The 2H/12H-T/1HZ/1HD-T/1HD-FT Gturbo Alternative Tech Thread

[Dougal]

I can get my car to billow smoke at 18:1

Only by cranking the injection advance to stupid levels.

but I can also get it to run completely clean at 16:1.

No you cannot. You've probably got a terrible view of your exhaust. 16:1 is dirty on all diesels that don't have a DPF.

Here's the other thing you're probably missing. You're near sea-level. Go drive somewhere 1000m higher and your AFR just dropped by another 10%. Spoolup really struggles and you're belching smoke.
Which is why I've been asking if there is a dyno chart showing spoolup with leaner AFR. Because if there isn't you'll never sell any of these turbos to people in Europe or north/south Americans. They just won't work cleanly at their altitudes.

 

[mudgudgeon]

can get my car to billow smoke at 18:1 but I can also get it to run completely clean at 16:1

Smells like BS from here

 

[gerg]

Lots of words, but no convincing data. Too bad.

 

[KiwiDingo]

Only by cranking the injection advance to stupid levels.

No you cannot. You've probably got a terrible view of your exhaust. 16:1 is dirty on all diesels that don't have a DPF.

Here's the other thing you're probably missing. You're near sea-level. Go drive somewhere 1000m higher and your AFR just dropped by another 10%. Spoolup really struggles and you're belching smoke.
Which is why I've been asking if there is a dyno chart showing spoolup with leaner AFR. Because if there isn't you'll never sell any of these turbos to people in Europe or north/south Americans. They just won't work cleanly at their altitudes.

Sorry champ, I have fantastic eye sight and have a great view of my exhaust. I also have a white car and a white boat so black smoke is kinda a bit hard to miss.

1000m! Bloody hell, I wouldn't even know where to drive to get that high or how many days it would take me to get there! I don't really care either, I live my life down at sea level so I don't need to factor any of those conditions to my tune.

I also don't care if people overseas don't buy these or any turbo from Australia. I don't make or sell turbos so not sure how that effects me either?

Smells like BS from here

You're entitled to think as to please. I'm entitled to think the same about your expert opinion.

 

[downunder 80]

Eclipse.
Great to read such a long story of your eclipse turbo.
This still hasnt convinced me I should spend my hard earned money on one.
Reliability is a massive factor for me when I purchase something for my car as important as a turbo.
I would like to ask you a few questions.
How many have you sold since you come on the market?
How many trouble free Kms have your customer reported back?
You are quick to throw other high flowed ct26 turbo manufactures under the bus in saying they run Chinese components. Yet some of the other manufactures running Chinese parts have had their turbos on customers vehicles for many thousands of kms without an issue. I've even heard of them warranting turbos even if it wasn't the turbos fault. Can you say the same? As you would be aware there are Chinese quality and then there is "Chinese quality". Surprisingly how many things or parts of things come out of China these days
You say that you have over 40 years of performance turbo diesel experience. Can I ask what companies you guys worked for before Eclipse?
You say reliability is a key factor in your advertising yet you only have a 12 month warranty like all the other manufacturers.

Looking forward to your replies.

 

[Eclipse]

You must have me confused with a used car salesman mate. Accept my apologies i didn't know i had to present a life story resume here to offer a different alternate turbo. Do you ask the same questions for a Mamba Kinagawa Gturbo Garrett Borg Warner etcetc why am i different.

Asian Manufacturing has come a long way now day thats not the issue. Had you the experience with them you will know they have a tendency to just change crap for no reason. some changes are fine but its not what you asked for. Then you have to do even more R&D to prove the changes. You can get nice precision CNC machining done there if you know what machines they have and choose your company carefully. Same with castings you can get best in the world precision release castings done as well with best practices equal to german and spanish quality, and again you can get those annoying changes that isn't what you wanted. If you leave the design to them and say ask for a CT26 turbine wheel its a lucky dip to get exactly that item, it will be different slight blade angle change a different cup ratio on and on. It will work of course but not as your design model predicts. Most will accept that but i wont which is apart of our methodology. I don't expect you to know this stuff so i generalised China bits.

We are a Australian Company by law we offer a warranty. 12 months is indicative, We honour our warranty before and after that period within reason and its usage. For example i wont discredit a claim during or after that period due to tuning lol. I know too much about turbo failures to be using that BS.

In the end downunder 80 i am not here to convince you to purchase our product, You choose your turbo from your own bias and beliefs or what your heart tells you. I am only here to offer a different alternative as the thread suggests. I haven't filled my words with salesman hype and awesomeness or dyno graphs with questionable lines, but our methodology to offer a product that drive differently to which i believe is nicer to drive and attention to detail in our design concept.

 

[cruiserpilot]

You must have me confused with a used car salesman mate. Accept my apologies i didn't know i had to present a life story resume here to offer a different alternate turbo. Do you ask the same questions for a Mamba Kinagawa Gturbo Garrett Borg Warner etcetc why am i different.

Asian Manufacturing has come a long way now day thats not the issue. Had you the experience with them you will know they have a tendency to just change crap for no reason. some changes are fine but its not what you asked for. Then you have to do even more R&D to prove the changes. You can get nice precision CNC machining done there if you know what machines they have and choose your company carefully. Same with castings you can get best in the world precision release castings done as well with best practices equal to german and spanish quality, and again you can get those alloying changes that isn't what you wanted. If you leave the design to them and say ask for a CT26 turbine wheel its a lucky dip to get exactly that item, it will be different slight blade angle change a different cup ratio on and on. It will work of course but not as your design model predicts. Most will accept that but i wont which is apart of our methodology. I don't expect you to know this stuff so i generalised China bits.

We are a Australian Company by law we offer a warranty. 12 months is indicative, We honour our warranty before and after that period within reason and its usage. For example i wont discredit a claim during or after that period due to tuning lol. I know too much about turbo failures to be using that BS.

In the end downunder 80 i am not here to convince you to purchase our product, You choose your turbo from your own bias and beliefs or what your heart tells you. I am only here to offer a different alternative as the thread suggests. I haven't filled my words with salesman hype and awesomeness or dyno graphs with questionable lines, but our methodology to offer a product that drive differently to which i believe is nicer to drive and attention to detail in our design concept.

Could you post your website or add it to your signature line? I'm just in the process of upgrading 12HT but hadn't followed this
thread as I'm not into the R&D, I just want to buy something that is viable and worth whatever it costs. Didn't come across you
prior to this.

 

[gerg]

Show us the data. You have no reputation here to defend. That's the issue. Your unknown. Without imperial data it's all sales talk. We've heard it before way too much. Post up some videos, show us boost vs drive pressure.. what timing are you running...it can only be to your bennifit. I bet if we were all having a coffee this would be a very calm conversation but writing gets weird fast unfortunately. So for my part sorry for being insulting. I guess I should take the advice I give my kids and only post what I would say to a strangers face.

 

[downunder 80]

You must have me confused with a used car salesman mate. Accept my apologies i didn't know i had to present a life story resume here to offer a different alternate turbo. Do you ask the same questions for a Mamba Kinagawa Gturbo Garrett Borg Warner etcetc why am i different.

First of all I'm not interested in any of the turbo manufacturers you have mentioned. They are not on my short list, yours is. And yes the other manufacturers that are on my list was researched and questions have been asked. Since asking questions to some manufacturers they have been take off my list. I didn't think asking a question on who you have worked for in the past would have been that big of an issue as you're the one claiming you have 40 years experience in the field.
All I am trying to work out is, is your product hype all you say it is especially in the reliability area. Some other turbos have the hype and the followers to back it up but no reliability and some poor after sales. So they don't fit what I want.

Thanks

 

[Dougal]

Not to sure about oil needing to be cleaner for ceramic ball bearings running in 3100 bearing steel housings these product materials are extremely hard compared to 4140 and brass bushes. That been said oil is used as a separation median and to remove load heat. Ceramic balls just dont need oil pressure or the volume to hold the shaft square and central like a journal bearing needs.. Sure the journal clearance is a hell of a lot more than a ceramic ball setup but these days oil has come a hell of a long way in design than it was even 5 years ago net alone 25 years ago when Garrett designed their steel ball system. Besides we are using a very much superior ceramic ball which are infinitely smoother and a lot more round than steel can be. Certainly one could suggest a journal system is more robust, i would suggest they are more forgiving in design tolerances and assembly. But anything else, yeah well a big NO to that, except price of course. A few manufacturing cents for journal bushes compared to a few hundred dollars for a well engineered ceramic ball system.

The issue with oil cleanliness is simple. Journal bearing (aka bushing) turbochargers run a thick film of oil that can pass abrasive soot particles without any issue. They just pass on through.

Ball bearings run with an oil film so thin that it is bridged by soot particles. They are bumps in the road for bearings spinning at 100k+ rpm that get crushed and cause damage to balls and races while doing so.
Not an issue on petrol cars, but a huge issue on diesels. Particularly older mechanical injection diesels which don't run that clean.

The other issue with ball bearings is when they collapse it's all over immediately. Journal bearings have a much slower and more predictable failure.

BTW I've never heard of 3100 bearing steel and www.matweb.com hasn't either. All the ceramic hybrid bearings I sell use AISI 52100 steel races. Same as normal all-steel bearings.

 

[slosh]

It's good to see people like Eclipse having a go at developing a new turbo for these engines. It's great that he is making it without out sourcing parts to China too.

But if I were in the market for a $2k+ turbo, it would still be a GTurbo.

What I would really like to see though, is something 90% as good as a GTurbo for half the price. A pump that offers quality components capable of running to 25 psi without exploding. I reckon these would sell well.

So my advice to those building up a turbo package for these engines is either go cheaper than Graeme, or truly go all out and develop a compound setup that would command the dollars and respect that you are seeking.

 

[Dougal]

go all out and develop a compound setup that would command the dollars and respect that you are seeking.

Damn. There's a market opening.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Damn. There's a market opening.

Hell yeah! I'd just about take out another credit card for that! lol

 

[GooSe77]

I'm thinking if this could be a good deal for that cash ?
Mamba 12ht Ct15b
I've been triyng to source a good 1HDFTE turbo but only found junk ...
Chasing faster spool, a bit more torqe and lower EGT

 

[Feistl]

Well for what it’s worth I have purchased 2 Mamba turbos (one for my 12HT and one for my 1HDT) and while I haven’t actually gotten the project to the point where I can drive them I must say I’m very impressed with the quality of the kits so far. Turbos look very high quality, all the fittings fit/are the right type and no issue bolting them up to exhaust manifolds. That said I did need to make a custom mount to support them....

Anyway for me it came down to price... mamba is around $1000aud while a Gturbo is $2500+aud. While I would love a Gturbo, not sure I can justify the $1500 extra (I feel $1500 of mods in other areas would prove better value for money).
Anyway I should have the 1HDT running in a couple of weeks so I’ll post some results.

Edit: not sure about you guys at altitude, but I genuinely have to ask... how much power do you actually need? (That’s coming from a guy with a 600hp daily driver). For me personally I don’t feel any of my cruisers (40s, HJ61 or HDJ80R) are particularly happy at speed in the bends and as long as I can comfortably keep up with traffic I’m happy. Trying to run 25+psi with a maxed out pump seems like a little overkill?


Cheers

 

[IanB]

Well for what it’s worth I have purchased 2 Mamba turbos (one for my 12HT and one for my 1HDT) and while I haven’t actually gotten the project to the point where I can drive them I must say I’m very impressed with the quality of the kits so far. Turbos look very high quality, all the fittings fit/are the right type and no issue bolting them up to exhaust manifolds. That said I did need to make a custom mount to support them....

Anyway for me it came down to price... mamba is around $1000aud while a Gturbo is $2500+aud. While I would love a Gturbo, not sure I can justify the $1500 extra (I feel $1500 of mods in other areas would prove better value for money).
Anyway I should have the 1HDT running in a couple of weeks so I’ll post some results.

Edit: not sure about you guys at altitude, but I genuinely have to ask... how much power do you actually need? (That’s coming from a guy with a 600hp daily driver). For me personally I don’t feel any of my cruisers (40s, HJ61 or HDJ80R) are particularly happy at speed in the bends and as long as I can comfortably keep up with traffic I’m happy. Trying to run 25+psi with a maxed out pump seems like a little overkill?


Cheers

With altitude comes grades, sometimes in the Canadian Rockies you're climbing 5-6% grades with the turbo pushing max boost for 6+ min at a time, the more power you have the less hard things need to work.

 

[Dougal]

With altitude comes grades, sometimes in the Canadian Rockies you're climbing 5-6% grades with the turbo pushing max boost for 6+ min at a time, the more power you have the less hard things need to work.

Plus leaving behind 20-30 year newer cars on hills is fun!

 

[Mcreight911]

Plus leaving behind 20-30 year newer cars on hills is fun!

The looks on their face as you sale on past, priceless

 

[Mcreight911]

Well for what it’s worth I have purchased 2 Mamba turbos (one for my 12HT and one for my 1HDT) and while I haven’t actually gotten the project to the point where I can drive them I must say I’m very impressed with the quality of the kits so far. Turbos look very high quality, all the fittings fit/are the right type and no issue bolting them up to exhaust manifolds. That said I did need to make a custom mount to support them....

Anyway for me it came down to price... mamba is around $1000aud while a Gturbo is $2500+aud. While I would love a Gturbo, not sure I can justify the $1500 extra (I feel $1500 of mods in other areas would prove better value for money).
Anyway I should have the 1HDT running in a couple of weeks so I’ll post some results.

Edit: not sure about you guys at altitude, but I genuinely have to ask... how much power do you actually need? (That’s coming from a guy with a 600hp daily driver). For me personally I don’t feel any of my cruisers (40s, HJ61 or HDJ80R) are particularly happy at speed in the bends and as long as I can comfortably keep up with traffic I’m happy. Trying to run 25+psi with a maxed out pump seems like a little overkill?


Cheers

I’ve tuned a few mamba setups and used kinugawa parts while experimenting. There are small differences between them and the genuine components they’re modeled off, not always noticeable by eye. It’s not uncommon to find small casting imperfections in the housings, which can usually be corrected.

I’ve also fitted and tuned turbos from UFI, turbo care, Gturbo, garret, mhi and ihi. Comparing mamba to say a UFI is a bit like comparing a Ford falcon to an Audi Both build to a price point .

Mambas can/will make good power but Usually need a bit lower afr/more fuel for the same spool and power of a similar power rated more expensive turbo . It’s the little details that count, the 1%ers . That’s where you have to decide what you want, how much you want to pay and what you consider good value, if that matters to you. If the mamba fits the budget and performs as you want then your winning.

 

[tweeek]

I’ve tuned a few mamba setups and used kinugawa parts while experimenting. There are small differences between them and the genuine components they’re modeled off, not always noticeable by eye. It’s not uncommon to find small casting imperfections in the housings, which can usually be corrected.

I’ve also fitted and tuned turbos from UFI, turbo care, Gturbo, garret, mhi and ihi. Comparing mamba to say a UFI is a bit like comparing a Ford falcon to an Audi Both build to a price point .

Mambas can/will make good power but Usually need a bit lower afr/more fuel for the same spool and power of a similar power rated more expensive turbo . It’s the little details that count, the 1%ers . That’s where you have to decide what you want, how much you want to pay and what you consider good value, if that matters to you. If the mamba fits the budget and performs as you want then your winning.

Performance aside, is their build quality sufficient enough that one would expect a long service life and not be worried about grenading chunks of aluminum into the engine?