Rebuild stock carb cost? Issues with passing CA smog (3 Viewers)

[ro11dice]

Took my FJ60 in to get a smog check...Failed. First test, failed on visual inspection. Smog tech said that vac lines to the carb were not correct and should be silicon. Didn't want to argue with him but told him that PO had carb serviced with LC specialist, Mudrak. Fine. I changed them. 2nd was timing was off and at 3* BTDC. No prob, I'd adjust. and 3rd I wasn't passing 15mph but passing 25mph test.

1st test results:

After failed test:

1. changed vac hoses to carb
2. adjusted timing to 7* BTDC
3. prayed that 2 steps above resulted in passing 15mph test

2nd test...Failed:

After 2nd test, I passed visual inspection of vac hoses to carb and timing of 7* BTDC but failed on the 15mph test.

2nd smog tech was much more approachable and after talking with him and comparing the 2 failed tests, that the likely culprit is the carb and I'm running too rich.

I then went to another smog shop which was recommended by other LC enthusiasts and find 4 other FJ60s there and thought I was in the right place. The tech there took a look and noticed fuel seeping out of the carb pictured here:

He said that I'd need to have the carb rebuilt and was looking at $1k for a rebuild. His approach would also inspect all other smog components in the system (EGR, VSV, all vac hoses, etc).

A couple of question to the MUD experts:

1. Any feedback on what a carb rebuild cost. $1k seems high but looking at PinHead's vids on YouTube, it looks pretty involved and most likely out of my league to DIY. PO had some work done on the carb and may have had a rebuild done before. I'm thinking if I do have someone else rebuild it, will I come across this again when I smog again?
2. Is there any way to address just the part circled in red where it's currently seeping fuel - without a rebuild or taking the carb off?

More details - '85 FJ60, 2F, stock carb, in California so all smog components intact. Owned a little over 3 yrs, my first smog passed like i had Prius emissions. Only thing I've touched on the carb is changing the choke cable.

Thanks!

 

[2mbb]

The diagnosis from the second guy who is supposed to know land cruisers is a little suspicious to me. Fuel leaking out of the slow cut valve doesn’t necessarily mean it is causing a rich mixture. The leak is to the outside of the carburetor. Also if he is knowledgeable he should know this valve is no longer available and not rebuildable so after you pay $1000 to him it will still be leaking.

During your first test one of your residual O2 readings is zero. This indicates your air injection system may not be working properly.

Down load a copy of the 2F emissions manual and go through the various trouble shooting tables and tests.

 

[Spike Strip]

You're dealing with a few issues here -

Just an FYI: In kalif, you can be +/- 2 degrees on timing. For Smog test, set timing to 5* BTDC.

That leaking thing on the Carb is called a 'Slow Cut Valve' and it's long unobtanium from anywhere and all of them, pretty much, at this point leak. The standard fix is to remove, tap, and plug the valve with a very shallow bolt and JB weld and cut off the arm. Does not effect smog.

If you can remove and replace the carb yourself, rebuilds run about $450 + ship from the ONLY two LC carb guru I would send it to.

BUT FIRST - I would download either the 2F FSM or the 2F Emissions manual and do a LEAN-DROP carb adjustment and take it to a smog check where the techs don't know Land Cruisers. It's not to your advantage for the tech to know what they're looking at.

ALSO (and I found this out the hard way in Los Angeles) it makes a BIG DIFFERENCE on whether you test with Winter Blend gasoline or SUMMER blend. Summer blend won't start being delivered until late Feb or March, I forget. Summer blend is highly Oxygenated and seems to burn cleaner.

NOTE --

If you can find a station that sells E85 gasoline, run your tank very low (couple gallons or less) and add a few gallons of E85 and test, then when you're done with test, fill up with non-E85 gas.

Another NOTE -- This would be the perfect time to install (and anyone in Kalifailure with a Carb'd vehicle really needs this) is an Air/Fuel meter to help tune the carb for precise metering. There's really no other way, anymore, with laws so strict.

 

[OSS]

I’m glad @Spike Strip and @2mbb posted their thoughts. Follow their advice. They know what they’re talking about.

 

[ro11dice]

The diagnosis from the second guy who is supposed to know land cruisers is a little suspicious to me. Fuel leaking out of the slow cut valve doesn’t necessarily mean it is causing a rich mixture. The leak is to the outside of the carburetor. Also if he is knowledgeable he should know this valve is no longer available and not rebuildable so after you pay $1000 to him it will still be leaking.

During your first test one of your residual O2 readings is zero. This indicates your air injection system may not be working properly.

Down load a copy of the 2F emissions manual and go through the various trouble shooting tables and tests.

@2mbb - I haven't been around too many stock FJ60s to notice the fuel smell like mine. And it's seeping out very very little but noticeable. So all orig stock carbs would be doing this? Unless they've done was @Spike Strip has done in plugging the slow cut valve as he mentioned. I have the 2F emissions manual and it's less daunting to me (a shadetree mechanic) than the PinHead carb rebuild YouTube vids.

BUT FIRST - I would download either the 2F FSM or the 2F Emissions manual and do a LEAN-DROP carb adjustment and take it to a smog check where the techs don't know Land Cruisers. It's not to your advantage for the tech to know what they're looking at.

ALSO (and I found this out the hard way in Los Angeles) it makes a BIG DIFFERENCE on whether you test with Winter Blend gasoline or SUMMER blend. Summer blend won't start being delivered until late Feb or March, I forget. Summer blend is highly Oxygenated and seems to burn cleaner.

NOTE --

If you can find a station that sells E85 gasoline, run your tank very low (couple gallons or less) and add a few gallons of E85 and test, then when you're done with test, fill up with non-E85 gas.

Another NOTE -- This would be the perfect time to install (and anyone in Kalifailure with a Carb'd vehicle really needs this) is an Air/Fuel meter to help tune the carb for precise metering. There's really no other way, anymore, with laws so strict.

@Spike Strip - All good points. I did see the lean-drop adj in the manual. Interesting note about the E85. I'll give that a try once I get thru the Emissions Manual. Interesting, I do remember my first smog 2 yrs ago and I failed. The tech then said to wait a few hours and fill up the tank with regular unleaded. I was about 1/4 full. I did that and passed. I'm trying to look for that smog vehicle inspection report to see what the issue was. I think i was just happy to pass that I no longer paid attention to the VIR. I also saw the thread about the autometer air/fuel meter you posted. I'll need to look into that.

I’m glad @Spike Strip and @2mbb posted their thoughts. Follow their advice. They know what they’re talking about.

@OSS your reply completes the trifecta of MUD brain trust. Y'all have been super helpful either in response to my threads or my search on previous threads where your replies have help immensely. Once again, thanks!

I'll reserve the right to post some questions here in case I get into some snags with the emissions manual. So for now, I'll go thru the manual before I address the carb (other than the lean-drop) adj.

 

[OSS]

I’ll post my test results here so you have a reference what’s possible.
This engine had 280,000 miles on the block but a newly overhauled cylinder head. Also catalytic converter only had about 60k miles on it so it was fully functional.
Engine was as tuned up as it possibly could be (oil change too) and was driven 30 minutes before the test and never allowed to cool down before testing (waited idling).
Used normal gasoline with nothing added to the tank. Timing was at 7° BTDC. (Spec).

Ten years ago it used to get lower numbers.

 

[ro11dice]

I’ll post my test results here so you have a reference what’s possible.
This engine had 280,000 miles on the block but a newly overhauled cylinder head. Also catalytic converter only had about 60k miles on it so it was fully functional.
Engine was as tuned up as it possibly could be (oil change too) and was driven 30 minutes before the test and never allowed to cool down before testing (waited idling).
Used normal gasoline with nothing added to the tank. Timing was at 7° BTDC. (Spec).

Ten years ago it used to get lower numbers.

View attachment 2871092

the bar has been raised. the CO% your 60 produced are crazy low. i'll add an oil change to my list of todos also. thanks @OSS

 

[2mbb]

@2mbb - I haven't been around too many stock FJ60s to notice the fuel smell like mine. And it's seeping out very very little but noticeable. So all orig stock carbs would be doing this? Unless they've done was @Spike Strip has done in plugging the slow cut valve as he mentioned. I have the 2F emissions manual and it's less daunting to me (a shadetree mechanic) than the PinHead carb rebuild YouTube vids.

The slow cut valve shouldn't be leaking and you really shouldn't be smelling raw gasoline if everything is working properly. My point was that the slow cut valve leaking to the outside of the engine isn't going to effect your tail pipe emission readings. If you smell gasoline in the engine compartment then you should check for other leaks and make sure your EVAP system is connected properly. If you smell gasoline out the tail pipe, then your engine is running rich and/or the catalytic converter isn't working properly.

Your low tail pipe oxygen readings (OOS' are in the >2%) indicates you don't have enough oxygen pre-catalytic convertor to let it work properly. This could be your air injection system or it could be that you are feeding too much stuff to the cat to convert. This is where doing the checks per the emissions manual will help.

 

[fjc-man]

To the OP, is that with the original cat ( as far as you know )? If all the basics have been covered, it might be time for a new cat.

 

[g-man]

give somebody a thousand dollars to fix my carb??? No way. Buy a used USA carb as a "parts carb" and pull what you need. Rebuild it while you have it off.

 

[ro11dice]

To the OP, is that with the original cat ( as far as you know )? If all the basics have been covered, it might be time for a new cat.

I believe it is the original cat. Going thru the emissions manual and tune up this week.

 

[The Machinist]

Silly question... but what size tires does the truck have on it? With 33s I had similar results, failing the low speed and passing the high speed on a rebuilt carb and perfect tune up.

I slapped a set of used 4runner spare wheels and whatever matching size, roughly 29" (stock 60 size), tires the used tire shop in town had on and passed the low speed test and high speed test with flying colors.

Everybody overlooks gearing when it comes to passing the roller test. With bigger than stock tires, the engine is under more load to maintain the 15mph, often meaning that your emmissions will skyrocket.

California makes you test at 15 and 25mph, but doesnt care what gearing or tires you have.

I see that you are in the bay area, you can have the old rollers if you want to come down to San Jose to pick them up. I moved out of California this summer so I dont need them anymore.

 

[PescaBaja]

To the OP, is that with the original cat ( as far as you know )? If all the basics have been covered, it might be time for a new cat.

I'm here in So Cal and in the process of restoring my '87 FJ60 I'm looking at replacing the orig. Cat and downside exhaust pipe and orig. Muffler.
FYI...
Magnaflow CARB/FED approved direct replace Cat...Part # 3391894 (flanged) from their Website...$1445.
New downside exhaust pipe, Muffler, and Labor...~$650.
Total + Calif. Sales Tax... ~ $ 2252.
Ouch!!!

 

[OSS]

$ 2252.
Ouch!!!

Might want to fortify that cat…

Police and sheriff's deputies try to curb spike in catalytic converter thefts

Catalytic converter thefts are on the rise in San Diego County and nationwide

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

 

[fjc-man]

I'm here in So Cal and in the process of restoring my '87 FJ60 I'm looking at replacing the orig. Cat and downside exhaust pipe and orig. Muffler.
FYI...
Magnaflow CARB/FED approved direct replace Cat...Part # 3391894 (flanged) from their Website...$1445.
New downside exhaust pipe, Muffler, and Labor...~$650.
Total + Calif. Sales Tax... ~ $ 2252.
Ouch!!!

At least it would all be stainless.

 

[vipergrhd]

Very good points from everybody, I will be doing a smog test by March and I will be rebuilding my carb and got the kit already if you like i could rebuild the carb out of your 60 when i do mine just buy the kit. I'm not a carb guru like @65swb45 but i have done it more than a dozen time on a variety of carburetors, I also have a set of 29"tires that you can use but you have to smog your vehicle here near my house in Pittsburg since these tires are not gonna last on the road for any amount of trip the sidewall are badly crack and too old. Just want to help out another cruiser owner.

Post a pic of your Cat. Converter I will post up mine later when i get home.

 

[Rgill]

Another California rant is that you can pass at the tail pipe and fail the visual. I thought the goal was clean air?

 

[HemiAlex]

What guide do these techs use to know what the visual should look like on all these different cars?

 

[vipergrhd]

What guide do these techs use to know what the visual should look like on all these different cars?

This is the man @TYM4FUN in the know for this question.

 

[The Machinist]

Another California rant is that you can pass at the tail pipe and fail the visual. I thought the goal was clean air?

California's main concern is revenue generation, they use clean air and better vehicle emissions as an excuse to get you to buy a new car and pay more sales tax and registration fees. Sure, it helps improve air quality slightly, but it generates a TON of revenue. I used to pay over $400/yr to register a 2019 VW Golf... I recently bought a 2021 Tundra here in Idaho, and the registration was about $140 for two years.... and trucks pay more than passenger cars in California!

What guide do these techs use to know what the visual should look like on all these different cars?

https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/2017_Smog_Check_Manual.pdf
^^^ You can click on the chapters in the table of contents to take you to the visual inspection section.