The 2H/12H-T/1HZ/1HD-T/1HD-FT Gturbo Alternative Tech Thread

[KiwiDingo]

I'd want to see dyno sheets for all these on an identical vehicle, tuned by the same person. If I was paying $2,500+ on a turbo (which I certainly am not), you'd bet your ass I'd want to see some additional, independent research.

I've seen more than enough dyno sheets now to know they mean very little to how a car actually drives on the road. They are useful tools for tuning and testing but from what I have found they give no real indication of how well that same vehicle will build actual speed on the road, provide quick transitions or early torque build. How often are you actually at full throttle while you are driving, the way the car reacts to part throttle loads comes more into play when out on the road and this is the area that gives you that drivability we are all after. Well at least I know that's what I'm after.

Sure I too like to get up and boogie and quite often rev it out to 4000rpm when I'm in the mood and it's nice to not have the power drop off like some other turbos do but that's not where this turbo shines most. It's all this on/off throttle and part throttle situations where I have found it to be far different to previous turbos and it's so much more enjoyable to drive. The rate at which you gain speed and close the distance to the car in front driving in traffic or overtaking out on the freeway with barely applying any throttle is really quite an eye opener. It does all this long before it's anywhere near full boost and this is probably the most noticeable change I've experienced. Normally I would have to have dropped back a gear or waited until I was back up to peak boost before I got the same increase in speed I now get with the current turbo.

 

[absalom]

I've seen more than enough dyno sheets now to know they mean very little to how a car actually drives on the road. They are useful tools for tuning and testing but from what I have found they give no real indication of how well that same vehicle will build actual speed on the road, provide quick transitions or early torque build. How often are you actually at full throttle while you are driving, the way the car reacts to part throttle loads comes more into play when out on the road and this is the area that gives you that drivability we are all after. Well at least I know that's what I'm after.

Sure I too like to get up and boogie and quite often rev it out to 4000rpm when I'm in the mood and it's nice to not have the power drop off like some other turbos do but that's not where this turbo shines most. It's all this on/off throttle and part throttle situations where I have found it to be far different to previous turbos and it's so much more enjoyable to drive. The rate at which you gain speed and close the distance to the car in front driving in traffic or overtaking out on the freeway with barely applying any throttle is really quite an eye opener. It does all this long before it's anywhere near full boost and this is probably the most noticeable change I've experienced. Normally I would have to have dropped back a gear or waited until I was back up to peak boost before I got the same increase in speed I now get with the current turbo.

Sounds like we have different criteria and requirements before dropping $2,500.

 

[IanB]

We need a US mfg (or vendor) to step up to the plate and start offering an affordable bolt-on solution for the JDM diesels.

There's at best a few hundred of these engines in North America, you'll be waiting a while.

 

[downunder 80]

I've seen more than enough dyno sheets now to know they mean very little to how a car actually drives on the road. They are useful tools for tuning and testing but from what I have found they give no real indication of how well that same vehicle will build actual speed on the road, provide quick transitions or early torque build. How often are you actually at full throttle while you are driving, the way the car reacts to part throttle loads comes more into play when out on the road and this is the area that gives you that drivability we are all after. Well at least I know that's what I'm after.

Sure I too like to get up and boogie and quite often rev it out to 4000rpm when I'm in the mood and it's nice to not have the power drop off like some other turbos do but that's not where this turbo shines most. It's all this on/off throttle and part throttle situations where I have found it to be far different to previous turbos and it's so much more enjoyable to drive. The rate at which you gain speed and close the distance to the car in front driving in traffic or overtaking out on the freeway with barely applying any throttle is really quite an eye opener. It does all this long before it's anywhere near full boost and this is probably the most noticeable change I've experienced. Normally I would have to have dropped back a gear or waited until I was back up to peak boost before I got the same increase in speed I now get with the current turbo.

How many know have you done on the eclipse turbo Kiwi?

 

[KiwiDingo]

How many know have you done on the eclipse turbo Kiwi?

How many what, dyno's? Wouldn't have a clue on the exact of dyno runs done on my car, I'm sure it would be in the hundreds though. As you can imagine I've seen quite a lot of these as there's a pretty sweet dyno setup at the Eclipse factory. Actually reminds me more of a laboratory than any other dyno setup I've used previously, it's fully sealed and sound proofed and they can control the environmental condition inside to keep things constant. I remember seeing a video of it on their Facebook page recently if you want to check it out

Edit- found a link to that video on their website

Video and Clips – Eclipse Turbo Systems

eclipseturbosystems.com.au

 

[IanB]

How much boost are you running?

 

[KiwiDingo]

How much boost are you running?

Currently right now, as in today. Only around 20psi but I'm a tinkerer and it changes daily with all my own testing I like to experiment with. Yesterday it was 24, who know what it'll be tomorrow.

 

[dare]

I don't think Gturbo are really overpriced, just expensive. I couldn't justify the price of one on my projects but I can understand why people pay it, especially people who aren't technically minded.

Australia is a different market to the rest of the world. It's a pretty small population, everything is more expensive and we're happy to pay a premium for quality. You've gotta remember Gturbo is based in the worlds most remote capital city and he's trying to make and assemble as much stuff as possible here. I'm sure he could just drop the R&D, have it all made in Thailand and cut the prices down but making the best turbo is a real passion project for Graham. In the grand scheme of car mods $2xxx isn't a lot of money for something that gives such an increase, how many street car guys spend more than that on an exhaust or a set of wheels?

I think it's pretty simple, if you wanna spend less get a Mamba, Kinugawa, Munro or adapt any number of the alternatives discussed in this thread. Landcruisers aren't cheap cars and people are often happy to pay a bit more for a bolt on solution with proven results and local support. We don't really have a car building culture like overseas and to a lot of people, time on the tracks > time in the shed.

FWIW Gturbo have all their pricing online now so we don't need to speculate on prices. Here's 1HD-T stuff.

1HD-T (80 Series) Archives - GTurbo

Toyota 100 series 1HD-FTE, 1HD-FT, 1HD-T compatible Gasket Kit Included

gturbo.com.au

 

[downunder 80]

How many what, dyno's? Wouldn't have a clue on the exact of dyno runs done on my car, I'm sure it would be in the hundreds though. As you can imagine I've seen quite a lot of these as there's a pretty sweet dyno setup at the Eclipse factory. Actually reminds me more of a laboratory than any other dyno setup I've used previously, it's fully sealed and sound proofed and they can control the environmental condition inside to keep things constant. I remember seeing a video of it on their Facebook page recently if you want to check it out

Edit- found a link to that video on their website

Video and Clips – Eclipse Turbo Systems

eclipseturbosystems.com.au

Sorry km. For some reason my phone auto corrected km.
How many thousands of kilometres have you done on the eclipse?

 

[Eclipse]

Interesting comments here. Eclipse turbo systems products are not reconstituted Chinese components. The turbo was designed with a focus in mind, to be flexible and have a driving experience not seen with other turbo's offered for the 1HD series engine. All components are cast from our moulds designed in house. We have used the best materials and tech available published and some not, and some of our own brain fart ideas we have discovered using turbo test equipment and experience. The turbo uses a double row of 9 ceramic balls inside metal cages with a lot of specs that are our own development. Our focus isn't to offer a cheap bottom of the market journal bearing product sourced bits from china. If thats your direction then go for it, the eclipse ECL series is not for you. But if you are a concerning passionate toyota 1HD series engine/4x4 owner wanting something different designed for the HD engine characteristics in mind with a linear feel and instant transitions and response then this is an option you should consider. Many in this dyno car tune industry will know you can play with graphs and make them suit whatever you deem is good. The graphs presented here are straight off the screen auto scaled as it is run. They cannot show how it drives on the road or transitions or response its a dyno chart used to show a power torque result nothing else. If you think you can see more in them like smoke etc then you are better than me because the engine runs clean just like most AUS 1HD drivers here want. To be totally honest i am not really interested sending product into the US, even though with no GST and the dollar value our turbo is pretty much on the money for you. We are not a Garrett or a Borg Warner company we dont have a million+ unit orders we make a few hundred and sell them, that is the cost driver beside the passion to manufacture a product that does a way better job of the stuff that matters, how it drives. .

 

[dare]

Interesting comments here. Eclipse turbo systems products are not reconstituted Chinese components. The turbo was designed with a focus in mind, to be flexible and have a driving experience not seen with other turbo's offered for the 1HD series engine. All components are cast from our moulds designed in house. We have used the best materials and tech available published and some not, and some of our own brain fart ideas we have discovered using turbo test equipment and experience. The turbo uses a double row of 9 ceramic balls inside metal cages with a lot of specs that are our own development. Our focus isn't to offer a cheap bottom of the market journal bearing product sourced bits from china. If thats your direction then go for it, the eclipse ECL series is not for you. But if you are a concerning passionate toyota 1HD series engine/4x4 owner wanting something different designed for the HD engine characteristics in mind with a linear feel and instant transitions and response then this is an option you should consider. Many in this dyno car tune industry will know you can play with graphs and make them suit whatever you deem is good. The graphs presented here are straight off the screen auto scaled as it is run. They cannot show how it drives on the road or transitions or response its a dyno chart used to show a power torque result nothing else. If you think you can see more in them like smoke etc then you are better than me because the engine runs clean just like most AUS 1HD drivers here want. To be totally honest i am not really interested sending product into the US, even though with no GST and the dollar value our turbo is pretty much on the money for you. We are not a Garrett or a Borg Warner company we dont have a million+ unit orders we make a few hundred and sell them, that is the cost driver beside the passion to manufacture a product that does a way better job of the stuff that matters, how it drives. .

Thanks for dropping in! What your range of turbos for the relevant diesels here and what's the pricing on them? What have you done to make them better than the competition?

 

[downunder 80]

Interesting comments here. Eclipse turbo systems products are not reconstituted Chinese components. The turbo was designed with a focus in mind, to be flexible and have a driving experience not seen with other turbo's offered for the 1HD series engine. All components are cast from our moulds designed in house. We have used the best materials and tech available published and some not, and some of our own brain fart ideas we have discovered using turbo test equipment and experience. The turbo uses a double row of 9 ceramic balls inside metal cages with a lot of specs that are our own development. Our focus isn't to offer a cheap bottom of the market journal bearing product sourced bits from china. If thats your direction then go for it, the eclipse ECL series is not for you. But if you are a concerning passionate toyota 1HD series engine/4x4 owner wanting something different designed for the HD engine characteristics in mind with a linear feel and instant transitions and response then this is an option you should consider. Many in this dyno car tune industry will know you can play with graphs and make them suit whatever you deem is good. The graphs presented here are straight off the screen auto scaled as it is run. They cannot show how it drives on the road or transitions or response its a dyno chart used to show a power torque result nothing else. If you think you can see more in them like smoke etc then you are better than me because the engine runs clean just like most AUS 1HD drivers here want. To be totally honest i am not really interested sending product into the US, even though with no GST and the dollar value our turbo is pretty much on the money for you. We are not a Garrett or a Borg Warner company we dont have a million+ unit orders we make a few hundred and sell them, that is the cost driver beside the passion to manufacture a product that does a way better job of the stuff that matters, how it drives. .

Good to hear from manufactures on forums and Facebook pages Kudos to you.
I'm not knocking your product at all, I hope you didn't think I was.
I'm concerned about is spending $2600 on a fairly new performance product and it failing whilst towing in the outback somewhere. Some turbo manufacturers make it very difficult to claim warranty whilst others make it an absolute pleasure.
I may be a little different H series owner but I don't care about dyno figures but real seat of the pant performance especially towing.
Do you know how many kms any of your ecl756 have done?
How many thousand km do you recommend before an oil change running your bearing turbo on a diesel?
I don't mind spending money on my rig I just need to justify what I do spend lol.
Neil

 

[Dougal]

Interesting comments here. Eclipse turbo systems products are not reconstituted Chinese components. The turbo was designed with a focus in mind, to be flexible and have a driving experience not seen with other turbo's offered for the 1HD series engine. All components are cast from our moulds designed in house. We have used the best materials and tech available published and some not, and some of our own brain fart ideas we have discovered using turbo test equipment and experience. The turbo uses a double row of 9 ceramic balls inside metal cages with a lot of specs that are our own development. Our focus isn't to offer a cheap bottom of the market journal bearing product sourced bits from china. If thats your direction then go for it, the eclipse ECL series is not for you. But if you are a concerning passionate toyota 1HD series engine/4x4 owner wanting something different designed for the HD engine characteristics in mind with a linear feel and instant transitions and response then this is an option you should consider. Many in this dyno car tune industry will know you can play with graphs and make them suit whatever you deem is good. The graphs presented here are straight off the screen auto scaled as it is run. They cannot show how it drives on the road or transitions or response its a dyno chart used to show a power torque result nothing else. If you think you can see more in them like smoke etc then you are better than me because the engine runs clean just like most AUS 1HD drivers here want. To be totally honest i am not really interested sending product into the US, even though with no GST and the dollar value our turbo is pretty much on the money for you. We are not a Garrett or a Borg Warner company we dont have a million+ unit orders we make a few hundred and sell them, that is the cost driver beside the passion to manufacture a product that does a way better job of the stuff that matters, how it drives. .

The use of ball bearings has advantages and disadvantages. What is your expected turbo life on a diesel given that ball bearing turbos require cleaner oil than journal bearings? Do you have more rigorous oil change intervals?

Would you have a dyno chart with a leaner spoolup? Like not dipping below about 18:1?

What is the maximum boost your turbo can sustain without shortening it's life?

 

[Mcreight911]

The dyno of the eclipse showing the low afr spool isn’t how it needs to be to spool, Just how it makes max torque off boost, like most Di diesels. On road in real life that particular setup sees low 16’s:1 a very slight haze/puff as you stomp the throttle then clears instantly. Loaded on the road or in hilly driving it doesn’t hang or lag in that zone. It isn’t Smokey or hot at any point, Having a turbo that runs low drive pressure helps. A dyno graph is just a sample of how a setup performs at one particular throttle Input.

Have a look at any Gturbo performance tune, they will dip into the low to mid 15’s afr’s on the dyno.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Those dyno plots just show it was hot and smokey through spoolup. There wasn't anything that stood out as an improvement.

That's a disappointing afr ratio below 1900 rpm. Running dirty to spool a turbo early is not a new Idea unfortunately.

I have no idea how you two can say it's dirty/hot and smokey just by looking at one Dyno sheet without knowing anything else out about the setup or tune?

This car runs clean and I personally wouldn't have it any other way. In fact with a few setup adjustments I could very easily make this car run as you say "smokey, hot and dirty" at anything less than 18:1 but why the hell would I want to do that!

AFR is only a small part of the overall equation to setting up and tuning the car.

 

[Dougal]

I have no idea how you two can say it's dirty/hot and smokey just by looking at one Dyno sheet without knowing anything else out about the setup or tune?

This car runs clean and I personally wouldn't have it any other way. In fact with a few setup adjustments I could very easily make this car run as you say "smokey, hot and dirty" at anything less than 18:1 but why the hell would I want to do that!

AFR is only a small part of the overall equation to setting up and tuning the car.

AFR dictates everything. Including how hot and smokey it is. Your comments also directly conflict with the ones below:

The dyno of the eclipse showing the low afr spool isn’t how it needs to be to spool, Just how it makes max torque off boost, like most Di diesels. On road in real life that particular setup sees low 16’s:1 a very slight haze/puff as you stomp the throttle then clears instantly. Loaded on the road or in hilly driving it doesn’t hang or lag in that zone. It isn’t Smokey or hot at any point, Having a turbo that runs low drive pressure helps. A dyno graph is just a sample of how a setup performs at one particular throttle Input.

Have a look at any Gturbo performance tune, they will dip into the low to mid 15’s afr’s on the dyno.

A dyno plot of 18:1 pre-spool will show how well it spools without help.

 

[KiwiDingo]

AFR dictates everything. Including how hot and smokey it is. Your comments also directly conflict with the ones below:

A dyno plot of 18:1 pre-spool will show how well it spools without help.

AFR is just a number, it's handy but it doesn't really tell you much about the rest of the system. You could have wildly different EGT EMP, injection timing, wastegate flap position but still have the exact same AFR number. I've done this more than enough times to know not to focus solely on AFR. Gotta look at the overall picture dude.

I have no idea who @Mcreight911 is so not sure why you're linking his comments to me and what I'm saying?

Funny you mention that about needed help to get spool. I need zero help in that department. I'm actually in the process of trying to slow down my spool rate. Boost means stuff all to me and I couldn't care less how fast I get to peak boost.

 

[Dougal]

AFR is just a number, it's handy but it doesn't really tell you much about the rest of the system. You could have wildly different EGT EMP, injection timing, wastegate flap position but still have the exact same AFR number. I've done this more than enough times to know not to focus solely on AFR. Gotta look at the overall picture dude.

I have no idea who @Mcreight911 is so not sure why you're linking his comments to me and what I'm saying?

Funny you mention that about needed help to get spool. I need zero help in that department. I'm actually in the process of trying to slow down my spool rate. Boost means stuff all to me and I couldn't care less how fast I get to peak boost.

AFR dictates how much oxygen is available to burn the fuel. Go low and it gets smokey. Stay about 18 and it's clean. Measured EGT is the hugely variable thing. Not AFR.

Both you and Mcreight911 are here pimping the same turbos.

 

[KiwiDingo]

AFR dictates how much oxygen is available to burn the fuel. Go low and it gets smokey. Stay about 18 and it's clean. Measured EGT is the hugely variable thing. Not AFR.

Both you and Mcreight911 are here pimping the same turbos.

I can get my car to billow smoke at 18:1 but I can also get it to run completely clean at 16:1. It would all make complete sense if you look at all the other things going on and not just AFR.

Lol going off our recent discussions it's probably not a good idea to start talking about EGT too. You'll most likely disagree with me on that as well. Just a hint, I want my EGT to be as hot as I can safely get it, and get there as quickly as possible but it needs to be stable at that point.

Well that's good then, sounds like @Mcreight911 knows a good thing when he sees it.

 

[Eclipse]

Our Web site has many pages of tech info and a bit of the methodology we use in design. Also hidden in there is results from flow pressure testing on all the 1HD series engine heads to guide us in our wheel design.

Ball bearing Vs journal is debated to death elsewhere. My logic here is without a doubt a good ceramic ball race with correct angular contact for our shaft rpm range and cage tolerance criteria will hands down have superior transitions and response and a faster spool in the early transition period. Then there are little tricks that make a difference like seal clearance and design etc as well as oil volumes. As for life expectancy that's really a product of design speed to load, but more importantly and critically it comes down to balance and harmonics. We use Cimat equipment because they are probably the best at recording fine weigh balance for minimum production criteria which we are. In other words we balance all our turbine and comp wheels to values only seen in the specialist racing fields using low speed phase and coupled balance criteria then high speed core VSR balance procedures. Or in layman terms near to zero's as humanly possible within the different balance machines limits so the bearing has the best chance of staying alive for thousands of hours. Journal bearings are no different in this area better balance the longer it lasts, lubrication criteria being equal.

Not to sure about oil needing to be cleaner for ceramic ball bearings running in 3100 bearing steel housings these product materials are extremely hard compared to 4140 and brass bushes. That been said oil is used as a separation median and to remove load heat. Ceramic balls just dont need oil pressure or the volume to hold the shaft square and central like a journal bearing needs.. Sure the journal clearance is a hell of a lot more than a ceramic ball setup but these days oil has come a hell of a long way in design than it was even 5 years ago net alone 25 years ago when Garrett designed their steel ball system. Besides we are using a very much superior ceramic ball which are infinitely smoother and a lot more round than steel can be. Certainly one could suggest a journal system is more robust, i would suggest they are more forgiving in design tolerances and assembly. But anything else, yeah well a big NO to that, except price of course. A few manufacturing cents for journal bushes compared to a few hundred dollars for a well engineered ceramic ball system.

As said above our focus is not torque/power dyno values thats just a byproduct of our focus design criteria. Every thing we focus on cannot be measured on a chassis dyno. But you can get a pretty good design picture using a turbo test machine that measures everything in absolutes. (pic of the machine are on our web site, it has been extensively modified to measure what we deem as important) the only real world measure of a turbo to our toyota engine is seat of the pants feel or how it feels to drive. Things like linear power feel, instance response right from the first psi of boost pressure, torque feels like its always on song. As said the stuff that matter to driving pleasure.

We can do this by careful wheel / housing design and selection criteria. We use a mixed flow turbine wheel because it has considerable more low shaft speed drive with a weight penalty, but thinking out side the engineering square you can make them near the same weight as a radial wheel of the same dimensions. Then you have blade angle, cup angle and blade count so for diesel unlike petrol designed turbos having boost right from idle you can tailor your design focus to achieve something with low speed drive without too much EMP. Keeping in mind the force required to spin the comp wheel to your critical transition speed to move the PR point across the comp map to produce early volume with density in the spool area.. To do this you require a turbine wheel that is somewhat different to petrol criteria. I think we have achieved this and the driving feel results of the car suggests we have done so.

I dont know everything about turbo air dynamics but i have a few clues and having a go using a life time of experience and numerical data and some engineering specific redneck attitudes. And again we are not using Chinese copy bits shoehorned into various machined housing to suit a Chinese designed turbine wheel. We design our own crap and buy our own moulds and specify our own materials. We use the same engineering methodology Garrett G series and Borg Warner EFR series use except low unit volume and for diesel specific.