suspension. I did the same test on a rock the second trip up (but forgot to take a picture ) and the shackle pushed out a little better. So, I do have hope that the springs will relax a bit more and give a little better articulation.

The second picture is just because. There is some beautiful scenery around here.

I'll update again once I get the new shocks on.

Oh, and no, that second picture is not the same as my avatar. It is actually another 5 or so miles up the road.

Yeah thats not stuffed! You should be able to stuff that tire much much more than that. Those springs must be pretty stiff. They will break in, i hope over time...at night in the garage park it on car ramps, one at front, one at back opposite wheel to help break them in.

here's a poser pic of stuffing the tire and droop...

 

[FF LC FREAK]

Well, I promised an update, so here y'all go. First off, I got rid of the Rough Country Nitro shocks. I bought Bilstein 5125s. Unfortunately, I ended up ordering the wrong ones for the rear, so at first I only put on the fronts. It made a huge difference in ride, but no difference in shackle angle.

I guess I should provide a little background, I took the rig up into the hills 3 times and flexed it out quite a bit each time, but it never really helped the shackle angle. I also parked the rig overnight several times on opposite ramps, which also provided very little relief. With the Bilstiens up front, the ride ride in front was much improved, but the back end still bounced like crazy with the old Nitros. This made for some interesting handling characteristics.

Since the front shackle angle still sucked, I ended up cutting off the shackle hanger and flipping it around. Even with the Bilsteins, it wasn't handling well enough for my tastes with the old shackle angle. I welded the shackle hanger back on at a good shackle angle and the ride has improved drastically. After flipping the shackle hangers, I realize that these springs flex and ride great, you just need to get the shackles to the proper angle. It is too bad that they can't make the springs match the proper shackle angle from the factory. Anyway, you can see from the pics that the shackle angle is much improved. Again, I had to cut off the shackle hangers to get to this point.

The rear shackles with the hardtop on were pretty much vertical. Without the hardtop, the rear shackles have inverted somewhat. I have yet to move the rear shackle hangers. However, the fronts are still looking good. At this point, I am thinking that I will need to cut off the rear shackle hangers to get decent flex out of these springs. As I said, they will flex great, you just have to get the proper shackle angle.

So, do I recommend Hell Creek Suspensions 4" lift? At this point, I am neutral on it. I originally bought the kit because I wanted a bolt on lift. Unfortunately, I didn't get that. However, after fixing the shackle angle, I am happy with the flex and ride of this suspension. My recommendation is: if you are buying this suspension, just get the springs. Know that you will need to address shackle angle. Buy a decent set of shocks to help out with ride. I love my Bilstein 5125s.

As I said earlier, I ordered the wrong rear shocks (you gotta love buying on the internet, D'oh!). Once I had the Bilsteins on the back end, the ride improved a great deal. I think the Bilsteins in front made the most difference, but they sure didn't hurt the ride in the back end! I would recommend them in a heartbeat.

The springs from Hell Creek, well, that is up to you. With a little extra work, they work great. However, that defeats the purpose of a bolt on lift. If I had it to do over again, it would buy the HFS springs from CCOT. Or, I would just work on a SOA. Again, that all comes back to personal preference.

Hopefully, this all makes sense, and I've helped someone out there make a decision on a lift kit.



First pics are of the new shackle angle after I cut them off and re-welded them. The second pic shows the rear shackle without the hardtop on.

 

[johnkappus]

wow...you are one patient guy!

That's a lot of BS to deal with

Cheers to your persistence

Glad you got it figured out in the end

 

[mr_manny]

With all of the positive feedback Hell Creek has received here on Mud, this is really disappointing.
Something in there manufacturing process must have changed, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Is Alcan spring company the only one that stands behind there suspension products?
It's not like Alcan's are that much more expensive...

Thanks for keeping us posted on your spring upgrade, and post some pics when your done w/the rear.

what was that saying, "...it makes you stronger"

manny

 

[dgangle]

see post 16 & 17 for my solution

Not Hell Creek but BTB's and the same problem. See:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=103349

Also see post 3:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=108994&highlight=shackle+hanger

And another...see post 10:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=101151&highlight=shackle+hanger

 

[slickrock]

I have some no name 4”s springs in front with a .75” shackle lift. It sits level with my rear SOA. With 33s, at full flex, the tires crunched the front fenders on the lower front lip. Now with 35s I had to trim my front fenders to get full stuff without contacting metal.

Something is really wrong with your springs. They are too short. I would contact Tom and check your spring numbers with his charts to make sure they are the right springs. If they are, ask for a full return. You spent money and time (time being most valuable with the little one you have). Tom should see that the problem is major and can cause broken parts or physical harm if you are going down the road, the shackles invert and you crash.

oops replied before I got to the ltest post. Still the shackels seem off. Does it say anywhere on the companies paperwork that you have to fabricate new mounts? This seems to be a big issue that the company needs to address and take care of your end financially.

 

[77TLCFJ40]

Has anyone else with Hell Creek springs had this problem? I don't know of anyone who has!?!

Definitely contact Tom and share your pictures and spring measurements. I am confident that he will have a solution or make it right.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[joex3]

"Not many people realize it, but the Nitro shocks actually contribute lift to the vehicle, since they are gas-charged (pressurized).

That is wrong. If you can compress the unistalled shocks with your bare hands, then they arent going to affect your ride height at all.

 

[65swb45]

Mark A.

With all of the positive feedback Hell Creek has received here on Mud, this is really disappointing.
Something in there manufacturing process must have changed, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Or it could be part of a small bad batch. These things happen to all the suspension companies eventually. There are scattered reports on most of the companies out there. NO ONE IS IMMUNE!

Is Alcan spring company the only one that stands behind there suspension products?

Hardly, but results may vary. Proffitts has not had good things to say about them, but I bought them anyways. Very happy...and...fwiw, the shackles on my 45 are straight up and down. Alcan designed and built the springs that way. Soooo, my droop is somewhat more limited than I would like.

It's not like Alcan's are that much more expensive...

True enough.

Thanks for keeping us posted on your spring upgrade, and post some pics when your done w/the rear.

Absolutely. I like your solution. Just not what you thought you were getting into when you started.

what was that saying, "...it makes you stronger"

Definitely! Props to you for your positive attitude.

manny

Mark A.

 

[FF LC FREAK]

Thanks everybody.

I just want to respond to some of the comments. First off, I want to make sure everybody knows that I am NOT badmouthing Hellcreek suspensions. As Mark said, any company can have a bad batch. I am simply reporting what happened to me and what I had to do to fix my issue. I have not contacted Tom Laher since the earlier e-mail that I posted above. The few times I talked to him, I got the impression that he would have helped out anyway he could. However, I did not want to deal with taking those springs off, shipping them back, waiting for new springs, installing the new springs, and then finding out the new springs are the same length as the old springs (i.e. bad shackle angle). These springs will be on my rig for awhile, so I figured I might as well make my shackle angles agreeable.

Thanks again!

 

[mr_manny]

wondering if your springs settled anymore...are your shackle angles more Feng Shui