The 2H/12H-T/1HZ/1HD-T/1HD-FT Gturbo Alternative Tech Thread (5 Viewers)

[Mcreight911]

Forgetting what drives the compressor for a minute to get optimal performance and spool from the mmp turbo or any other turbo with that size compressor your goning to need to optimise your intake .

I see it mentioned that the power graph of the mmp setup also had a custom airbox .

This goes a long way to helping spool, early torque rise and give your car that early wave of torque feel without Having to put your foot to the floor just to get the thing moving.

I still believe there's better performance to be had from a standard setup though.

 

[vwluv10338]

Forgetting what drives the compressor for a minute to get optimal performance and spool from the mmp turbo or any other turbo with that size compressor your goning to need to optimise your intake .

I see it mentioned that the power graph of the mmp setup also had a custom airbox .

This goes a long way to helping spool, early torque rise and give your car that early wave of torque feel without Having to put your foot to the floor just to get the thing moving.

I still believe there's better performance to be had from a standard setup though.

I posted a pic in the air box thread but I was thinking the same thing and just bought a 6.4l F250 air box with a huge filter for $50. I would love a Moonlight Fab air box but apparently these flow enough for the ford guys so for $50 it's worth a shot.

 

[diby 2000]

Forgetting what drives the compressor for a minute to get optimal performance and spool from the mmp turbo or any other turbo with that size compressor your goning to need to optimise your intake .

I see it mentioned that the power graph of the mmp setup also had a custom airbox .

This goes a long way to helping spool, early torque rise and give your car that early wave of torque feel without Having to put your foot to the floor just to get the thing moving.

I still believe there's better performance to be had from a standard setup though.

I'm told it was a stock airbox, modified to a 4" exit and 4" to the turbo. I'm not sure exactly how or where the 4" reduced to 3" to fit onto the turbo.

I am currently running a 4" in and out Radius airbox and snorkel, with a 4" elbow from the box down to a 4" to 3" reducing elbow onto the turbo. I then have a partial custom Safari intercooler with the stock cold side pipework and stock intake manifold. I'll see if I can get a pic.

 

[diby 2000]

 

[Dougal]

"Generally "I like to see drive pressure below 1.4:1 with waste gate turbos . But some will run to 1.8-2:1 without being detrimental to performance . But if you can get the same performance from less boost/drive pressure then why not .

At what operating point?

See the thing with drive pressure ratios is they're dynamic. They're lowest when you've got highest EGT and lowest rpm for target boost. As rpm climbs, so must drive pressure (for a fixed size turbine with a wastegate).

For example. 3.9L diesel with TD04HL-19T and 30psi boost.
At best point (just hit target boost at 1500rpm) drive pressure is about 26psi.
At 1800rpm they're level (30psi and 30psi).
At 2600rpm (max power) you need 37psi drive pressure to maintain 30psi boost.

It's dynamic and always changing. There is no such thing as a fixed ratio.

 

[Mcreight911]

At what operating point

 

[Mcreight911]

As a peak .

I know drive pressure climbs . but you can limit how far it goes .

I get the impression no mater what I say your mind is made up on the matter . Which is where I'd normal share the raw data . But I won't on this topic as it's not my data to share and could Land me in hot water.

I hope u do revisit the drive pressure logging and add shaft speed to you info .

 

[Dougal]

As a peak .

Peak when? Cold acceleration? Max boost at max rpm? Max power conditions?
All those operating points at sea-level winter or max expected altitude in summer?

I know drive pressure climbs . but you can limit how far it goes .

You can only limit how far drive pressure goes (absolute) by limiting boost (absolute) through wastegating. That's it. Otherwise you need to physically change turbo geometry which has it's own problems.

Further, as RPM and turbine flow increases, drive to boost ratios get worse. If you want to limit drive pressure then you have to wastegate more and more with climbing RPM. Which drops boost more and more and while your absolute numbers might be lower, the ratios don't change much.

You get the best drive/boost ratio at full rpm by keeping the wastegate shut and limiting fuelling to keep the compressor on the map. But power production sucks.

I get the impression no mater what I say your mind is made up on the matter . Which is where I'd normal share the raw data . But I won't on this topic as it's not my data to share and could Land me in hot water.

I hope u do revisit the drive pressure logging and add shaft speed to you info .

Well yes because the laws of thermodynamics are pretty rigid things. If you can find and prove any exception to them then you'll be receiving the next Nobel prize.

I really have no idea what you're getting at here. It's like you're hinting at some great untapped secret through setup that can magically alter the boost to drive pressure relationship (which is incredibly complex) or the shaft speed to PR and flow relationship (which is a lot more straight-forward).
I can assure you there is no magic. Anyone who claims there is is either mistaken or bullshitting.

Drive pressure is required to create the pressure difference and expansion for turbines to operate. Different turbines have different performance which results in different turbine maps. These maps relate intake conditions to delta P and power produced. Wastegating cannot and does not alter those maps. It simply moves the operating point on the map. More wastegating = less flow through turbine and less power from the turbine.

This is exactly the same discussion I've had with many proponents of "wastegate porting". Which; BTW; is a complete waste of time unless your problem is too much boost with the flap wide open.

Shaft speed creates the compressor tip speed which creates the radial flow that creates the pressure ratios. If you drop shaft speed without changing intake conditions then you're also dropping P.R.

There is no magic. Turbo sizing is all about picking the compromises you can live with.

Did you notice that the worst ratio in my above example was 37/30 = 1.23?
Best ratio 26/30 = 0.87
Would you like to comment on that?

 

[Mcreight911]

Max drive pressure on a hot turbine under a full throttle loaded dyno run.
Part throttle often sees better than 1:1


Nothing magical nothing new all figured out long before me All I claim is emp needs to be concidered with how the waste gate is setup, blindly cranking up a wastegate to make more boost with no regards to other factors is not the best option . That's All I've been trying to say .
You only need to limit drive emp if it's hurting power.

With a standard intake on a td42 with a 300hp pump and turbo Combo things get crazy

With the setup I was tuning I could see boost stay the same with a change in shaft speed .

If you've never seen it then chances are everything else your setup is still a good match or your turbos a better match. For someone as calculated as yourself you probably don't deal with sub optimal setups . I'd expect you would be close to the money before you even start testing

If someone had their mmp waste gate cranked up that much that it never opened or didn't open enough, chances are They'd never be able to fuel it up enough to make the advertised power because egt would get to high even with boost creep
But it will need enough tension to make boost .

I have had combos so incorrectly setup that even with 21+:1 afrs egt has been extreme . Yes There are other variables too but when drive pressure is quite high egt can be to

Optimise the lot
(boost, emp and fueling) to find The balance that makes the best power and torque for your desired rpm range.

How your td04hl setup performs is excellent, very well setup if that's also how it makes the best power and torque over your desired rpm range .

 

[Dougal]

Max drive pressure on a hot turbine under a full throttle loaded dyno run.
Part throttle often sees better than 1:1

At what rpm?
I've said probably a dozen times now that drive pressure is dynamic and varies with RPM. Yet you keep missing that out in your replies.

Nothing magical nothing new all figured out long before me All I claim is emp needs to be concidered with how the waste gate is setup, blindly cranking up a wastegate to make more boost with no regards to other factors is not the best option . That's All I've been trying to say .
You only need to limit drive emp if it's hurting power.

The wastegate has exactly one job. To control max boost. It can only reduce drive pressure by reducing boost. In almost all situations that's a bad thing and exactly what you want to avoid.

With a standard intake on a td42 with a 300hp pump and turbo Combo things get crazy

With the setup I was tuning I could see boost stay the same with a change in shaft speed .

I'd like to see you plot that on a compressor map.

If someone had their mmp waste gate cranked up that much that it never opened or didn't open enough, chances are They'd never be able to fuel it up enough to make the advertised power because egt would get to high even with boost creep
But it will need enough tension to make boost .

It might crimp power. But the low and mid end would be unaffected and the low to mid range is where some people are struggling. A wastegate closed dosen't spike EGT. It creates more boost which depresses EGT at higher rpm.

How your td04hl setup performs is excellent, very well setup if that's also how it makes the best power and torque over your desired rpm range .

Those are calculation results, my TDO4HL is still in the box and I need to make sheetmetal mods before I can fit in a big enough air-cleaner. The calculations though have proven accurate enough on all other matches. Both for pressures and torque/power.
I'm still running the T25. Which still does better than 1:1 (20/20) at 1800-2000rpm at high load. Restrictive exhaust and undersized air-cleaner make it a waste of time above about 2500rpm. With better plumbing the 40mm compressor would be good to 3000rpm max power.

The TD04HL-19T will beat it by about 5% turbine efficiency and a few percent compressor. Which both improve drive/boost ratios and spool. While having a much wider compressor map which will help at altitude.

Calculated results for 1HD are interesting. Even the stock CT26 should just sneak under 1:1 below 2000rpm if the airfilter is clean. I'd be fitting a TD05H-16G6 with 7cm housing and front mount intercooler.
At 22psi you should have ~600Nm by 1400rpm winding out to about 180kw.

TD06H-18G will give you much less low end, about 800rpm slower to max torque but another 20kw up top on the same boost.

 

[diby 2000]

Calculated results for 1HD are interesting. Even the stock CT26 should just sneak under 1:1 below 2000rpm if the airfilter is clean.

I'm not sure if there are different ct26s but I never saw 1:1 with mine on a 1HD-FT. The boost was fairly consistently 1-2 psi lower than the EMP spooling at 17:1.

Edit. Fixed my quote

 

[Dougal]

Calculated results for 1HD are interesting. Even the stock CT26 should just sneak under 1:1 below 2000rpm if the airfilter is clean.

I'm not sure if there are different ct26s but I never saw 1:1 with mine on a 1HD-FT. The boost was fairly consistently 1-2 psi lower than the EMP spooling at 17:1.[/QUOTE]

Yeah several variations, including turbine housings. Were you able to measure on a sustained pull (a minute or so under full load)?

 

[diby 2000]

Not low rpm as the auto would kick back a gear if under load.

 

[vwluv10338]

So this was sent to me on 8/23 about my replacement turbo. Have not heard anything since then. Sent a message two days ago looking for an update.

"Okay Eric, just had an issue yesterday with the balancing, it spiked up to 3 g at 75,000 rpm so I have stripped the CHRA again and began dynamically balancing the turbine wheel again. I will have a better idea this afternoon. I have booked DHL for collection on Monday to give me some time in case I run into issues today."

 

[mudgudgeon]

That's lame. Time to ask for a refund dude.

 

[vwluv10338]

That's lame. Time to ask for a refund dude.

I brought that up when I was super pissed when I was on vacation

 

[mudgudgeon]

I brought that up when I was super pissed when I was on vacation

So, to read between the lines, he wouldn't come to the party?

 

[vwluv10338]

So, to read between the lines, he wouldn't come to the party?

Well at the time I was supposed to have a replacement sent out by the end of the week. That was on July 27th

 

[Mcreight911]

@Dougal
The example I gave sees max drive pressure ratio (1.4:1) around 3600rpm on a dyno run with hot turbine . Same setup with hi rpm pump sees max (1.8:1) at 4800rpm . I'm not sure why u think I don't understand drive pressure constantly changes depending on load and rpm. As you know Other driving conditions can see higher spikes . Many other setup variable will effect it too

 

[NielsC]

I found these "alternatives" that I have not seen mentioned here before in this thread:
1. Arashi Arashi turbo, looks to be japanese ?
2. Wink 4x4 based in the Netherlands Wink 4x4 - Engineered Performance I contacted him and he claims 20 psi between 1500-2000RPM depending on tune, takes 30psi safely, 360 thrust bearing, extended tip, milled wheels instead of cast like OEM, ...
He says much like a Gturbo but at a much better price (for us in Europe anyway).
3. All american imports also in the Netherlands, developed a replacement CT26 that is even approved by Toyota Europa. It is supposed to be a hybrid 1HD-FTE turbo that is bolt on HDT/HDFT. But still using OEM / old technology. There is more info on Mud but can't find it.