Shock madness

[baldilocks]

That’s nice!! I just want a budget option for longer shocks. And paranoid about the “L” s being stiffer since I’m ok with the ride. But maybe I’m weird it could be softer. But trying to figure. Was the doetsch shocks just too soft for people?

What springs do you currently run? They might not be a good match for 6” shocks. How much “rock crawling do you do? Maybe consider installing diff lockers if you plan to run trails like the one that triggered the start of this thread. I don’t think any suspension set up we can call “long travel” for an 80, alone, would have made a life altering difference during your recent trail experience.

My perception here is that your rig see’s a lot of road duty and is used infrequently off road. You have stated that you didn’t like having no front sway bar on your XJ which means you won’t like it on your 80 either. Someone already posted up about the reality of tearing sway bar brackets from the front axle and this becomes more possible with longer shocks. I did that once many years ago, it does happen. The LCP sway bar disconnects are gonna be needed to keep that from happening. And don’t forget an extended front soft brake hose…..

Bite the bullet and get diff lockers, traction problem solved.

 

[Marvelicious]

If you run smaller than 37” tires you may need to drop the front bump stops an inch. I’ve been running 37’s since 2017 with 6” lift shock front only and the tires dictated how far I dropped the bump stops not the shocks.

Also consider that you run the risk of completely unseating a single rate spring when the shock is at full droop. 6” lift shocks are normally recommended to be used with long travel, dual rate springs when the advertised lift is something much less than 6”, say like 3”.

Yeah, not to completely derail the OP's thread, but I'm pretty much running the same setup - OME 2.5" and 315s. I'm pretty happy with the ride height and tire size, but I'm sure I'm leaving some suspension travel on the table. There are a few other things to do, but I'm trying to get a feel for where I want to wind up before I waste money on parts I'm not going to be happy with. I'm definitely not afraid to massage the sheet metal a little to get a bit more clearance if needed (within reason). Spring retainers are a simple enough solution if I do run longer shocks.

 

[06reg4x4]

Yeah, not to completely derail the OP's thread, but I'm pretty much running the same setup - OME 2.5" and 315s. I'm pretty happy with the ride height and tire size, but I'm sure I'm leaving some suspension travel on the table. There are a few other things to do, but I'm trying to get a feel for where I want to wind up before I waste money on parts I'm not going to be happy with. I'm definitely not afraid to massage the sheet metal a little to get a bit more clearance if needed (within reason). Spring retainers are a simple enough solution if I do run longer shocks.

This^

 

[06reg4x4]

What springs do you currently run? They might not be a good match for 6” shocks. How much “rock crawling do you do? Maybe consider installing diff lockers if you plan to run trails like the one that triggered the start of this thread. I don’t think any suspension set up we can call “long travel” for an 80, alone, would have made a life altering difference during your recent trail experience.

My perception here is that your rig see’s a lot of road duty and is used infrequently off road. You have stated that you didn’t like having no front sway bar on your XJ which means you won’t like it on your 80 either. Someone already posted up about the reality of tearing sway bar brackets from the front axle and this becomes more possible with longer shocks. I did that once many years ago, it does happen. The LCP sway bar disconnects are gonna be needed to keep that from happening. And don’t forget an extended front soft brake hose…..

Bite the bullet and get diff lockers, traction problem solved.

On the east coast I wheeled pretty regularly in “season” now in az I haven’t been going as frequently. But plan too. I think I’ve settled on just doing “L”’s and get lcp disconnect setup for the front.
I ran open open is slippery east coast shale dirt mud mess for years. Before adding something. I’m just not a fan of lifting tires. Rather the down travel to get it done.

 

[baldilocks]

Yeah, not to completely derail the OP's thread, but I'm pretty much running the same setup - OME 2.5" and 315s. I'm pretty happy with the ride height and tire size, but I'm sure I'm leaving some suspension travel on the table. There are a few other things to do, but I'm trying to get a feel for where I want to wind up before I waste money on parts I'm not going to be happy with. I'm definitely not afraid to massage the sheet metal a little to get a bit more clearance if needed (within reason). Spring retainers are a simple enough solution if I do run longer shocks.

The idea is to never completely unload a spring.

 

[Marvelicious]

The idea is to never completely unload a spring.

Is this for the sake of the spring? Because I can't see much difference between travel being limited by the spring vs the shock as far as traction goes.

 

[JoeCova]

Yeah, not to completely derail the OP's thread, but I'm pretty much running the same setup - OME 2.5" and 315s. I'm pretty happy with the ride height and tire size, but I'm sure I'm leaving some suspension travel on the table. There are a few other things to do, but I'm trying to get a feel for where I want to wind up before I waste money on parts I'm not going to be happy with. I'm definitely not afraid to massage the sheet metal a little to get a bit more clearance if needed (within reason). Spring retainers are a simple enough solution if I do run longer shocks.

It's a game on centimeters really and in most cases not worth making significant changes unless you overhaul your suspension.

 

[baldilocks]

Is this for the sake of the spring? Because I can't see much difference between travel being limited by the spring vs the shock as far as traction goes.

When a coil spring becomes completely unloaded the associated tire will be doing nothing for you in the way of traction and vehicle stability is compromised.

Lockers and ground clearance are the primary attributes of very capable 4x4. A 3 link suspension could make a noticeable difference on extremely uneven terrain but the tiny bit we get out of a 2” longer shock in conjunction with an otherwise stock 80 series front leading arm set up is inconsequential compared to what lockers offer us. Adding larger tires for increased minimum ground clearance is more icing on the cake. Fortunately, longer shocks are relatively inexpensive so why not do that too as long as we keep the coils captured between the frame and axle and working for us.

 

[Marvelicious]

It's a game on centimeters really and in most cases not worth making significant changes unless you overhaul your suspension.

Parts wear out and get replaced. I don't need to just fire up the credit card and order everything to redo the whole suspension (and probably wind up walking around a box of parts I don't have time to install). If I can be smart about my goals, hopefully I can upgrade one or two parts at a time. Shocks (and progressive springs of some kind) are in the cards eventually. One centimeter at a time is less satisfying than... well, we'll keep it PG... but I don't mind incremental improvements as long as they are improvements. I get the feeling that the OP is in the same boat: I have a working rig and I'm not dissatisfied with it, but that doesn't mean I'm done changing things.

When a coil spring becomes completely unloaded the associated tire will be doing nothing for you in the way of traction and vehicle stability is compromised.

Lockers and ground clearance are the primary attributes of very capable 4x4. A 3 link suspension could make a noticeable difference on extremely uneven terrain but the tiny bit we get out of a 2” longer shock in conjunction with an otherwise stock 80 series front leading arm set up is inconsequential compared to what lockers offers us. Adding larger tires for increased minimum ground clearance is more icing on the cake. Fortunately, longer shocks are relatively inexpensive so why not do that too as long as we keep the coils captured between the frame and axle and working for us.

Right, I get all of that. This isn't my first wheeling rig, though my past experience is with leafs (SAS'd hilux stuff). It sounds like I'd be better off doing shocks and springs on just one end at a time rather than shocks then springs, if I'm looking to tackle smaller projects rather than a whole overhaul.

 

[baldilocks]

Parts wear out and get replaced. I don't need to just fire up the credit card and order everything to redo the whole suspension (and probably wind up walking around a box of parts I don't have time to install). If I can be smart about my goals, hopefully I can upgrade one or two parts at a time. Shocks (and progressive springs of some kind) are in the cards eventually. One centimeter at a time is less satisfying than... well, we'll keep it PG... but I don't mind incremental improvements as long as they are improvements. I get the feeling that the OP is in the same boat: I have a working rig and I'm not dissatisfied with it, but that doesn't mean I'm done changing things.

Right, I get all of that. This isn't my first wheeling rig, though my past experience is with leafs (SAS'd hilux stuff). It sounds like I'd be better off doing shocks and springs on just one end at a time rather than shocks then springs, if I'm looking to tackle smaller projects rather than a whole overhaul.

Yes unless your new front springs are significantly shorter or taller than your current rear springs and vice-versa.

 

[Box Rocket]

Best info so far in this thread is from Baldilocks IMO. Having run almost every OME setup available for the 80 for 15+ years (I've not owned BP51s) I can tell you that even with the "L" shocks you'll be leaving suspension travel on the table. At a minimum you will see at least 2" more droop beyond what the L shocks offers before the radius arms become the limiter. If you want BIG flex from the front end then a 3-link is the best bet. But since it sounds like you're just looking for an affordable shock to allow more flex then I agree with the suggestions to go with the 6" Dobinson yellow shock. You'll need to extend your bumpstops to limit compression a bit but you'll gain a few more inches of droop. The yellow Dobinsons are probably the cheapest option with the biggest increase in flex. Performance from the yellow shocks is marginal but works for most average users. There's a number of high end options for premium performance but it comes with a premium price tag also.

FWIW, the last OME setup I ran was OME J springs and L shocks with a 1.5" coil spacer. When I switched to a different (more high end) setup I gained almost 6" of travel with both swaybars connected. I know a lot of people don't run swaybars but I am not a fan and almost always run both swaybars. Occasionally I will disconnect the front if I am somewhere that I need every last inch of travel. LCP disconnects are a great solution for the front. I run a 30mm rear swaybar that is a big improvement in handling and doesn't limit rear flex much at all. HD swaybar links are a must with larger rear swaybars.

On the topic of swaybars, do you have swaybar extensions with your current setup? If you don't have extensions/spacers then the swaybars themselves could be a significant limiter of your flex.

 

[Marvelicious]

FWIW, the last OME setup I ran was OME J springs and L shocks with a 1.5" coil spacer. When I switched to a different (more high end) setup I gained almost 6" of travel with both swaybars connected. I know a lot of people don't run swaybars but I am not a fan and almost always run both swaybars. Occasionally I will disconnect the front if I am somewhere that I need every last inch of travel. LCP disconnects are a great solution for the front. I run a 30mm rear swaybar that is a big improvement in handling and doesn't limit rear flex much at all. HD swaybar links are a must with larger rear swaybars.

On the topic of swaybars, do you have swaybar extensions with your current setup? If you don't have extensions/spacers then the swaybars themselves could be a significant limiter of your flex.

It's funny, a stiffer rear swaybar would seem counterproductive, but the geometry of the rear seems to work well enough that the swaybar doesn't limit flex, so the stiffer bar can't hurt anything. As far as road manners go, I assume that the stiffer rear bar tends to limit body roll a bit and bias the handling a little more toward oversteer vs understeer. Not that I'm planning on drifting my cruiser, but I'm sure that feels better to drive.

I have some kind of drop bracket on the front of mine (PO installed and it's pouring out, so I'm not going to crawl under and look), but that's one of the areas I plan to address before I go after shocks/springs. I'll take a look at the 30mm bar and HD links.

 

[AgentOrange]

It's funny, a stiffer rear swaybar would seem counterproductive, but the geometry of the rear seems to work well enough that the swaybar doesn't limit flex, so the stiffer bar can't hurt anything. As far as road manners go, I assume that the stiffer rear bar tends to limit body roll a bit and bias the handling a little more toward oversteer vs understeer. Not that I'm planning on drifting my cruiser, but I'm sure that feels better to drive.

I have some kind of drop bracket on the front of mine (PO installed and it's pouring out, so I'm not going to crawl under and look), but that's one of the areas I plan to address before I go after shocks/springs. I'll take a look at the 30mm bar and HD links.

I don't run a front sway bar but do run a stiffer rear bar with LCP links. The rear being a touch stiffer seems to make the front do more work as the rear is very capable of flexing a lot.

 

[Box Rocket]

It's funny, a stiffer rear swaybar would seem counterproductive, but the geometry of the rear seems to work well enough that the swaybar doesn't limit flex, so the stiffer bar can't hurt anything. As far as road manners go, I assume that the stiffer rear bar tends to limit body roll a bit and bias the handling a little more toward oversteer vs understeer. Not that I'm planning on drifting my cruiser, but I'm sure that feels better to drive.

I have some kind of drop bracket on the front of mine (PO installed and it's pouring out, so I'm not going to crawl under and look), but that's one of the areas I plan to address before I go after shocks/springs. I'll take a look at the 30mm bar and HD links.

Road manners improve A LOT with the larger rear swaybar with a noticeable reduction in body roll. Also great in the dirt if you like more spirited dirt driving. Definitely worth a look IMO.

Not sure what's pouring out of your swaybar drop brackets but that doesn't sound good. Take a look at the rear also for extended brackets. If you have an earlier truck it will be a vertical strap on the side of the frame (outside), and the newer trucks have a bracket on the bottom of the frame. The ones on the bottom can be addressed with taller brackets or with longer links that connect to the swaybar.

This is the newer style with extended links.

This is a stock rear link for comparison

This is (not a great photo) but shows a stock rear bracket, early style, along with the extended ones for comparison.

These are definitely things I'd check in your case to make sure you don't have stock brackets that are causing the swaybar to limit flex.

Another thing you can do is clearance your front radius arms, if you have stock arms. Or get aftermarket arms. Most aftermarket arms will have better clearance in the axle brackets and won't bind as soon when flexed. If you have aftermarket arms then great. If you still have stock arms you can grind the corners off the eyes a bit to gain a little bit of room for when the eye twists in the bracket when flexed. This is where the radius arms will limit front flex first.

Here's a stock radius arm that has not been clearanced making contact in the bracket and limiting flex.
37’s and bumpstops by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

This is one of my radius arms after I ground off the corners of the eyes.
Untitled by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

Grinding the arms isn't a silver bullet by any stretch of the imagination but it's nearly free and does seem to help let the front move a bit farther before binding if you are still running factory radius arms. (FWIW, this photo is with both swaybars still connnected, and with 12" travel shocks that have full range of motion)
IMG_0632 by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

 

[Marvelicious]

t sure what's pouring out of your swaybar drop brackets but that doesn't sound good.

It's the sky that's pouring. We're having a very "Pacific Northwest" kind of a day and I don't feel like getting soggy. I know the arms are roughly parallel with the ground in its current configuration, but I don't remember how exactly they were attached. It's a '96, so the later style.

This is one of my radius arms after I ground off the corners of the eyes.
Untitled by Adam Tolman, on Flickr

I like that a lot. Simple and effective.

 

[06reg4x4]

My front sway bar is dropped. Still need to get the long links for the rear. Grinding the arms I’ve heard is very much worth it. I think I’ll just the L’s though I want more. And look into a slinky setup up later. And lcp disconnect setup.

 

[LandLocked93]

Bite the bullet and get diff lockers, traction problem solved.

@baldilocks finally said it before I was definitely going to.
Don't know your story OP, but the thread started as a devolved discussion about shocks.
On an OD 80 series FFS.
Yes shocks matter, but only eventually. And then only largely for on-road performance.
OP, get accel pedal-controlled power to all 4, then add-to as necessary.

 

[Marvelicious]

I think that's the one thing the OP and I have drastically different. I had specific criteria when I shopped for this rig and lockers were very near the top of the list. I'm mostly trying to get a feel for the good bang-for-buck upgrade path and this thread has been a pretty good rundown. The faq and stickies are great, but a guy only absorbs so much in a sitting.

Something I've learned over the years: different vehicles lend themselves to different paths, for instance, back when all the parts were cheap and common, you could do a SAS on the mini trucks, drop in a t-case doubler and be pretty capable without spending a fortune, but the cost and work involved started going straight up from there. These 80s are really capable to start with (especially locked), but there are obviously upgrades that don't cost a fortune to get a bit more out of them. Once you start looking at truly high-end shocks, major drivetrain swaps, etc... you quickly hit a point where if you really want to wheel on a higher level, you probably would have been better off starting with a tube buggy.

 

[LandLocked93]

... Once you start looking at truly high-end shocks, major drivetrain swaps, etc... you quickly hit a point where if you really want to wheel on a higher level, you probably would have been better off starting with a tube buggy.

Even still ... would a street noob know how to rightly pilot such a rig? Likely not.
To even know the diff between a street-legal sleeper locked SUV and an outright rock bouncer ... most would point out that the 'rock banger' is only suitable for warmer climates, short jaunts, and trailering. lol

 

[Marvelicious]

Even still ... would a street noob know how to rightly pilot such a rig? Likely not.
To even know the diff between a street-legal sleeper locked SUV and an outright rock bouncer ... most would point out that the 'rock banger' is only suitable for warmer climates, short jaunts, and trailering. lol

Oh yeah, I'm not suggesting the tube buggy is a good thing for most people - exactly the opposite. What I'm saying is that at a certain point you've left street-legal sleeper behind anyway. It's better to have a clear idea of what you want to be capable of in the end so your wish list doesn't creep beyond your needs.

Meanwhile the noob isn't going to get any more out of the ultimate, fantasy, tricked out 80 than he would out of a fairly stock 80 with a "lift kit" - they're both probably going to wind up on their roof.