O R I O N (2 Viewers)

[Crusha]

Sounds like a company that no longer gives a crap about customer service. Take the money and run. TWO cases in a row with cracks? What a joke, not to mention all the other "adjustments" that have to be done to cure various issues. If I dropped that kind of money on one, and had to pull it out even once, because they lazily overlooked something that could be seen with the naked eye, oofah, would I be pissed. Maybe they need to include some JB Weld, and a bungee cord with every order.

I was, previously, a potential customer. However, stories like these have eroded my confidence.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Sounds like a company that no longer gives a crap about customer service. Take the money and run. TWO cases in a row with cracks? What a joke, not to mention all the other "adjustments" that have to be done to cure various issues. If I dropped that kind of money on one, and had to pull it out even once, because they lazily overlooked something that could be seen with the naked eye, oofah, would I be pissed. Maybe they need to include some JB Weld, and a bungee cord with every order.

I was, previously, a potential customer. However, stories like these have eroded my confidence.

On one hand, I agree. On the other hand, beyond completely changing out the drivetrain, what’s the alternative? I also really wish AA could/would join the discussion - I know that isn’t going to happen but it would be good to get their take on the current situation, what has changed, and how best to mitigate.

 

[orangefj45]

@69 4 fun my apologies for dropping the ball. Just sent you a pm

 

[orangefj45]

I've replied to this thread multiple times and I'm happy to contribute any info/help I can offer. Need to keep it short, literally about to head out for the holiday weekend

The casting flaws experienced by the same person more than once are not something I've encountered or seen. I've built well over 200 Orion cases at this point; we have 4 at the shop right now, and this is a new "issue" to me. I inspected all 4 cases and none have this problem. I'm sure AA will look into it and address the posters concern as well as look into these QC issues.

 

[orangefj45]

Yes, some of the cases ( small percentage ) still pop out of gear, even after all the upgrades, changes and modifications to the design/kit.

I firmly believe it's an issue with the splines on the tcase output shaft, where the HNL collar resides and locks the gears in. The split cases utilize a similar shaft and collar ( almost identical other than physical dimensions ) with what I refer to as "pinched splines" and they NEVER pop out of fear, even with the stock detent setup & shift rail, even with the Sumo 4:1 gear set ( same manufacturer as the Orion gear set ). I have seen the split case pop out of gear when the output shaft from a vacuum shifted unit is used; they have straight splines.
I've discussed this with the proper Chanel's and I hope that one day we'll see a manufacturing change to the early ( and Orion ) case shafts. And if so, hopefully that'll cure the problem for good.

I'll try to post some pics next week when I'm back at the shop.

Georg @ Valley Hybrids & Cruiser Brothers

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Yes, some of the cases ( small percentage ) still pop out of gear, even after all the upgrades, changes and modifications to the design/kit.

I firmly believe it's an issue with the splines on the tcase output shaft, where the HNL collar resides and locks the gears in. The split cases utilize a similar shaft and collar ( almost identical other than physical dimensions ) with what I refer to as "pinched splines" and they NEVER pop out of fear, even with the stock detent setup & shift rail, even with the Sumo 4:1 gear set ( same manufacturer as the Orion gear set ). I have seen the split case pop out of gear when the output shaft from a vacuum shifted unit is used; they have straight splines.
I've discussed this with the proper Chanel's and I hope that one day we'll see a manufacturing change to the early ( and Orion ) case shafts. And if so, hopefully that'll cure the problem for good.

I'll try to post some pics next week when I'm back at the shop.

Georg @ Valley Hybrids & Cruiser Brothers

Georg, very much appreciate you taking the time to respond (again) and would definitely be interested I seeing some pictures to compare. I was mostly just curious if AA is aware of this or if they have any plans to address this any further.

As of right now is there any type of modification or remedy you can make to the output shaft that prevents the popping out of gear issue? Obviously the shift collar has to slide so I don’t suspect you could “pin” in in some way to remove the slop.

Any way to measure and determine “good” or “bad” spline clearance before installing the case and testing it or is it essentially just luck of the draw?

I’m not buying one of these tomorrow or anything so enjoy the holiday weekend in the meantime!

 

[orangefj45]

Ok here’s a pic of the 5 basic types of Tcase output shafts for early and split tcases.
There are 3 versions of the one-piece case shafts; I’ve got 2 in the pic. There’s an “intermediate” version that has coarse splines on both ends but utilizes a stake nut instead of a castle nut. Notice that the splines for the HNL slider are straight cut.
The three shafts on the right are for the split cases. The vacuum shifted shaft has straight splines at the HNL slider ( like the early shafts ) but both mechanically shifted split case shafts ( standard and long version; factory ebrake ) have what I refer to as “pinched” splines. These help lock the gears in place.
A few years ago we installed a 4:1 gear set ( very similar to the Orion gear sets and made by the same company ) into a vacuum shifted split case. In low range, the Tcase would pop into neutral under deceleration. You could literally watch the shifter slowly move towards neutral and then pop into neutral. Frustrating but we figured it out ...... we installed the shaft from mechanically shifter case and have never seen that issue again.
So I firmly believe that if the early shafts were manufactured the same way, with the pinched splines, that we would no longer see the Orion transfer case of pop out of gear and into neutral. Obviously, only a small percentage of the cases have this issue and AA along with the gear vendor have spent more than considerable effort trying to rectify this potential issue.
Hope that helps.
Georg @ Valley Hybrids, Cruiser Brothers & Long Range America
Shop 209-475-8808
Sales@valleyhybrids.com

 

[orangefj45]

Close up shot of the splines hub area.
Georg @ Valley Hybrids, Cruiser Brothers & Long Range America

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Very interesting. I’m still totally confused as to why this would be problematic in an Orion when there is no issue (at least not that I’ve encountered) with the same straight-cut splines on a stock 1-piece case, for the same reason it seems odd that this would happen in some (but not all) Orions. I suppose what someone else mentioned (the added torque in 4WD low vs at 4:1 vs 2:1) could work to force it out - but Physics has never been my strong suit! This also assumes the issue only occurs in low gear. (Not 100% sure of that).

 

[65swb45]

The stress handled by ANY gearbox is the function of two forces: the torque that is inputted, and the inertia beyond the output that must be overcome for the box to do its job. A number of variables will affect how these forces interact in a powertain , from the cubic inch displacement of the engine, to the resistance supplied by vehicle weight, gear ratio and tire.

For example, in my mind an engine would rather tear itself free of its mounts and flip over when it meets the dead weight of a 6000lb truck. It is only when it is unsuccessful at flipping itself over that it applies, as a secondary option, motive power. Likewise, a rear differential would rather turn itself 90 degrees from the driveline and break the driveshaft than move the weight of a vehicle. But because the axles are harnessed by leaf springs and/or link bars, the differential reluctantly turns the tires. Point: motive power is not the first option.

How efficiently a gearbox transfers power not only depends on how the gears interface, but how the gears are supported. Regarding the interface, a straight-cut gear will always transfer power directly, while a helical cut gear will ALWAYS have some tendency to want to push itself away laterally from what it is required to move.

Take for example a transmission like the Muncie SM420, designed specifically to handle a lot of torque and a MASSIVE amount of resistance (think dump trucks). It uses a straight-cut, non synchromesh 1st gear, thus removing the dynamic potential of the gear and its counterpart to move away from one another laterally. Even the lowly 1st/reverse gear of the LC 3speed transmission was designed with the same thought, with the additional advantage of having massive, direct spline contact with the output shaft.

The transfer case is a whole different ballgame. Originally designed for a 4200lb vehicle inputting 100 ft/lbs of torque on the one side, and turning a 4:11 gear set and 28” tall tires on the other end. Toyota’s engineers deemed helical cut gears AND bronze bushings a satisfactory combination. The sheer volume of wiped out bushings and output shafts that I have seen on even bone stock rigs over the last 34 years is testament that this wasn’t an optimal decision. The helical cut gears of an H41 or H42 (or even the H55 for that matter) rest on either a precisely matched gear/shaft interface, or better yet, a set of caged roller bearings.

Those gears and shafts rarely suffer any damage. Coincidence?

So here comes AA, trying to fill a much-needed void in the Landcruiser off road world for a ‘bolt-in’ transfer case option. My hat is off to them. They accomplished something that has made a lot of people happy rock crawlers. The problem is that they inherited all the inherent weaknesses of the original design, along with the force multipliers of end users whose rigs have A. much more torque than what Toyota designed the gearbox to handle, B. much more weight than it left the factory with,( and more likely more than the GVWR) C. much larger tires. Or a combination of those things.

And since the Orion mimics the factory design well enough to reuse the factory output shaft and hi-lo shift collar, they inherit the limitations of those components as well.

Reconfiguring the splines on the output shaft is not the answer. The force that drives the collar off the gear needs to minimized at the source, not ‘contained’ by all the stop-gap measures that have been dreamed up over the last 13 years.

The I.D. of the output gears (and possibly the O.D. of the output shaft) need to be revisited by engineers with the mindset of replacing the bronze bushings with caged roller bearings of tighter tolerances. That, along with the stepped thrust washers Poser first envisioned, will minimize the pressure at its source, the gear itself.

The smooth sides of the splined center section of the output shaft will still be galled over time even with this improvement. But it will be at a much lower rate once the gear is both adequately supported by roller bearings and caged by the stepped thrust washers.

 

[orangefj45]

The stress handled by ANY gearbox is the function of two forces: the torque that is inputted, and the inertia beyond the output that must be overcome for the box to do its job. A number of variables will affect how these forces interact in a powertain , from the cubic inch displacement of the engine, to the resistance supplied by vehicle weight, gear ratio and tire.

For example, in my mind an engine would rather tear itself free of its mounts and flip over when it meets the dead weight of a 6000lb truck. It is only when it is unsuccessful at flipping itself over that it applies, as a secondary option, motive power. Likewise, a rear differential would rather turn itself 90 degrees from the driveline and break the driveshaft than move the weight of a vehicle. But because the axles are harnessed by leaf springs and/or link bars, the differential reluctantly turns the tires. Point: motive power is not the first option.

How efficiently a gearbox transfers power not only depends on how the gears interface, but how the gears are supported. Regarding the interface, a straight-cut gear will always transfer power directly, while a helical cut gear will ALWAYS have some tendency to want to push itself away laterally from what it is required to move.

Take for example a transmission like the Muncie SM420, designed specifically to handle a lot of torque and a MASSIVE amount of resistance (think dump trucks). It uses a straight-cut, non synchromesh 1st gear, thus removing the dynamic potential of the gear and its counterpart to move away from one another laterally. Even the lowly 1st/reverse gear of the LC 3speed transmission was designed with the same thought, with the additional advantage of having massive, direct spline contact with the output shaft.

The transfer case is a whole different ballgame. Originally designed for a 4200lb vehicle inputting 100 ft/lbs of torque on the one side, and turning a 4:11 gear set and 28” tall tires on the other end. Toyota’s engineers deemed helical cut gears AND bronze bushings a satisfactory combination. The sheer volume of wiped out bushings and output shafts that I have seen on even bone stock rigs over the last 34 years is testament that this wasn’t an optimal decision. The helical cut gears of an H41 or H42 (or even the H55 for that matter) rest on either a precisely matched gear/shaft interface, or better yet, a set of caged roller bearings.

Those gears and shafts rarely suffer any damage. Coincidence?

So here comes AA, trying to fill a much-needed void in the Landcruiser off road world for a ‘bolt-in’ transfer case option. My hat is off to them. They accomplished something that has made a lot of people happy rock crawlers. The problem is that they inherited all the inherent weaknesses of the original design, along with the force multipliers of end users whose rigs have A. much more torque than what Toyota designed the gearbox to handle, B. much more weight than it left the factory with,( and more likely more than the GVWR) C. much larger tires. Or a combination of those things.

And since the Orion mimics the factory design well enough to reuse the factory output shaft and hi-lo shift collar, they inherit the limitations of those components as well.

Reconfiguring the splines on the output shaft is not the answer. The force that drives the collar off the gear needs to minimized at the source, not ‘contained’ by all the stop-gap measures that have been dreamed up over the last 13 years.

The I.D. of the output gears (and possibly the O.D. of the output shaft) need to be revisited by engineers with the mindset of replacing the bronze bushings with caged roller bearings of tighter tolerances. That, along with the stepped thrust washers Poser first envisioned, will minimize the pressure at its source, the gear itself.

The smooth sides of the splined center section of the output shaft will still be galled over time even with this improvement. But it will be at a much lower rate once the gear is both adequately supported by roller bearings and caged by the stepped thrust washers.

I agree with some of that, however, how does any of this relate to some of the Orion’s popping out of gear? If you’re using a new shaft, new gears & bushings and the proper thrust washers ...... and they still pop out?!
Doesn’t matter if the gears are bushing or bearing supported. That makes zero difference when it comes to the issue at hand.

 

[middlecalf]

So I’ll clutter this up - Are the Orion setups under question all with short stick (trans tunnel) engagement or are some with the dash mounted shifters?

(I ask because my ‘65 original TC occasionally pops out under downhill load, it was converted to HNL floor shift by a PO, vacuum engagement still in place. My all original ‘63 doesnt. There’s a lot more linkage etc. in the dash mounted systems as originally designed.)

 

[White Stripe]

So can you just spend an hour with a die grinder and make the splines pinched?

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

So can you just spend an hour with a die grinder and make the splines pinched?

you beat me to it. My machining abilities aren’t trustworthy enough to try it but from the pictures it looks like the pinched splines are narrower. I do wondering if the collar is mated to the spline or if it’s the same across all models. I feel like I’d just wind up clearancing the hell out of the splines and making it sloppy and terrible but it’s still a valid question for those who don’t suck at that kind of thing!

 

[orangefj45]

I wouldn’t attempt that.

 

[matzell]

One more shaft. I used the late 40 series shaft with fine spine output for the yoke to gain even more strength. I just installed the AA twin stick set up and had zero issues all weekend long wheeling this past weekend. They still do not have a new batch of shift forks. I know mine was warped when I first installed it. I "adjusted" it and it works fine.

 

[orangefj45]

One more shaft. I used the late 40 series shaft with fine spine output for the yoke to gain even more strength. I just installed the AA twin stick set up and had zero issues all weekend long wheeling this past weekend. They still do not have a new batch of shift forks. I know mine was warped when I first installed it. I "adjusted" it and it works fine.

I ALWAYS keep a few spare forks in stock ...... just for that reason.
The shaft you mentioned is in my pic above, 2nd from the left.
If you used the late fine spline front output shaft, then yes, strongest setup out there since it also has the fine splines for the front flange.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

One more shaft. I used the late 40 series shaft with fine spine output for the yoke to gain even more strength. I just installed the AA twin stick set up and had zero issues all weekend long wheeling this past weekend. They still do not have a new batch of shift forks. I know mine was warped when I first installed it. I "adjusted" it and it works fine.

This isn’t the first time I’ve heard of twin-sticks resolving the popping out of gear issue. Assuming the shifter isn’t bottoming out on the transmission tunnel prior to full engagement - Is the crux here that the “slop” in the stock shifter linkage doesn’t allow the shift forks to move the shift collar all the way into position for full engagement? Or do the twin stick setups simply have more “positive pressure” (less vibration/wobble, more rigidity) to hold the gear in position and fight the forces that push the gears out of engagement?

 

[matzell]

This isn’t the first time I’ve heard of twin-sticks resolving the popping out of gear issue. Assuming the shifter isn’t bottoming out on the transmission tunnel prior to full engagement - Is the crux here that the “slop” in the stock shifter linkage doesn’t allow the shift forks to move the shift collar all the way into position for full engagement? Or do the twin stick setups simply have more “positive pressure” (less vibration/wobble, more rigidity) to hold the gear in position and fight the forces that push the gears out of engagement?

My stock linkage has slop in it and did hit the tunnel slightly. I had the twin sticks in and out about a dozen times getting them adjusted to were I liked them. I also bent both levers to get the ideal throw centered in the hole. The HNL has a S bend in it. The 4wd lever has a single bend. They are much more solid and no slack like the stock set up had.

 

[Jetlander]

Received my Orion yesterday and was, for whatever reason, expecting the OEM breather to be installed. Instead, it has a brass elbow. What breather setup are the rest of you guys running? My initial thought was to run tubing to the engine bay and put a screened cap on it. Or just source another breather cap.