Seeking Advice for Suspension Upgrade

[OlYellr]

I don't know what that is.

4PlusProducts | FJ40 | Suspension Parts | U-Bolt Flip Kit - http://4plusproducts.com/fj40uboltflipkits.html

basically inverted bolts etc so they don't stick down and snag stuff.

(Dave makes great stuff too and, IMO, always great to support a sole proprietor that makes great stuff for our cruisers)

Edited - I did trim my bump stops to accommodate the articulation change with the lost height of the top plate of this kit, but that was not a big deal (got aftermarket from CityRacer vs trim OEM bump stops).

 

[wngrog]

Don't know how I missed this thread. Well never mind, I do.

I learned about shims on @wngrog build thread & I did the 4* shims this year when putting on hardware. What a difference in drivability. I did the Dobinsons setup and I am the other unhappy Dobinsons owner @RevISK mentioned earlier in this thread. I have the IMS shock and I like them = I love a softer ride. I had OME heavy - and I got mediums of Dobinsons springs.

What I don't like are the springs. I am filing a warranty claim against Dobinsons today. The military wrap on all of them are too large and they are constantly rubbing/touching the frame/bracket. On my passenger rear, you can see where the wrap has rubbed the metal of the fixed pin bracket and it stressed the frame (IE I have a new tear on the frame around that bracket - though that is a common weak point, I am convinced the stress of constant rubbing/touching made a notoriously weak area worse since putting these springs on) . I cannot slide a piece of paper between any of the wraps and bracket/frame nor get a constant bead of light to shine though when held on opposite side.

I'm now in the midst of what to do for frame repair.

I will post more details etc on my thread vs not bother the group except the bottom line of my experience with the Dobinsons springs I got. As Ian said, maybe we got a bad batch. Bad experience with their springs.

@MatthewMcD - what about a 4plus flip kit? Since you are there with the springs etc. I was chatting with Dave yesterday over email, he is around.

Has to be a bad batch. I’ve done at least 15 kits without that issue.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

@cruiseroutfit I followed up with another email, in case it makes a difference. My front end has a mini truck conversion to disk brakes. I believe it's from a '82 60 series. I'll send photos if you need more info.

One email is plenty, a second only delays your reply as it puts you at the bottom of the email queue. If you email after we've closed for the day (like you did last night) and again this morning before we've even opened... there simply isn't someone to read your inquires

 

[OlYellr]

I did some measuring when I first got them. See how far from the eye the wrap is.... vs look a the new TT springs and just visually can see the wrap much closer.

This is of the rear Dobinsons I got before install. Hard to tell but there is a fair amount of space between eye and wrap

vs TT springs - see how much closer the wrap is to the eye

 

[cims1970fj40]

@cruiseroutfit I’m running OME springs with an 1 1/2 extended shackles. What degree shims will I need? Also do I only need them for the front and does the center pins come with the shims?

 

[RevISK]

@cruiseroutfit I’m running OME springs with an 1 1/2 extended shackles. What degree shims will I need? Also do I only need them for the front and does the center pins come with the shims?

Best to do a proper measurement.
There are threads on how to measure caster and pinion angles but they were confusing for me until I had the AHA moment.

Dm me if you want me to walk you through it.
Sounds like you may need more than 4 and possibly some pinion correction in the rear.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

@cruiseroutfit I’m running OME springs with an 1 1/2 extended shackles. What degree shims will I need? Also do I only need them for the front and does the center pins come with the shims?

Which springs? How much load on the vehicle? Had caster measured during an alignment? What reading do you get? You'll likely need a 2-4* with the extended shackles. Shoot our parts team a contact with answers to the above and they'll get you taken care of: Contact Us - https://cruiserteq.com/contact-us/

 

[charliemeyer007]

I think its was Conifer? that had shoes for the bottom of the spring u-bolts. They had recesses for the nuts and a little bolt stick out - so there wasn't anything to hang up on rocks. They look like something I could weld up.

 

[MatthewMcD]

One email is plenty, a second only delays your reply as it puts you at the bottom of the email queue. If you email after we've closed for the day (like you did last night) and again this morning before we've even opened... there simply isn't someone to read your inquires

No worries Kurt, I woke up with more knowledge to share. I don't expect responses outside of business hours.

M

 

[wngrog]

You can’t have too much caster in this range. Stock is 1 degree which is meager.

A Chevy Blazer with leaf springs had 5* for reference.

I always run 4* shims. 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. All came with 1* caster. All drive better with more.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

You can’t have too much caster in this range. Stock is 1 degree which is meager.

A Chevy Blazer with leaf springs had 5* for reference.

I always run 4* shims. 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. All came with 1* caster. All drive better with more.

The exception being that increased caster turns into a negative pinion angle. Without a cut/turn or caster bearings, you're moving the problem to the pinion. That said, in a part-time 4WD and low suspension height/low suspension travel setup (i.e. FJ40/FJ60 on 2.5"), it's not likely not going to be an issue. We've done quite a few cut/turn axles for SUA Cruisers over the year, generally those running 4" springs and higher flex setups where a binding pinion is going to be far more catastrophic than low caster.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I did some measuring when I first got them. See how far from the eye the wrap is.... vs look a the new TT springs and just visually can see the wrap much closer.

This is of the rear Dobinsons I got before install. Hard to tell but there is a fair amount of space between eye and wrap
View attachment 3718379

vs TT springs - see how much closer the wrap is to the eye
View attachment 3718381

I'll have to measure some different Dobinsons 4x springs at the shop. That almost looks like the #2 (military wrap) spring from a late model 35mm spring (HJ47-7L-F for example) used with the #1 leaf of a 25mm spring (HJ40-7L-F for example). That said, full disclosure we've run into interference with their military wraps on 25mm 4x applications so it's not an unknown issue around these parts. Because OME uses the 35mm spring for both the 25mm and 35mm applications by using a conversion spring bushing, they don't use a military wrap on their 1F/1R/2F/2R springs. 30+ years and thousands of springs later, lack of military wrap hasn't proven to be an issue in that application for any of our customers. On principle I prefer a military wrap like the OE setup but again, it's not been an issue and I have customers with OME springs older than many forum members

 

[RevISK]

it's not an unknown issue

So very interesting.

D'son's essentially admitted to this, told me to "Heat the wrap up, beat the wrap closed with a sledgehammer and spray paint it" but in further emails walked back that it was an issue. To make my rig drivable and since neither the company or vendor were willing to do anything, I scored the wraps with a cutoff wheel until I could bend them over for some clearance then welded a bead into the scored area. They are still not totally clear of rubbing the frame so I may just lop off the wrap like you alluded to above.

All of this is a totally reasonable thing to have to do on a brand new set of leaf springs from such a great company... Right?

I will be following @OlYellr in making a warranty claim. Fortunately I still have all those emails.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

So very interesting.

D'son's essentially admitted to this, told me to "Heat the wrap up, beat the wrap closed with a sledgehammer and spray paint it" but in further emails walked back that it was an issue. To make my rig drivable and since neither the company or vendor were willing to do anything, I scored the wraps with a cutoff wheel until I could bend them over for some clearance then welded a bead into the scored area. They are still not totally clear of rubbing the frame so I may just lop off the wrap like you alluded to above.

All of this is a totally reasonable thing to have to do on a brand new set of leaf springs from such a great company... Right?

I will be following @OlYellr in making a warranty claim. Fortunately I still have all those emails.

Treadling lightly as I'm obviously not the dealer that sold you the parts so I don't have any real intel or say on the matter. However I would be faaaaaarrr more inclined to simply lob off the military wrap versus try and cut/weld. Heating/bending is workable with proper methods and post-heat treatment but welding spring material isn't preferred. However, the military wrap is really just a back-up in the event of a main leaf failure which isn't common with a Dobinsons spring.

Dobinsons in my experience is a great company and is willing to solve issues but I come from a dealer angle where we have perhaps some skin in the game to get them to solve those rare issues on behalf of our customers, no different than the same oddities we can experience with Old Man Emu, OEM Toyota parts, etc... nobodies parts are trouble free. I was able to spend time at the Dobinsons (and Terrain Tamer, ARB, TJM, etc) facilities in Australia, fantastic folks that all love Land Cruisers and feel they offer the best damn suspension

 

[volklflip88]

Will also be doing the OME springs soon to get rid of my rigid 4" BDS springs.. I have a 6 degree shim ready since that was the last thing I was going to try (I think there are 4* in there now). But I've seen the light.

Sounds like 4 degree shims should work with the OME lift as a general solution to get a couple degrees of positive caster. Obviously some actual measuring of angles needed but that should be a good starting point with the OME springs and OME shackles?

Any reason to go with something other than the OME shackles for their springs? Seems like they would have been designed to work together and as it was pointed out, 30+ years of use seems pretty good.

 

[RevISK]

Treadling lightly as I'm obviously not the dealer that sold you the parts so I don't have any real intel or say on the matter. However I would be faaaaaarrr more inclined to simply lob off the military wrap versus try and cut/weld. Heating/bending is workable with proper methods and post-heat treatment but welding spring material isn't preferred. However, the military wrap is really just a back-up in the event of a main leaf failure which isn't common with a Dobinsons spring.

Dobinsons in my experience is a great company and is willing to solve issues but I come from a dealer angle where we have perhaps some skin in the game to get them to solve those rare issues on behalf of our customers, no different than the same oddities we can experience with Old Man Emu, OEM Toyota parts, etc... nobodies parts are trouble free. I was able to spend time at the Dobinsons (and Terrain Tamer, ARB, TJM, etc) facilities in Australia, fantastic folks that all love Land Cruisers and feel they offer the best damn suspension

I certainly understand and really wish my (and Bryan's experience) echoed "the best damn suspension" statement.

an excerpt from my exchange with them: "So I was speaking to Australia about the matter and they said to heat it up with an oxy and close up the military wrap and then repaint (spray paint). We are planning to do that here to our stock..."

Aside from the wrap issue, I was told in another email regarding the insane lean (that quite literally developed overnight due to my spare) that Their springs weren't side specific but to swap the springs from side to side to see what happens... On the Way to SAS my springs were bottomed out with a very minimal load (no hard top etc...).

But you know what, I need to walk away from bashing them on this thread. I gave my advice and shared my experience (to a degree, as there is more to the story and much of that is on the vendor I feel).

It just seems fairly suspect and/or inconvenient the @OlYellr and I had strikingly similar experiences with springs purchased at very similar times...

 

[OlYellr]

I'll have to measure some different Dobinsons 4x springs at the shop. That almost looks like the #2 (military wrap) spring from a late model 35mm spring (HJ47-7L-F for example) used with the #1 leaf of a 25mm spring (HJ40-7L-F for example). That said, full disclosure we've run into interference with their military wraps on 25mm 4x applications so it's not an unknown issue around these parts. Because OME uses the 35mm spring for both the 25mm and 35mm applications by using a conversion spring bushing, they don't use a military wrap on their 1F/1R/2F/2R springs. 30+ years and thousands of springs later, lack of military wrap hasn't proven to be an issue in that application for any of our customers. On principle I prefer a military wrap like the OE setup but again, it's not been an issue and I have customers with OME springs older than many forum members

Kurt,

Thanks for confirming we are not crazy - it's been a lot of gas lighting with these spring from others.

No issues that parts are not always perfect - just when you drop 2500+ that the manufactures stand up vs tell us to "sell your new Dobinsons, and buy new ones." Can escalate fast vs coming to a workable solution.

I'd be curious on what you measure out whenever you do - and may tag you on my thread after I formally file a claim later today.

Thanks!

Edit : I digress too (on this thread)

 

[OlYellr]

gave my advice and shared my experience (to a degree, as there is more to the story and much of that is on the vendor I feel).

We are not criticizing Dobinsons, we are just describing.

 

[cims1970fj40]

Which springs? How much load on the vehicle? Had caster measured during an alignment? What reading do you get? You'll likely need a 2-4* with the extended shackles. Shoot our parts team a contact with answers to the above and they'll get you taken care of: Contact Us - https://cruiserteq.com/contact-us/

Running the OME medium and have a hell of stout bumper with an 8274 and 4plus tire and cooler carrier. I was planning on running a soft top but possibly will go with a hardtop.


I haven’t had an alignment down because I’m still working on the cruiser to get it on the road. Do you recommend getting the alignment done before hand? Thanks

 

[1MOA]

Really glad Dobinsons never returned my emails or phone calls when I wanted to redo my suspension 4 years ago. I will say I am nothing but happy with the OME 2.5 with Bilstein shocks under it now. After the first wheeling trip and everything got flexed it smoothed itself out and gives a nice ride on and off road.