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- #21
Where is your frost line?
Workshop Extension and Updates (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter PAToyota
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Where is your frost line?
- Thread starter
- #23
Yep. Exactly. All that wet clay and a 36" frost line and I have to get down that far to not get frost heave.
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- #24
The weather hasn't been cooperating lately. My plan had been to do this back in August/September, but other things got in the way. Fortunately, it hasn't turned too cold yet, but the rain hasn't been helping things.
I managed to get stone, sand, and portland cement stockpiled. Due to access issues, I can't get a concrete truck or tri-axle back in there and the project is small enough that the cost for a pump truck is out of a budget. So I've been bringing everything in using my 3/4 ton truck. The local concrete supply is less than two miles away, so it isn't a bad haul. A ton and a half does make the truck settle about four inches, though...
[first and second pictures]
As I said, the rain has been a problem. Had to drain some water out of the one area of the trench. [third picture]
I managed to get stone, sand, and portland cement stockpiled. Due to access issues, I can't get a concrete truck or tri-axle back in there and the project is small enough that the cost for a pump truck is out of a budget. So I've been bringing everything in using my 3/4 ton truck. The local concrete supply is less than two miles away, so it isn't a bad haul. A ton and a half does make the truck settle about four inches, though...
[first and second pictures]As I said, the rain has been a problem. Had to drain some water out of the one area of the trench. [third picture]
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- #25
So this weekend I got the footers placed. It was supposed to start raining overnight Saturday to Sunday, so I thought I was only going to be able to work Saturday. Sunday dawned with no rain and the weather report was saying the rain was coming in later in the evening, so I got another day's worth of work in.
First picture shows the progress of placing the footers.
Second picture is of my mixing setup. I have a little electric concrete mixer. Well, maybe not little compared to the ones that places like Harbor Freight and Lowes sell. Does a pretty nice job. A cubic foot of portland cement, two cubic feet of sand, four cubic feet of stone, and about six gallons of water. For reference, at those proportions six batches make a cubic yard of concrete. I'm making a nice dent in the sand and stone stockpiles.
The weather has been warm during the day - for December. But it is getting below freezing at night, so I've been covering things up. Concrete is exothermic - gives off its own heat - but with the nighttime temperatures I don't want it freezing up. So, as the final picture shows, some $4 Harbor Freight moving blankets and a layer of straw will keep things warm.
First picture shows the progress of placing the footers.
Second picture is of my mixing setup. I have a little electric concrete mixer. Well, maybe not little compared to the ones that places like Harbor Freight and Lowes sell. Does a pretty nice job. A cubic foot of portland cement, two cubic feet of sand, four cubic feet of stone, and about six gallons of water. For reference, at those proportions six batches make a cubic yard of concrete. I'm making a nice dent in the sand and stone stockpiles.
The weather has been warm during the day - for December. But it is getting below freezing at night, so I've been covering things up. Concrete is exothermic - gives off its own heat - but with the nighttime temperatures I don't want it freezing up. So, as the final picture shows, some $4 Harbor Freight moving blankets and a layer of straw will keep things warm.
Last edited:
alia176
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what is the ratio being used in the concrete mixer?
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- #27
I mentioned the ratio in the text above the latest pictures.
alia176
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oh crap, my apologies.
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- #29
No worries.
alia176
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I don't have the knowledge or the resources to pull this type of project off by myself but I do appreciate the learning process. At least I'll sound more intelligent when I talk to contractors for my future garage build!
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- #31
I really wouldn't recommend mixing your own concrete unless you had to. I certainly got a workout!
On the mix, if you're getting redi-mix you typically ask for a certain strength - 3000 to 3500 psi is fairly typical for a wall footing like this. If you have a more concentrated load - like a column or an equipment base - it can require higher. I talked to the concrete supply where I bought the cement, sand, and stone. They recommended the 1:2:4 mix for my application and said it would give me a minimum of 3000 psi.
The other issue is the water. You want as "dry" of a mixture as possible and still be able to place it. You don't want it soupy. Extra water lowers the strength of the concrete. Also, a "drier" mix is less water permeable once set - a factor if you're doing basement walls or such. Wetter mixtures dry more porous. So you're shooting for no more water than half the weight of the cement in the mixture. Above that, the strength drops off considerably as the porosity increases. So I was starting with about three gallons per batch and would add more as needed to get a good mix. How much more changed depending on the moisture in the materials. Particularly the sand was wetter toward the bottom of the pile and I ended up using less added water for those batches.
As I mentioned, this mixer holds about 1/6 of a cubic yard. With the 1:2:4 ratio, I was using a cubic foot of portland cement, two c.f. of sand, and four c.f. of stone. I'd start out (with the mixer running) with three gallons of water and add 1/4 of the stone and a 1/4 of the sand. Then I'd add in 1/3 of the portland cement. Then another 1/4 of the stone and 1/4 of the sand and another 1/3 of the cement. At that point, I'd have to add some more water. Then another 1/4 of the stone and 1/4 of the sand and the rest of the cement. Add a little more water if it was too dry and then add the last of the stone and sand. If you added all of one component at once, it just wouldn't mix thoroughly. And you want at least the stone and water in there before adding the cement because the aggregate helped mix things.
As an architect, I feel personally that I need to do a certain amount of this hands-on kind of thing. Unfortunately, I know too many of my colleagues who would be hard pressed to use a hammer effectively - and their designs show it. They don't understand how the things actually go together - just what they've read out of a book or off the internet and it is just words and pictures to them.
On the mix, if you're getting redi-mix you typically ask for a certain strength - 3000 to 3500 psi is fairly typical for a wall footing like this. If you have a more concentrated load - like a column or an equipment base - it can require higher. I talked to the concrete supply where I bought the cement, sand, and stone. They recommended the 1:2:4 mix for my application and said it would give me a minimum of 3000 psi.
The other issue is the water. You want as "dry" of a mixture as possible and still be able to place it. You don't want it soupy. Extra water lowers the strength of the concrete. Also, a "drier" mix is less water permeable once set - a factor if you're doing basement walls or such. Wetter mixtures dry more porous. So you're shooting for no more water than half the weight of the cement in the mixture. Above that, the strength drops off considerably as the porosity increases. So I was starting with about three gallons per batch and would add more as needed to get a good mix. How much more changed depending on the moisture in the materials. Particularly the sand was wetter toward the bottom of the pile and I ended up using less added water for those batches.
As I mentioned, this mixer holds about 1/6 of a cubic yard. With the 1:2:4 ratio, I was using a cubic foot of portland cement, two c.f. of sand, and four c.f. of stone. I'd start out (with the mixer running) with three gallons of water and add 1/4 of the stone and a 1/4 of the sand. Then I'd add in 1/3 of the portland cement. Then another 1/4 of the stone and 1/4 of the sand and another 1/3 of the cement. At that point, I'd have to add some more water. Then another 1/4 of the stone and 1/4 of the sand and the rest of the cement. Add a little more water if it was too dry and then add the last of the stone and sand. If you added all of one component at once, it just wouldn't mix thoroughly. And you want at least the stone and water in there before adding the cement because the aggregate helped mix things.
As an architect, I feel personally that I need to do a certain amount of this hands-on kind of thing. Unfortunately, I know too many of my colleagues who would be hard pressed to use a hammer effectively - and their designs show it. They don't understand how the things actually go together - just what they've read out of a book or off the internet and it is just words and pictures to them.
PAToyota said:
Two words. Pump truck. Hahaha.
(I know you addressed, already. Joking)
Worked as a mason's laborer through a summer at 18. Going to a gym 6 days a week can't produce the same results.
PAToyota said:
Kudos.
A good idea for both the architectural and structural/civil engineering professions to consider.
On more than one occasion, job site meetings with either profession (typ. younger versions) begin with light berating from, end with "it worked on paper", and only after being visually shown the err in the thinking, because no amount of documentation, nor discussion, prior to meeting would convince.
The seasoned know to expect issues and appreciate group consensus on resolution, because there's always issues and why it's called "plans" not " definitive resolution".
Knowledge gained by doing it is invaluable.
As a structural engineer, I can't agree more about needing to get your hands dirty. I've surprised a few contractors with my hands on approach...from excavators to welding.
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- #34
I just couldn't justify the $800 cost to get them out here for 4.5 yards of concrete. But it certainly would have gone a lot faster.
Bobcat has a concrete pump attachment. I looked around to see if I could rent one, but the rental places all said that they gave up on renting concrete pumps of any sort because nobody took the time to clean them out properly when it wasn't their own equipment. I've considered the possibility of buying one of the attachments and setting up a business with it. It seems that there would be a market for it with smaller projects that couldn't justify the pump truck yet make it easier than using wheelbarrows or buggies.
It does go both ways. I've had any number of cases of the guys out in the field telling me they "always did it this way" or that they couldn't do something the way I was specifying things. Being able to show that I have the "hands on" experience usually gets them to understand that we're speaking the same language and I'm not just talking about what can be done on paper.
For example, two things I run into frequently are arguments about reinforcing and about flashing.
I've been told by any number of people that reinforcing in residential and even light commercial foundations is unnecessary. I'll admit that what I threw in here was overkill. But it was $100 worth of steel - cheap insurance. Between material cost and labor, foundation reinforcing will run you less than $1000 for the typical home. I can take you around and show you the houses I've consulted on where there were foundation problems and the tens of thousands of dollars that were spent to correct the issue.
Flashing is the same thing. Again, I've seen tens of thousands of dollars spent to repair damage that a couple hundred dollars of aluminum or rubber flashing and labor would have prevented. Sorry, but caulk isn't going to last you more than a few years...
We're also getting into new realms brought on by energy efficiency and tighter homes. Mold problems are increasing because people seal things up without allowing for moisture vapor to get out. You have to understand how the whole system is working.
Annually, I typically go over the continuing education requirements for several of my certifications just to keep up.
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- #35
Funny you should mention structural engineering and welding. I went around in circles with a structural engineer once about why you were only going to be able to weld a tube column to a baseplate around the exterior of the column and how he wasn't going to be able to get it welded on the interior as well...
Then there was the other structural engineer who designed a plywood gusset for a wood truss with 52 16d nails each side to fasten it to the 2x members. I asked if he had ever heard of bolts? His reply was he thought the nails would be easier because with bolts then they would need wrenches, which carpenters probably wouldn't carry...
I've got a structural engineer I've worked with for twenty years. His father was a contractor. I know without even asking that his design will be practical, economical, and make sense.
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- #36
The holidays and the weather have slowed things down. After the first snowfall, I decided to see what I could do to keep things drier.
First found an ad on craigslist for some free scrap lumber - guy tore down a porch or deck and was then surprised that the trash men wouldn't haul away the pile he left in his front yard... But free lumber worked for me!
Found another ad for 12'x24' billboard covers for $10 each - less than half the price of a HF tarp and about four times as thick.
Then got the block delivered. End of next week the overnight temperatures are supposed to be above freezing, so I'll have to see if I can get started on laying block.
First found an ad on craigslist for some free scrap lumber - guy tore down a porch or deck and was then surprised that the trash men wouldn't haul away the pile he left in his front yard...
But free lumber worked for me!Found another ad for 12'x24' billboard covers for $10 each - less than half the price of a HF tarp and about four times as thick.
Then got the block delivered. End of next week the overnight temperatures are supposed to be above freezing, so I'll have to see if I can get started on laying block.
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Am interested to learn how you're going to marry the existing roof to the addition's roof & pitch. It IS going to butt up against that roofline that has the gutter in it, isn't it?
Man, I can be so jealous of what's available in the normal world. Only $800 for a pumper to come in and you turned it down? Wow.
On the other hand, ain't-a-no inspeckateers around here, and so my shop sports a fine 11'-long, 5 1/2'-deep man-pit. Makes tearing down the skid plates on the heavy equipment feasible, if still not pleasant. And oil changes are a breeze. Of course, I keep a ventilation fan going all the time I'm down there, and still out of suspicion hold my breath every time I've got to reach down to pick up a dropped tool, etc.
Good job. Wish you could have built it deeper than that 18', but seems pesky things like property boundaires were in your way....
Man, I can be so jealous of what's available in the normal world. Only $800 for a pumper to come in and you turned it down? Wow.
On the other hand, ain't-a-no inspeckateers around here, and so my shop sports a fine 11'-long, 5 1/2'-deep man-pit. Makes tearing down the skid plates on the heavy equipment feasible, if still not pleasant. And oil changes are a breeze. Of course, I keep a ventilation fan going all the time I'm down there, and still out of suspicion hold my breath every time I've got to reach down to pick up a dropped tool, etc.
Good job. Wish you could have built it deeper than that 18', but seems pesky things like property boundaires were in your way....
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- #38
Here is another shot that should better explain the roof juncture. The peak of the new roof will tie in to where the existing roof meets the second floor wall and then the new eaves will tie in with the line of the existing eave on either side.
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- #39
Well, haven't been making much progress with the weather lately. I need at least 24 hours of above freezing temperatures to lay block. The times that has come close to being a possibility it has been raining...
alia176
SILVER Star
I was curious as to why one chooses a block stem wall vs cement concrete stem wall?
