Huh. I get 19 MPG with my rebuild F155, "nonUSA" distributor, and careful driving. Don't know why you'd need all that. 
My unscientific quest for 20 MPG.... almost
- Thread starter Bennett
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
dirving distances with a constant speed with maybe 10% city 90% highway I get 18MPG on a non-USA 2F.
otherwise it's around 14-15 to the mall and back.
otherwise it's around 14-15 to the mall and back.
those are my numbers, too
Total BS.... You can't change the laws of thermodynamics...
Extracted from one of hundreds of web sites explaining why this cannot work:
Here’s the deal, people: There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.
There is energy in water. Chemically, it’s locked up in the atomic bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. When the hydrogen and oxygen combine, whether it’s in a fuel cell, internal combustion engine running on hydrogen, or a jury-rigged pickup truck with an electrolysis cell in the bed, there’s energy left over in the form of heat or electrons. That’s converted to mechanical energy by the pistons and crankshaft or electrical motors to move the vehicle.
Problem: It takes exactly the same amount of energy to pry those hydrogen and oxygen atoms apart inside the electrolysis cell as you get back when they recombine inside the fuel cell. The laws of thermodynamics haven’t changed, in spite of any hype you read on some blog or news aggregator. Subtract the losses to heat in the engine and alternator and electrolysis cell, and you’re losing energy, not gaining it—period.
Edit: Forgot to add that sites that sell these things also tell you to do this: Tune up the vehicle, drive with a light foot, and slightly over inflate your tires. Guess what? All those things are where you get the MPG increase...
The thermodynamics theory is something the oil companies like Coolerman, and while it sounds plausible, if you really start looking into it you will realize there is a lot more to it than just counting BTU's. Physics is riddled with "laws" that make free energy "impossible" and this suits the power mongers so its enforced. I will agree with you that those kits sold over the internet are mostly rubbish. Some use a coil of wire which doesn't work very well as one of the things that gives you gas is surface area, the more the better. Even though what you say about the amount of energy needed to create the gas is equal to the amount of energy you are going to gain is mostly right, there is still a small amount of "free gas" produced by this process. The reason that any kit you can buy isn't going to make a huge difference to your budget is the reason that it's out there for sale in the first place. It would take a real fruitcake to try to sell kits that really do work, or even to openly talk about them. Yes for all intents and purposes the simple "feed amperage - get gas" approach does not work. But that is not to say that is the only way or that there could not be other ways of accomplishing converting water to fuel with a minuscule of energy.
Last edited:
Funny that. The one most obvious thing that is ignored is a magnet. It has many times the energy than it takes to create it, there's free energy right there. It isn't that a lot of professors can't see through the BS, they just would rather keep their jobs. Not trying to convert anyone to my heresy, just my viewpoint from observation.
A magnet does not have free energy; it just has a magnetic field. When it attracts something, their interaction produces an energy change. However, it takes just as much energy to separate them, so there is no net increase in energy. You don't get something for nothing.
So you are saying a magnetic field is not energy?
Back to basic physics for you Pin_Head.
Back to basic physics for you Pin_Head.
Wood produces a flammable gas when heated. Long time ago there was a lot of wood gas burning engines. I saw a TV show where they did this, took an old hot water heater and made a wood gas burning car. The wood fire is used to heat other wood to release the gas, then that is run through a radiator to cool it and make the concentration higher and then funneled into the carb of a standard gas burning engine. really cool TV show and it put very off less emissions then a gas car. They drove it all over london on wood mulch, and it got surprisingly high millage per pound of wood. Of course you need to plan well ahead before going anywhere in order to get your car stoked up. Had enough power they were even doing donuts in the parking lot with it.
Was real temping to look into it more, tree companies have piles and piles of free fuel they giveaway.
Found this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas
Started in 1839, so nothing new, Yet people claim to have figured out how to do this, but no secret.
Was real temping to look into it more, tree companies have piles and piles of free fuel they giveaway.
Found this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas
Started in 1839, so nothing new, Yet people claim to have figured out how to do this, but no secret.
My 2 cents on this off topic hydrogen generator. I thought it was interesting when I first heard about it, did some research. Many interested folks have published very well documented experiments using fully measured systems. Of all that I read (at least a dozen) not one could improve their mileage. They used repeated distance runs with onboard fuel flow instruments. Most all got a decrease in mileage. If you do a real scientific test you might find you are the exception, if so, find out why and you could be rich. But the data is where the truth is...
middlecalf
SILVER Star
Well, you went from a 4-bbl 600cfm carb to a 2-bbl 450cfm carb. For 305CI with 100% VE that's going from about 6850 max rpms to 4550 max rpms, so unless you're really getting on it you at least aren't choking the engine so I wouldn't expect to see a performance loss. Did you try different jets in the Edelbrock and spring-loaded ones for the off-camber? I currently have a 625cfm carb (carter 9625) for my 283CI which I think is way overkill and I'm lucky to get 8mpg. Plus I think it leaks and is flooding the engine on startup. I'm thinking of swapping it out to something more in your cmf range, probably 500cfm to allow for more realistic VE (e.g. 90%). Not sure you're success really has anything to do with Edelbrock vs. Motorcraft, but more due to right-sizing of the carb to the application.
Another aspect of hydrogen is the accelerated wear caused on the engine itself. Hydrogen is a very light gas, it seeps in to the pores in metal and weakens it. You would have to use racing valves made of stainless steel or better and many other upgrades to prevent damage from the gas itself.
No, it is not. It is ony when something is moving through the magnetic field that you generate energy. I took physics in college and that is pretty basic.
hydrogen bunk
Any energy gained from the electrolysis reaction to produce hydrogen would be exactly offset by the increased force needed to move the alternator, minus losses due to inefficiency. Pinhead is correct, there is no energy in a field, it is the motion thru the field that produces energy. You get out what you put in. Now if you could mount a huge solar panel on the roof and use it to generate hydrogen, you might gain a wee bit of mileage. But it would likely be so small you would have trouble measuring it. You can measure the amount of hydrogen and oxygen produced by electrolysis--one cc of water produces 20 cc of hydrogen gas and 10 cc of oxygen gas at normal volume. I'd like to see the stats on these converters--how much water do they actually use? Seems they would have to convert a pretty big volume of water to power a vehicle. There's a reason you don't see big hydrogen producing facilitites that use solar cells--it's too inefficient.
Any energy gained from the electrolysis reaction to produce hydrogen would be exactly offset by the increased force needed to move the alternator, minus losses due to inefficiency. Pinhead is correct, there is no energy in a field, it is the motion thru the field that produces energy. You get out what you put in. Now if you could mount a huge solar panel on the roof and use it to generate hydrogen, you might gain a wee bit of mileage. But it would likely be so small you would have trouble measuring it. You can measure the amount of hydrogen and oxygen produced by electrolysis--one cc of water produces 20 cc of hydrogen gas and 10 cc of oxygen gas at normal volume. I'd like to see the stats on these converters--how much water do they actually use? Seems they would have to convert a pretty big volume of water to power a vehicle. There's a reason you don't see big hydrogen producing facilitites that use solar cells--it's too inefficient.
Hydrogen embrittlement. You can run an engine off of pure hydrogen as a fuel but the whole lot of the engine needs to be made of really expensive metal.
As far as producing hydroden from electolysis it's pretty pointless. What does work is a water alcohol 50/50 mix that is injected in with the fuel. It cools the charge, gives you more of a bang from the rapid expantion of steam, and it stream cleans the inside of the motor.
Disclaimer though. I have never tried it but it sounds feasable and I have never read anything negative about it on the interweb.
middlecalf
SILVER Star
what happened to the original thread?
- Thread starter
- #37
I was tired of trying to get that Edlebrock to work right... I had every jet -needle and spring set you can imagine and used a "Innovate" Air Fuel ratio setup with a O2 sensor weld in to tune my rig. I had it burning 14:1 cruising and about 10:1 with my foot in it. I got horrible mpg. The worst part was I could not get that POS to start unless the motor was warm.
I re-evaluated my goal and wanted decent performance and simplicity for out on the trail.
I believe I found it with the Motor craft. I was going to go megasquirt TBi but after seeing the problems my buddy
had adding a MS to a BMW.. I decided less is more.
PS - I think you are right on the flooding at start up... probably what I was experiencing as well.
Last edited:
A Beamer is kinda an odd ball as far as the ms is concerned. I got a custom ms2/extra running on my 2f which is kinda an off ball too really well but it did take a lot of effort and research time before implementing it. The innovate wbo2 is the way to go. Works great connected to my ms2/extra.
Mods, clean up this thread
Mods, clean up this thread.
Too much nonsense hydrogen and woodburning, etc...
Not enough of what the post was really about --- a great idea in changing carbs and seeing how it affects mileage in real-time environment.
Please remove all the hydrogen generator crap posted by all the people who know nothing of physics and science.
Thanks
T
Mods, clean up this thread.
Too much nonsense hydrogen and woodburning, etc...
Not enough of what the post was really about --- a great idea in changing carbs and seeing how it affects mileage in real-time environment.
Please remove all the hydrogen generator crap posted by all the people who know nothing of physics and science.
Thanks
T
Hmmmm - so there are people who "enforce" the laws of physics?
Do you wear an aluminum foil hat to protect yourself from these "quantum police?"
