Why aren't there aluminum radius arms? (1 Viewer)

[AussieHJCruza]

Toyota has now switched to aluminum control arm assemblies with the 300 series.

I would think there is some engineering specifications from material sciences that lends some credibility to future aluminum suspension/control arm applications being instituted.

I wouldn't class it as equal to a Toyota, but my Raptor has aluminium Front upper and lower control arms. I'll see if I can find out what grade they are.

Edit: grade isn't forthcoming after a bit of digging

 

[DivByZero]

I dunno, my uneducated reaction is that aluminium for something like that makes me uncomfortable. Steel bends. Aluminium shatters. Steel can be repaired. Aluminium is unworkable by mere mortals. For something that I expect to take sharp impacts offroad, I'd hesitate to consider aluminium over a steel alternative. That might be ignorance talking, but I've seen shattered alloy wheels and the like. I like the failure modes of steel.

 

[scottryana]

Haha this is all so ridiculous, there are trucks getting used much harder then our 80's running full aluminum trailing arms and suspension links. Not to mention if you search aluminum arms have already been done for 80's. There was a gentleman who owned or worked for Taylor guitars that had custom aluminum arms cut.

New to the Forum, but not to TLCs

Aluminum Front Control Arms Hi everyone, I just thought I'd stop in and introduce myself. I've gained some useful info off this site and wanted to say thanks. I've been doing off road expedition travel for several years, and have settled into Series 80 Landcruisers. I got my whole group in El...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[manofthewoods]

I'm planning to lift my new to me 1994 FZJ80 and want to correct castor with new arms. I've read a lot about the Slee and Delta arms, but what I don't quite follow is why nobody is making them from 7075 aluminum? Is it material cost? Is it fear of aluminum in a critical suspension component? I have made many suspension links for high performance motorsports suspension from 7075 and it has become the material of choice for many where it can be used. Plus you aren't stuck with either powdercoat or zinc- Type 3 hardcoat anodize is very difficult to beat for long term durability.

Arms could be made that were the same strength as Slee steel arms while weighing less than stockers. The material cost would be significantly higher, but the labor involved in handling and cost of shipping would be lower.

Thoughts?

I have one word for you...

As my sophisticated friends would say: Car Bone Feeebreee. (the stuff my bicycle is made outta)

We'll not one word but

 

[Heckraiser]

Make a set, post 'em up, determine a price that would make it worthwhile to scale up and sell them for and put them up for sale!

As others have alluded to, I suspect the main reason nobody has done it is because they will be more expensive and therefore less marketable. But if you've worked out the cost and think it would be on par with a steel part, the only thing left to do is give it a go!

 

[nukegoat]

Haha this is all so ridiculous, there are trucks getting used much harder then our 80's running full aluminum trailing arms and suspension links. Not to mention if you search aluminum arms have already been done for 80's. There was a gentleman who owned or worked for Taylor guitars that had custom aluminum arms cut.

New to the Forum, but not to TLCs

Aluminum Front Control Arms Hi everyone, I just thought I'd stop in and introduce myself. I've gained some useful info off this site and wanted to say thanks. I've been doing off road expedition travel for several years, and have settled into Series 80 Landcruisers. I got my whole group in El...

forum.ih8mud.com

I didn't know he had an 80

 

[thatcabledude]

Is this “7075” stuff what they make street signs with? I have plenty of those to work with.

 

[shocktower]

Shhttps://www.summitmachine.com/e makes links for KOH racers and they survive 7075

 

[shocktower]

I dunno, my uneducated reaction is that aluminium for something like that makes me uncomfortable. Steel bends. Aluminium shatters. Steel can be repaired. Aluminium is unworkable by mere mortals. For something that I expect to take sharp impacts offroad, I'd hesitate to consider aluminium over a steel alternative. That might be ignorance talking, but I've seen shattered alloy wheels and the like. I like the failure modes of steel.

Every Boehning jet plane you fly has 7075 body ribs made of it I have seen the place were they are made and if you saw how thin they were you probably would not fly.

I am a huge fan of aluminum radius arms, I have been for a long time just never saw them and never understood why no one has not made them a very simple component, to machine in a 2 OP set up JMHO

 

[PIP]

Haha this is all so ridiculous, there are trucks getting used much harder then our 80's running full aluminum trailing arms and suspension links. Not to mention if you search aluminum arms have already been done for 80's. There was a gentleman who owned or worked for Taylor guitars that had custom aluminum arms cut.

New to the Forum, but not to TLCs

Aluminum Front Control Arms Hi everyone, I just thought I'd stop in and introduce myself. I've gained some useful info off this site and wanted to say thanks. I've been doing off road expedition travel for several years, and have settled into Series 80 Landcruisers. I got my whole group in El...

forum.ih8mud.com

Thanks for finding that!

And I think it's important for some to realize that 7075 is some special stuff, different from your typical 6061 and A356 varieties- 7075 is not the stuff that wheels and engine parts are made from. 7075 is not going to fail as an 80 series radius arm. You'd rip the mounts off the frame or the axle before the arm failed.

And again, I have nothing against steel, but I make parts from various materials everyday. I'm familiar with a lot of different materials and mild steel isn't exciting to me. I would be excited to make radius arms from A514, but milling 1-3/4" T1 plate into radius arms would not be economical at all and fabricating from thinner sections and thinwall tubing around the bushings would be a ton of labor and welding the thin tubing in would negate the benefits of using a premium material. If they were machined from solid T1 plate one real slick thing you could do is gas nitride them and they would be an indestructible hard and bright silver because of the chromium content in T1 steel.

I've mentioned it a couple times in this thread, but the biggest draw to using aluminum for 80 arms to me is not the lightweight, but the fact it hardcoat anodizes well. Everybody's seen anodized aluminum, but type 3 is different stuff. Regular anodize is a fast process, it effects the first couple ten-thousandths of an inch. About the same as electroplating with zinc. It's primarily for looks. Form, not function. Type 3 hardcoat is a slow process done with refrigerated acid and high current electricity to build a thick, ultra hard layer on the surface.

Lets say you get some powdercoated arms. They look amazing out of the box. While putting them in you put a couple small chips in them, no big deal. A couple years go by and that powdercoat, as it is plastic, doesn't look new anymore. It's faded and there's some rust where it chipped. 5 years and they don't really clean up anymore when you powerwash the underside, the plastic is oxidized and dirt is embedded into the surface. They definitely don't look new anymore.

Lets say you had used hard anodized aluminum arms. You couldn't scratch or chip them when installing. Because hard ano is so slick nothing sticks to it. It's like a new teflon frying pan only it won't give you Alzheimer's- In fact there are high-end cooking pots and pans that are hard anodized aluminum because nothing sticks to it. So anyway, 2 years down the road, the arms wash right off and look like new, 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, doesn't matter because type 3 hardcoat doesn't degrade nor does it have any dyes to fade out like type 2 ano.

In no way do I think 7075 arms are a one size fits all solution for every application. Obviously, if you regularly weld on your radius arms 7075 would not work for you. I simply feel like 7075 is the right material to make radius arms out of if you owned a manufacturing business and wanted to make some economical arms to correct castor for a lift and add a bit of strength over stock.

But all I've done is a rough cad sketch to nest the arms to get a material size and quoted out the material from one supplier. I think I'm going to make two sets, one for me and one for a friend, see if there's something I'm missing. If they work well and the price can make them an economical choice maybe others will want them too.

 

[Rgill]

I'm planning to lift my new to me 1994 FZJ80 and want to correct castor with new arms. I've read a lot about the Slee and Delta arms, but what I don't quite follow is why nobody is making them from 7075 aluminum? Is it material cost? Is it fear of aluminum in a critical suspension component? I have made many suspension links for high performance motorsports suspension from 7075 and it has become the material of choice for many where it can be used. Plus you aren't stuck with either powdercoat or zinc- Type 3 hardcoat anodize is very difficult to beat for long term durability.

Arms could be made that were the same strength as Slee steel arms while weighing less than stockers. The material cost would be significantly higher, but the labor involved in handling and cost of shipping would be lower.

Thoughts?

I would think 7075 is too brittle, and corrosion could become an issue for everyday use. 7075 is used in the aircraft industry and corrosion is the main reason for making repairs. Can you weld 7075?

 

[PIP]

I would think 7075 is too brittle, and corrosion could become an issue for everyday use. 7075 is used in the aircraft industry and corrosion is the main reason for making repairs. Can you weld 7075?

I don't think it is too brittle. Lets say you slammed your 80 series into a 5 ton boulder at 60 MPH. Something so violent that the front end suspension is going to come apart everywhere. The 7075 radius arm is under compression, but still, somehow, it snaps.

Is it going to matter at that point? I mean, It's not like a steel arm wouldn't be folded back over on itself in the same situation. What difference does it make?

You have 1000+ HP 3 ton rockbouncers running 7075 control arms. Choosing to run 7075 over chromoly steel alloys in some cases.

Yes, corrosion is a problem with 7075. That's why type 3 anodize would be a good idea.

 

[Dusten]

Every Boehning jet plane you fly has 7075 body ribs made of it I have seen the place were they are made and if you saw how thin they were you probably would not fly.

I am a huge fan of aluminum radius arms, I have been for a long time just never saw them and never understood why no one has not made them a very simple component, to machine in a 2 OP set up JMHO

I work on those planes. The sheer number of ribs would easily offset your fear of thinness.

 

[Dusten]

Pip, based on the size of our arms, steel vs 7075 what's the weight difference?

 

[PIP]

Pip, based on the size of our arms, steel vs 7075 what's the weight difference?

For the same size part, steel will weigh 250% more than aluminum.

That doesn't mean that an aluminum equivalent will weigh nearly 2/3 less than steel because you tend to increase cross sectional thickness in aluminum parts where the characteristics of aluminum could be a problem.

You could estimate half the weight of steel arms as a reasonable number for aluminum.

 

[Dusten]

As ive never weighed our arms, i don't know the weight savings.

I guess what I am trying to surmise is this, with all the added weight added to an lc, roof rack, bumpers, winches, is the weight savings vs cost enough of an offset.

Are a lot of guys bending arms, so that strength is an issue?

 

[PIP]

As ive never weighed our arms, i don't know the weight savings.

I guess what I am trying to surmise is this, with all the added weight added to an lc, roof rack, bumpers, winches, is the weight savings vs cost enough of an offset.

Are a lot of guys bending arms, so that strength is an issue?

No, I really don't think the weight savings matters one bit either. I just bought my first 80 so I am not an expert on the durability of factory arms. I would say though, if I were a design engineer working for Toyota in the 1980's on designing the front suspension and the radius arms for the 80 I would have built them EXACTLY the same as they did- From forged mild steel. They cut no corner in the design and it is a beautiful execution that can't be improved upon.... Until you lift it lol.

Thing is, aftermarket automotive products are not the same scale as OE level manufacturing. There's no millions of radius arms for 3" lifts worth of demand out there. So forging in a first world country is not a viable option. You could have them forged by low China bidder, but that's not making anything better.

I look at the Delta arms and see a good design, but a ton of expensive labor going into making them. My background is probably different from theirs so I look at it and see all the pitfalls of a fixture, weld, flip, weld, deburr one at a time product and know that selling those arms for around $1000 a set they are not getting rich ,they are working hard for that money. Most people want steel arms and many people like the idea of a handbuilt offroad product so I see their market as being pretty safe.

The Slee arms to me look almost comically overkill. I think they have positioned their arms as the longstanding "premium" product. I don't know, but I would speculate that Slee does not actually have the machining capability to make the arms they sell. Nothing wrong with that, but it adds a a significant cost to their parts. They have to pay a machine shop to make them. The machine shop makes their nut then Slee powdercoats and packs them.

I look at these two options and I feel like there's room for a third, complimentary option- Machine from solid, but not steel. The manufacturer (me) would have a significantly easier time making and handling the parts compared to the other options. Some real tough aluminum would be overkill tough and strong and with industrial quality anodize it would be a different animal than the other options. Not better, not worse, just different.

80 series owners could have one more choice of arms.

 

[Heckraiser]

As ive never weighed our arms, i don't know the weight savings.

I guess what I am trying to surmise is this, with all the added weight added to an lc, roof rack, bumpers, winches, is the weight savings vs cost enough of an offset.

Are a lot of guys bending arms, so that strength is an issue?

I'm in the "bent radius arm" club

 

[Dusten]

No, I really don't think the weight savings matters one bit either. I just bought my first 80 so I am not an expert on the durability of factory arms. I would say though, if I were a design engineer working for Toyota in the 1980's on designing the front suspension and the radius arms for the 80 I would have built them EXACTLY the same as they did- From forged mild steel. They cut no corner in the design and it is a beautiful execution that can't be improved upon.... Until you lift it lol.

Thing is, aftermarket automotive products are not the same scale as OE level manufacturing. There's no millions of radius arms for 3" lifts worth of demand out there.

I look at the Delta arms and see a good design, but a ton of expensive labor going into making them. My background is probably different from theirs so I look at it and see all the pitfalls of a fixture, weld, flip, deburr one at a time product and know that selling those arms for around $1000 a set they are not getting rich ,they are working hard for that money. Most people want steel arms and many people like the idea of a handbuilt offroad product so I see their market as being pretty safe.

The Slee arms to me look almost comically overkill. I think they have positioned their arms as the longstanding "premium" product. I don't know, but I would speculate that Slee does not actually have the machining capability to make the arms they sell. Nothing wrong with that, but it adds a a significant cost to their parts. They have to pay a machine shop to make them. The machine shop makes their nut then Slee powdercoats and packs them.

I look at these two options and I feel like there's room for a third, complimentary option- Machine from solid, but not steel. The manufacturer (me) would have a significantly easier time making and handling the parts compared to the other options. Some real tough aluminum would be overkill tough and strong and with industrial quality anodize it would be a different animal than the other options. Not better, not worse, just different.

80 series owners could have one more choice of arms.

if they cost the same as steel, provided similar or greater strength then I see no reason they won't sell.

 

[SNLC]

I had solid 2” 7075 links all around on this.

They were awesome. Definitely drug them over some rocks bounced a rear lower up a ledge once, you could see it deflect and bounce back. Video on my YT channel I think.

Also built a set of 7075 with JJ for 80-series RLCA.

Not sure I would go to the expense for a set of one off radius arms. If they were on the market, under $2k, probably wouldn’t buy them but would think about it. Depends on the product and caster options.

Cheers