NATO tow hook ?? (1 Viewer)

[badmuthatrucka]

Aww, I was hoping to see another post by IdahoDoug insulting people and telling them to take a HS shop class. Coming from my dad, with 48+ years of experience as a mechanic, both auto and heavy diesel,
"...a cross member that is welded on by the factory, is part of the frame. Just as much as the frame rails are."
Well, I don't care what you think, I've got a 15 ton pintle on the back of my 80. Eat them apples!

I don't mean to be a jerk, but tell people why they are wrong, don't just say they need to take a shop class. If you are so well versed in these matters, and for all I know you are, then explain things. Don't just insult people.

 

[soenke]

I would be cautious about using that location as a heavy recovery point. When pulling from the rear, this is pulling at right angles to the frame crossmember. The same pull on a factory recovery point a few inches to the right is pulling longitudinally on the frame - a far, far stronger thing to do.

Pulling even slightly off to the side puts the load heavily on only two bolts, which are also being pulled directly against their fasteners - ie stretched. The distance from the pintle to the bumper also helps the pulling force act on your crossmember like a lever.

This is an old topic here, but I don't see this as a strong setup. Better ground clearance, yes.

DougM

I don´t understand the problem, DougM has explained the topic well before and regarding my research it´s true. You must be shure wich force you put on the crossmember. Pulling a small trailer will be fine (hopefully) -for heavy towing or recovery I will not use it for shure.

As I mentioned befor we will use a frame mounted Westfalia hitch for heavy towing (car trailer to get another Cruiser for instance), it´s approved for 3.5t. But I don´t want the weight of it all the time and the clearance is better without it.

 

[IdahoDoug]

I have a simple exercise we can use to explain my position. We'll need two strong friends and 20 feet of stout rope.

Have the two friends pull the rope tight from opposite ends. Really tell them they must not allow the rope to be pulled any closer to the other end. They are the ends of the crossmemeber and welded to the frame. The rope is the crossmember and should be tight.

now you will be the towing force. So, walk up to the center of the rope and grab it with both hands. Give it a huge yank as though you were towing from the center of that rope. What you will find is you can generate HUGE forces on the two friends trying to hold still. THey will be pulled forward toward each other due to the enormous mechanical advnantage you (the towing force) have. That is what happens in real life. The cross member bends and wants to pull the frame rails together. Not a pretty sight, nor an appropriately engineered structure for the forces of towing.

DougM

 

[MoGas]

I have a simple exercise we can use to explain my position. We'll need two strong friends and 20 feet of stout rope.

Have the two friends pull the rope tight from opposite ends. Really tell them they must not allow the rope to be pulled any closer to the other end. They are the ends of the crossmemeber and welded to the frame. The rope is the crossmember and should be tight.

now you will be the towing force. So, walk up to the center of the rope and grab it with both hands. Give it a huge yank as though you were towing from the center of that rope. What you will find is you can generate HUGE forces on the two friends trying to hold still. THey will be pulled forward toward each other due to the enormous mechanical advnantage you (the towing force) have. That is what happens in real life. The cross member bends and wants to pull the frame rails together. Not a pretty sight, nor an appropriately engineered structure for the forces of towing.

DougM

Where exactly is your Engineering degree from, Doug? The K frame crossmember is very strong.

 

[jamisobe]

I think a small trailer would be ok. The risk is when someone installs a 2" receiver at that location, without reinforcement, which could present a temptation to pull more that what the crossmember can safely support.

A pintle is good since most would not think of pulling a heavy trailer without the appropriate ball. A pintle would be perfect for a small camping trailer or a small aluminum boat over rough terrain.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

I'm sure it's not rated to pull thousands of pounds but I can't believe they would drill and thread 4 holes there if it wouldn't stand up to any force. I'm not a structural engineer and I also haven't laid my hands on the crossmember but it is braced and it doesn't look totally trivial from the frame diagram.

 

[Flank]

Have the two friends pull the rope tight from opposite ends.
... So, walk up to the center of the rope and grab it with both hands. Give it a huge yank as though you were towing from the center of that rope.

DougM

Its a cute analogy, but not accurate. Try this with two friends holding a steel bar. The rear crossmember IS a heavy reinforced piece of steel, not a flaccid veneer or rope... This goes without saying.

We can all agree that for large towing loads, the double mount add-on hitch is preferable, stonger, etc. I don't think that was ever the question. Does this not mean you can't tow smaller loads with a crossmember mount? NO.

Now, if some idiot is trying to pull a 16 foot flatbed with a tractor on back or a 20 foot travel trailer with this setup, he will get what's coming to him, I don't think that was ever the question either.

 

[badmuthatrucka]

In Doug's defense, we are also not talking about you pulling on said steel bar, or flaccid (good word choice) veneer. We are talking about people getting a false sense of security because they have a 5 ton(ne) pintle on their rear bumper, and trying pull, or more usually yank, too much weight.

Regardless of initial impressions, I agree with him that our rear cross members are not strong enough to deal with the forces some people subject them to. I only asked him to explain his point, and he did so.

Thank you Doug!

I also think that most people overload their class III hitches. They are only rated to pull a 5000 pound trailer, and I know people do more than that every day.

I think Doug's point, it's definitely mine, is that people should be smart and not stupid regardless of the subject.

Hopefully this hijack is over, I apologize for my part in it.

 

[Paul_Humphreys]

Over here the 80 series is rated to pull 3500kgs so over 9000lbs.

Paul

 

[jamisobe]

Over the 80 series is rated to pull 3500kgs so over 9000lbs.

Paul

The 80 series Kaymar tow bumper has a tow rating of 7700lbs.

 

[e9999]

snip

A pintle is good since most would not think of pulling a heavy trailer without the appropriate ball. A pintle would be perfect for a small camping trailer or a small aluminum boat over rough terrain.

that sounds awfully close to saying that a ball is stronger than a pintle. That would be generally incorrect, of course.

 

[jamisobe]

that sounds awfully close to saying that a ball is stronger than a pintle. That would be generally incorrect, of course.

Of course a ball is stronger and will provide a better tow on the street. The hitch better be strong too. But I think that a pintle will allow greater range of tongue motion, for a lightweight trailer, on rough terrain. No experience with this, but I have towed with a ball and I might have concerns that the trailer could pop off the ball in certain rougher trail conditions. Maybe not.

 

[WarDamnEagle]

Of course a ball is stronger and will provide a better tow on the street. The hitch better be strong too. But I think that a pintle will allow greater range of tongue motion, for a lightweight trailer, on rough terrain. No experience with this, but I have towed with a ball and I might have concerns that the trailer could pop off the ball in certain rougher trail conditions. Maybe not.

A ball is not stronger than a pintle and that's what e9999 was trying to say. Of course either hitch is only as strong as it's mounting condition so on the 80 you aren't able to take advantage of the full rating of the pintle.

Pintle hitches, btw, start (to my knowledge anyway) at 5 ton ratings and go up from there. Balls don't generally come close to that (at least not in automotive sizes).

 

[lowenbrau]

FWIW

I've broken planty of 18000lb straps tugging with a pintle mounted to the factory crossmember. In the case of my HJ60, that member had a fair bit of rust perforation weakening it significantly. I've also opened a fair number of factory hooks.

Those holes are indeed intended for installing a towing connection and will work well both for that and for recovery. I draw the line where the trailer gets heavy enough to need brakes. At that point there is value in adding a receiver type apparatus. Mostly so you can adjust the height and add a load leveler if necessary.

 

[jamisobe]

A ball is not stronger than a pintle and that's what e9999 was trying to say. Of course either hitch is only as strong as it's mounting condition so on the 80 you aren't able to take advantage of the full rating of the pintle.

Pintle hitches, btw, start (to my knowledge anyway) at 5 ton ratings and go up from there. Balls don't generally come close to that (at least not in automotive sizes).

I love pintles.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Sorry, just noticed this thread is still going. This debate crops up every 9 months and I engage it every time it comes up, but there is no way to settle it short of someone bending the crap out of their crossmember and that hasn't been posted. So, use the center of the crossmember for light towing and light recovery - fine.

I tow heavy and I am also biased toward safety in all situations, so my margin of safety may not be the margin of safety for everyone. Just use your head, I guess.

DougM

 

[bpassmore]

i like this one:

Trailer Parts Superstore - Combination Pintle Hook/Ball Hitch (2") #BH82000

$78 bucks...

 

[jamisobe]

i like this one:

Trailer Parts Superstore - Combination Pintle Hook/Ball Hitch (2") #BH82000

$78 bucks...

Or this one with a 12K lb rating for $100:

 

[rmcmanus8a]

Here is the one on the back of my 80.

It was ordered to go on the back of a HMMWV, but they use the type that spins, so they could not use this one.

 

[landcrusher80]

Ok guys; I guess I need to show off my stainless steel pintel hook ;p.
The decal on the tailgate does NOT refer to 350kg towing capacity.
It states the 80 (JDM VAN type VX Limited, VX, GX, GX normal body. All 5 passenger models) is rated to carry a max payload of 350kg.

VAN = Diesel
Wagon= Gasser

Land Crusher 80