Builds Over the Hills, and Far Away (3 Viewers)

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So, question: what are the rear rack supports shown here actually bolted to, aside from sheetmetal?

The origin point above the tail light is both novel and convenient, but even if there's s large backer plate installed inside the tub corner, it looks like the corner itself is what's holding everything up. I'm not exactly liking that idea, despite the location being near-perfect. Likewise, the front supports at the B-pillar seem to be entirely fastened to the FRP top. Am I seeing both areas correctly? Opinions?
 
What is the intended use for a roof rack? Are you planning on mounting much cargo up there or a rooftop tent? Or is it mainly a mount for an awning and other light items?
 
What is the intended use for a roof rack? Are you planning on mounting much cargo up there or a rooftop tent? Or is it mainly a mount for an awning and other light items?

It's mostly for an awning on the rear...which doesn't actually require a full rack, in point of fact. I may want to carry a second spare because tires and Very Sincerely Yours don't always get along, and maybe a small box of recovery gear and/or other stuff that I don't usually need. Possibly a spot for a solar panel? I'll have to think about that one. I've also throw a water bag up there to heat in the sun for a shower, occasionally.

I will not - repeat: not - be using a rooftop tent. They're fine for those that like them, but they don't work well for me. They also weigh about as much as depleted uranium and have the aerodynamic qualities of a tornado-flung outhouse. And I don't like having heavy stuff on the roof, anyway, if I can avoid it; too much added instability and extremely poor access.
 
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They're bolted to sheet metal with backing plates I'm sure. You could also take the bars down to side wings on the rear bumper and to side steps or rock sliders. If I had stayed with my FRP top BJ73 I was going to have a full external rail system just like that fabbed up. Done this way, with the top being used mainly for lateral stability, I think it would work just fine. But as you said it's unnecessary for an awning although it would give you a great support for a proper roof rack to put light bulky stuff like clothing and tentage. Ditto a couple of Jerry cans that could be emptied ASAP and not only increase your range but then basically weigh nothing. There's almost no room inside these small trucks and putting all that stuff up on a stable roof rack would be a game changer. And good call on the roof top tent.
 
Speaking of rain: I need to source a tiny leak. In heavy downpours or day-long soaking rains, I'm getting a small amount of water in the front footwell

I had windshield zone corrosion which I dealt with, but for me the ultimate source of that exact same leak was the firewall grommet.
I had run a new wire through the grommet and I guess disturbing the old rubber caused a gap.
I poured flowable silicone on the wires and grommet. That stopped the water.
 
What is the intended use for a roof rack? Are you planning on mounting much cargo up there or a rooftop tent? Or is it mainly a mount for an awning and other light items?
I'm sensing Sundowner really doesn't care for roof top tents. I just ordered one of those slim pack aluminum ones for my 78. I'm hoping the low profile, 7.5", will negate some of the wind drag and top heaviness. how does your RTT carry.
 
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It's mostly for an awning on the rear...which doesn't actually require a full rack, in point of fact. I may want to carry a second spare because tires and Very Sincerely Yours don't always get along, and maybe a small box of recovery gear and/or other stuff that I don't usually need. Possibly a spot for a solar panel? I'll have to think about that one. I've also throw a water bag up there to heat in the sun for a shower, occasionally.

I will not - repeat: not - be using a rooftop tent. They're fine for those that like them, but they don't work well for me. They also weigh about as much as depleted uranium and have the aerodynamic qualities of a tornado-flung outhouse. And I don't like having heavy stuff on the roof, anyway, if I can avoid it; too much added instability and extremely poor access.
For most of those uses I would say bolting through the sheet metal with appropriate backing plates will be perfectly adequate. Carrying a spare tire on the rack might require more than that though, as a tire/rim combo can get pretty heavy.

I'm sensing Sundowner really doesn't care for roof top tents. I just ordered one of those slim pack aluminum ones for my 78. I'm hoping the low profile, 7.5", will negater some of the wind drag and top heaviness. how does your RTT carry.
To each their own, RTT's aren't for everyone. I really like camping in mine, but wish I had a good way to remove it when not in use. Overall the Prado does just fine with the tent on top, though I definitely notice a difference in any kind of a headwind or crosswind. Under normal conditions I probably see 50-100ºF higher EGT's, and my ability to carry speed in windy conditions is significantly decreased. I probably lose 1-3mpg on average.

If you've retained your sway bars handling is still pretty good with the extra weight, Prados are pretty stiff in stock form. My front sway bar has been out since it came loose and destroyed one of the brackets this summer; at first I really noticed the extra sway from the higher COG but have gotten used to it now. Definitely increases the pucker factor on steep, off-camber trails though.
 
For most of those uses I would say bolting through the sheet metal with appropriate backing plates will be perfectly adequate. Carrying a spare tire on the rack might require more than that though, as a tire/rim combo can get pretty heavy.


To each their own, RTT's aren't for everyone. I really like camping in mine, but wish I had a good way to remove it when not in use. Overall the Prado does just fine with the tent on top, though I definitely notice a difference in any kind of a headwind or crosswind. Under normal conditions I probably see 50-100ºF higher EGT's, and my ability to carry speed in windy conditions is significantly decreased. I probably lose 1-3mpg on average.

If you've retained your sway bars handling is still pretty good with the extra weight, Prados are pretty stiff in stock form. My front sway bar has been out since it came loose and destroyed one of the brackets this summer; at first I really noticed the extra sway from the higher COG but have gotten used to it now. Definitely increases the pucker factor on steep, off-camber trails though.
Mine also does not have a front sway bar but still has the stock ride height. Ill give a ride report After Elk season.
 
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They're bolted to sheet metal with backing plates I'm sure. You could also take the bars down to side wings on the rear bumper and to side steps or rock sliders. If I had stayed with my FRP top BJ73 I was going to have a full external rail system just like that fabbed up. Done this way, with the top being used mainly for lateral stability, I think it would work just fine. But as you said it's unnecessary for an awning although it would give you a great support for a proper roof rack to put light bulky stuff like clothing and tentage. Ditto a couple of Jerry cans that could be emptied ASAP and not only increase your range but then basically weigh nothing.

I've been stopping and staring at the rear corners every time I walk past...and there's a solution present, albeit not an easy one. Simply put: changing up the rear quarter trim panels at the bumper - à la Coastal Offroad - to a structural assembly that is tied into the rear crossmember and the rear frame rails behind the tires makes everything else possible, because it gives us the basis of a mounting surface for the "everything else" in question. Therein, however, lies the difficulty; the groundwork itself is laborious, and once it's done we still have everything else to fabricate.

This being said, there's another possible solution; if all we're really trying to do is make a structural assembly that replaces the rear trim panels...why not just make a structural rear trim piece and eliminate the rest of the bumper-building that we are only undertaking as a means to an end? I kind of want to tack some foam-core together and create a proof of concept, and then see about the possibility of modifying or creating a new trim piece that will replace the stock ones, while still providing the same aesthetic function. Of course, once we take things to that level, we may have been better-served by starting with the Coastal bumper kit.

There's almost no room inside these small trucks and putting all that stuff up on a stable roof rack would be a game changer. And good call on the roof top tent.

I agree; the small, light, incidental-use stuff that doesn't need to be left at home but which also takes up room could definitely go up top...and for times when extra supplies or equipment must be carried, having an overflow space on the roof would be ideal. It's a time-honored solution that's been proven by a lot of rigs in a lot of places, and there's really only one environment in which it offers a significant drawback: the interstate highway system. Wind noise and drag go up, fuel efficiency and stability go down, and having the lowest-profile rack is the only way to mitigate those effects. Been there and done that.

I had windshield zone corrosion which I dealt with, but for me the ultimate source of that exact same leak was the firewall grommet.
I had run a new wire through the grommet and I guess disturbing the old rubber caused a gap.
I poured flowable silicone on the wires and grommet. That stopped the water.

It's been off-and-on raining here for over a week, and she hasn't leaked a drop. We've had some pretty significant amounts, as well...so I don't know what's going on. I guess I need to get in there with a hose and start soaking things and seeing if I can find a penetration point. Good time to adjust my clutch as well; I don't think it's always engaging as fully as it needs to. Every once in awhile I'll get a momentary gear-grind when I put her into reverse, or a hang-up/hard shift from neutral to first.

I'm sensing Sundowner really doesn't care for roof top tents. I just ordered one of those slim pack aluminum ones for my 78. I'm hoping the low profile, 7.5", will negate some of the wind drag and top heaviness. how does your RTT carry.

You, Sir, are a man of uncommon perception and sense correctly: the last thing I want to deal in the middle of the night on the way to the WC is a ladder, because those are not a welcome contrivance when one is halfway between a well-deserved nightcap and a much-needed morning brew.

For most of those uses I would say bolting through the sheet metal with appropriate backing plates will be perfectly adequate. Carrying a spare tire on the rack might require more than that though, as a tire/rim combo can get pretty heavy.

I agree. A spare tire for my rig weighs exactly 51 pounds, plus whatever the stock wheel weight happens to be. Call that 25 lbs. and we're looking at somewhere in the mid-70's...and that's almost exactly the weight of 40 liters of diesel, not counting two Wavian cans and their necessary accoutrements. Attempt to carry both and I'm at 150 pounds; adding the aforementioned awning will throw another 25 pounds into the mix, give or take, and I've never met a recovery box worth being called such that didn't weigh over 25 pounds when fully dressed. That's an even 200 pounds - or 91 metric pounds, for those of us in countries with sensible metrology - and we haven't even worked very hard to get there...or accounted for the weight of the rack itself.

To each their own, RTT's aren't for everyone. I really like camping in mine, but wish I had a good way to remove it when not in use. Overall the Prado does just fine with the tent on top, though I definitely notice a difference in any kind of a headwind or crosswind. Under normal conditions I probably see 50-100ºF higher EGT's, and my ability to carry speed in windy conditions is significantly decreased. I probably lose 1-3mpg on average.

For reference, I lost 0.8MPG on my LJ when I added the roof rack.

If you've retained your sway bars handling is still pretty good with the extra weight, Prados are pretty stiff in stock form. My front sway bar has been out since it came loose and destroyed one of the brackets this summer; at first I really noticed the extra sway from the higher COG but have gotten used to it now. Definitely increases the pucker factor on steep, off-camber trails though.

I do have the antisway bars in place; I am not a fan of disconnecting them. In the coil-sprung and sadly-misinformed Jeep world, they're usually disconnected in a misguided attempt to gain traction via increased axle/wheel travel; such attempts usually have little to no impact at articulation ranges unaffected by the disconnection, and are actively counterproductive at ranges formerly limited by the bar.

All that being said: I've been into other stuff today...and that is simply a nebulous way of saying "I finally got around to replacing my door scuffs."

Pictured: Ew.

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I tried cleaning them in so many different ways, all of which failed; I scrubbed, I magic-erased, I polished, I gently-abraded, I sacrificed my last remaining virginal unicorn on a a high holy day...you name it, and I tried it. Result: nothing. No improvement. I think I actually made it worse with all of my efforts, because when I took them out to gently abrade and/or be placed upon the sacred altar, I managed to completely sever a previously-compromised mounting tab on the driver's side scuff and prevent it from ever again fitting properly. So, at length, I bought new ones...and then promptly misplaced them for the better part of a year due to the aforementioned cross-country move; they finally resurfaced, so I figured that this was as good a time as any to get them installed.

Pictured: Also: never photograph your carpet up-close. Ick.

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Thirty minutes of vacuuming later and the carpet still wasn't clean - and I'm going to have to work on that because tiny bits of redwood-needle shrapnel do not need to find their forever-home in my vehicle - but the new hotness was installed and it looks immeasurably better.

Pictured: It's also not broken, so...win-win.

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That's one strange and intermittent trim noise solved; now there are only 7,402 left to go...all of which will be filed away until I get the diverter panel in the blower assembly repaired; it's somewhat corroded from something or other, and it likes to clatter when the doors open or shut. I'm pretty sure I'll have to replace the entire blower assembly in order to do that, but oh well; that'll give me a bunch of spare parts for when something else in the new one eventually gives out. I may need a cable as well, but I'm going to have to get my head under there and figure out what's letting the door move around so much before I order any additional parts...and I haven't yet ordered the blower assembly, in point of fact, so I guess I need to do that as well.

Also, in unrelated news: some goodies from the land of Oz showed up.

Pictured: Pay no attention to the rear windows behind the curtain.

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I got these from Solarscreen awhile back, but I hadn't really played around with them until today; Solarscreen actually shipped me the wrong set for my rear quarter windows, so once they got the replacements to me - free of charge at their insistence, with a five-day arrival time from Australia, to boot - I basically checked for fit and then put them aside until I had time and brainpower to play with them. I'm pretty impressed: when the entire set is installed it's dark inside the rig...so that's Step One towards making this thing a self-contained camping pod.

Now I can start thinking about the hard part: figuring out how to stretch out in an area that's not big enough to stretch out in.
 
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On an unrelated note: two days ago, when looking over a fully-functional Land Rover to see if it contained anything salvageable or usable - spoiler: it didn't - I happened to espy a vaguely-yellow and otherwise-unknown cubic object lying underneath an adjacent pile of also-useless spare parts. Upon closer inspection, I discovered the cubic object to be a completely-intact surplus US Navy battle lantern...and by "completely intact" I actually mean "covered in dust, filth and corrosion, with no batteries, a probably-broken bulb, a cracked case and a switch that doesn't want to move."

Pictured: And yet, still in better condition than anything ever built by British Leyland.

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Naturally, I did the only permissible thing: I bought it from the owner - whom, having been made aware that the object existed, was immediately recalled of its immense historical and personal value - for more than it was worth, with the intention of doing something vaguely-important and overland-flavored with it. I then picked up two batteries and tore into it to see how bad the interior condition was. Spoiler: it wasn't as bad as the outside.

Pictured: In fact, it was worse.

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It may look cleaner in there, but it wasn't; there was a fine film of corrosion on everything. I had to pry the case apart; the rubber seals had been so long unmoved that they resembled hard-set adhesive more than any kind of flexible substance, and what portions did want to give way only did so due to the presence of acid corrosion. The brass case screws were more green than any other color, and the rubber gaskets underneath them had done a wonderful job of adhesing them into their recesses. The interior connections were also in bad shape, and the switch was basically frozen from lack of use; I've since gotten it free and functional, though it may still need work. It certainly needs a solid cleaning, like almost everything else in the assembly; strangely enough, the paper wiring diagram that was glued on the inside wall of the case wasn't in terrible condition...so I may try to get it loose and salvage it. I've no idea how that survived when the balance is so deteriorated and/or neglected.

I grabbed a pair of batteries - one of which is pictured above - and I have a replacement Westinghouse 4546 bulb showing up tomorrow; I'd like to see what kind of light this thing produces in factory condition. I'm also soaking and cleaning the case parts in a mixture of literally every chemical cleaner and/or soap in my kitchen, because evidently I didn't listen to what my second-grade teacher taught me about mixing things that I find under the sink. Amazingly, the best results have come from a bit of dish soap and a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser; I'll never get it totally clean, but I can at least decontaminate it.

Way back in Paragraph 2 I mentioned doing something vaguely-important and overland-flavored with this thing...and I meant that: I need a decent camp/vehicle light, and for some stupid reason I kind of like this otherwise-obtuse yellow brick. The sensible solution would be to use one of my rechargeable LED lantern units and be done, but I just don't ever seem to like the light that comes from them; I have many of them and they all feel harsh. I keep thinking about what kind of light I want to surround myself with when I'm snuggled up in the back of the rig in the middle of nowhere with nothing but the land around me - and I surely hope that's where I'll end up - and in my mind that light is always a warm glow; it's never a cold, white LED. Tungsten FTW, I suppose.

So, maybe this will be a workable project for when I need a break from other things on the rig - like how to fit a bed in there - but I'm going to have to figure out a way to make the light last a bit longer than is usually the case with 6-volt batteries of questionable capacity that are paired with a 4.7-watt bulb that should utterly exhaust said batteries within 20 hours or so, at best. Right now, I'm not sure how to solve that conundrum; I could do an LED conversion and try for something of a warmer, friendlier spectrum than is the norm with that light source, but I'm not sure that I want to go that route. Or, I could look for a rechargeable 12- or 24-volt PAR36 bulb and try to rework the battery situation entirely...or I could even bypass any sort of internal battery and basically make this a plug-in-only unit via a power cable, and just connect it to either the 12- or 24-volt systems in the Toyota. There are lots of options, and all of them are opportunities to learn; thankfully I have lots of cleaning to do before I fully attack those issue, so I'm not under any kind of pressure to figure out what will be best. As always, suggestions are welcome.

Stay tuned.
 
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I do have the antisway bars in place; I am not a fan of disconnecting them. In the coil-sprung and sadly-misinformed Jeep world, they're usually disconnected in a misguided attempt to gain traction via increased axle/wheel travel; such attempts usually have little to no impact at articulation ranges unaffected by the disconnection, and are actively counterproductive at ranges formerly limited by the bar.
I would also prefer to keep the sway bars connected, I still have the rear in and would have the front if it hadn't destroyed itself. I was actually working on a design for a front sway bar disconnect to use when out on the trails. There is a noticeable increase in front axle articulation with it out, I don't lift wheels nearly as often as I used to.
 
I have the 80 series Front Runner rack on my 73. It’s fine for light items, but I also want to eventually tie it into the chassis via rock sliders and the rear bumper some day.

Nice; that's as solid as the rain gutter mounts can get, methinks. I would have no problem using that method for the awning...but yeah, once it starts getting heavy up there, another solution would be preferred.

That being said...

I've wondered if there might be a semi-backwards hybrid solution, so to speak: using a rain gutter mount to hold the rack down, but using a stand-off pad and mount to help hold it up. The latter would be mounted near the perimeter of the roof in order to use the corner strength of the moulded FRP and/or underlying metal to best advantage, and if they were affixed with something like 3M 4200, they would add a slight amount of lateral stability as well...and would still be vaguely removable. Just an infant thought, that...but possibly worth pursuing.

I would also prefer to keep the sway bars connected, I still have the rear in and would have the front if it hadn't destroyed itself. I was actually working on a design for a front sway bar disconnect to use when out on the trails.

Are there no disconnects available, already?

There is a noticeable increase in front axle articulation with it out, I don't lift wheels nearly as often as I used to.

I would imagine that to be the case, yes. I assume this means that there are no aftermarket or variable-rate bars available, either.
 
Nice; that's as solid as the rain gutter mounts can get, methinks. I would have no problem using that method for the awning...but yeah, once it starts getting heavy up there, another solution would be preferred.

That being said...

I've wondered if there might be a semi-backwards hybrid solution, so to speak: using a rain gutter mount to hold the rack down, but using a stand-off pad and mount to help hold it up. The latter would be mounted near the perimeter of the roof in order to use the corner strength of the moulded FRP and/or underlying metal to best advantage, and if they were affixed with something like 3M 4200, they would add a slight amount of lateral stability as well...and would still be vaguely removable. Just an infant thought, that...but possibly worth pursuing.

I’ve actually been looking for some sort of rubber feet/wedges to do exactly that!!
 
Are there no disconnects available, already?
Not that I have found or heard of. Perhaps there were in Japan, but the Prado is uncommon enough in this part of the world that no one has bothered to make something yet. I would guess that not many people wheel them enough to really need a disconnect either, and if they do they just remove the sway bar. I think I have a solution but need to find a bracket to replace my mangled one before I can look into fabricating a disconnect.
 
Not that I have found or heard of. Perhaps there were in Japan, but the Prado is uncommon enough in this part of the world that no one has bothered to make something yet. I would guess that not many people wheel them enough to really need a disconnect either, and if they do they just remove the sway bar.

That doesn't surprise me: there's a lot of bad info and anecdotal "works for me!" explanations floating around, regarding disconnects. People often mistakenly equate wheel travel with traction, or attempt to index and quantify various aspects of their suspension modifications without first understanding what the system was doing in stock trim.

I think I have a solution but need to find a bracket to replace my mangled one before I can look into fabricating a disconnect.

I'll be interested to see that.

I found this picture on the interwebs on computers. Looks like a cpl nice supports just to help out those rain gutters a bit.

Yep, that is the general idea; get a big, wide, comfy mount on the top of those corners, where the curve strengthens the FRP, and then do that as many times as is necessary to alleviate point-loading the material. Or, said more simply: plenty of it; flood the cowling.

I think it's not a hard solution to effect; just time-consuming. Start with a template, correct it as needed, and then make a wider prototype; check for fit, correct, solve the upper attachment issues, and then produce a set. Check again, make adjustments, and then try to talk your 70-series friends into helping you test them out...and that is the time-consuming part.
 
I found this picture on the interwebs on computers. Looks like a cpl nice supports just to help out those rain gutters a bit.

View attachment 3462950
@TRAIL TAILOR has made a rack with roof support standoffs for a 73/74, he may still offer them. If not, seems like it would be easy to fabricate something to do the same with the front runner rack.

 
@TRAIL TAILOR[/USER] has made a rack with roof support standoffs for a 73/74, he may still offer them. If not, seems like it would be easy to fabricate something to do the same with the front runner rack.

I saw that thread last night as I was searching for existing solutions - I've had more success searching the inter-forums externally than internally, by the way - and that's very a similar solution to the one that I'm considering. That being said...I've been doing some thinking on the subject; bear with me while I write all of this down for the sake of posterity and my own clarity on the subject.

The issue at hand is basic load distribution; I could probably sit down and noodle out a lot of math on the tensile and compressive and flexural strengths of fiberglass and FRP and pretend that I actually have a grasp on what they mean, but in the end this approach is really just a method of spreading the load over a wider area and not overtaxing any given portion. If we assume the the rack is somewhere around 75 pounds in mounted trim and then add a 250-pound weight capacity, we're looking at just over 40 pounds being supported by each of eight standoff pads; if we make those pads somewhere around 4" square, we create 16 square inches of load-bearing surface - incidentally, that's 0.000645 square meters for those of us in countries with sensible metrology - on each pad. This means that approximately 2.53 pounds per square inch are being supported by the underlying FRP at any given point; that's not very much weight...and that's also not counting any support that the factory rain gutter mounts provide. Easy solution, right?

Not necessarily, methinks.

The main issue that I've found in the past is not the overall mass of objects on the rack; it's the force imparted to them and by them when moving. On my LJ - a similar chassis weight, size, and capability, albeit with a suspension from the second half of the last century - there was a serious difference in cornering, brake-dive and off-camber handling with the rack loaded...and I didn't carry much up there. Total load was under 300 pounds including the rack itself, which is analogous to the approximate rating that FrontRunner actively doesn't assign to their racks: for reference, they'll tell you that it's 660 lbs. static, and "well, it's kinda-sorta about a third of that, but don't quote us" dynamic. Call it 220 lbs. or 100 kilos (whichever is heavier in your country) and that's that; there's enough capacity for an awning, a second spare, 40 liters of fuel and maybe a box of recovery stuffs. 220 pounds doesn't seem like a lot, but from my experience and from what the smarter-than-me engineers at FrontRunner are indicating, that can be a hell of a lot of weight once some motion is imparted unto it.

More simply put: 2.53 pounds per square inch of static load is easy...but the load I'm concerned about isn't static. Hmmm.
 

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