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That is VERY interesting, but would probably end up hijacking this thread! [maybe take it to BODreps for discussion?]
Membership Idea.... your feedback wanted.
- Thread starter Clutchee
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That is VERY interesting, but would probably end up hijacking this thread! [maybe take it to BODreps for discussion?]
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I have seen EXACTLY the same thing, and more so. I've had to look at guys from across the counter that tell me they can't afford the parts to fix their steering and brakes turn around and ask me to sell them some bling accessory. I have actually kicked guys out of my shop for this! I could go on, but the point is, it really IS about priorities, just like you said. I"ve done my own share of whining about event costs and value, so I know from that standpoint too. I have a lot more friends in TLCA now, so I see more value.
While this discussion is going on in a public forum, I'm sure the BOD wouldn't mind seeing some imput on pricepoints for the e-zine membership vs the paper one. Having had a chance to look at the March-April TT, I think that more than a few peeps [myself included] can begin to see the merit in pushing that print-level membership up to $40 to maintain the level of TT we've become accustomed to.
Official hijack: We (TLCA) have been super concerned over the years I have been around these discussions that the name puts off Mini/Taco/Runner/FJC members and potential members, and have been super-concerned with courting them and keeping them. Since the non-Land Cruiser Toyota 4x4s outnumber Land Cruisers by about a zillion to one TLCA should change and cater much more than we have. But during so many of these phone conversations, these folks either owned or used to own old school cruisers, and even the FJC owners knew where their rig's heritage was and it wasn't a problem.
I see where it's easy for many of our more prolific posters to write about where they think TLCA should go and what the name should be. I challenge each and every one to spend a couple dozen hours per month chatting on the phone with our members.
I don't suggest we alienate mini/Taco/4runner/FJC members at all, but my personal conversations with Joe TLCA member have not resulted in anyone saying that they thought TLCA was too cruiser-centric. Quite the contrary. I had a fellow tell me the other night ('08 FJC owner) that he wanted to see more FJ40 articles in Trails. Non-scientific poll is that we are doing fine in both our name and in how we embrace all Toyota 4x4s. And, you can't please everyone.
Happy cruisin'!
I would be interested in a life time membership (w/ TT).
Yeah, Vogt is just rolling in the dough as a teacher in Idaho :laughing:
Take it easy Pam. Eric has a point.
Interesting conversation.
"If they don't have $30 to give us, then they don't deserve to be at the event."
This is an expensive hobby. Many of us have to budget. After fuel, registration fee, camping expenses and everything else, people are looking what can be cut, what's important, and what isn't. The question then arises, "what am I getting for this additional $30?" How is this event better for me because I am paying this fee?
If I pay for raffle tickets, I at least have a hope of getting something tangible for my money. What is the benefit for the driver to have the event a TLCA event? How is the event $30 better for me? It's the difference between sleeping in a bed or sleeping on the ground at some events.
The TLCA needs to define it's mission and let people know what benefit it is to them to be a member.
I appreciate everybody works hard, but that's not a reason for me to support it. You have to work hard with a purpose. I'm not sure what that purpose is anymore.
I am planning on attending my first TLCA event after 10 years of membership (that I don't know is still current, that's a problem the TLCA needs to address as well) I'm worried about costs and I'm worried about other TLCA requirements that will make it more difficult and expensive for me to attend. Will the event be that much better because it's a TLCA event?
"If they don't have $30 to give us, then they don't deserve to be at the event."
This is an expensive hobby. Many of us have to budget. After fuel, registration fee, camping expenses and everything else, people are looking what can be cut, what's important, and what isn't. The question then arises, "what am I getting for this additional $30?" How is this event better for me because I am paying this fee?
If I pay for raffle tickets, I at least have a hope of getting something tangible for my money. What is the benefit for the driver to have the event a TLCA event? How is the event $30 better for me? It's the difference between sleeping in a bed or sleeping on the ground at some events.
The TLCA needs to define it's mission and let people know what benefit it is to them to be a member.
I appreciate everybody works hard, but that's not a reason for me to support it. You have to work hard with a purpose. I'm not sure what that purpose is anymore.
I am planning on attending my first TLCA event after 10 years of membership (that I don't know is still current, that's a problem the TLCA needs to address as well) I'm worried about costs and I'm worried about other TLCA requirements that will make it more difficult and expensive for me to attend. Will the event be that much better because it's a TLCA event?
Sorry, ruffles my feathers a bit when someone implies that people shouldn't belong because of money. $30.00 isn't that big of a deal for some and a lot for others. It is an expensive hobby I agree, but if someone is planning a big trip where breakage is an issue, that should be planned into the trip budget. I have spent several hundred dollars on trip repairs before, but it was also budgeted for.
I have never been to a TLCA event, and would like to attend one in the furture, and like to have that ability with my paid dues. As I stated before the TT magazine doesn't interest me, especially the tech portions. Trail reports are fun to read though
I like the tiered idea:
1. Basic the $20.00 fee for folks like myself who aren't interested in the mag. I have enough 4 wheel drive magazines laying around. That also would like to attend a TLCA event. E-zine accessiblity would be cool.
2. Silver $30.00 fee for folks who want the mag, with the option of attending a TLCA event. Cool for those who enjoy the magazine.
3. Gold $95.00 with 1 TLCA event for those who are more accessible to TLCA events such as Rubithon is awesome idea.
4. Lifetime $500.00 for those who have been members forever, and plan to continue.
5. Iron Butt Member $2500.00 Lifetime member & no registration fees ever to TLCA events. This would be really great for those who have more access to TLCA events in their area.
I guess a few questions I have is, what is defined as a covered TLCA event? Does this include local club events that are considered a TLCA event? or does this only cover big ones like Rubithon and regional TLCA events?
Pam
The problem with the Iron Butt award and free registration to TLCA events is the TLCA doesn't put on any event except for Rubithon. Individuals clubs put on the events and the TLCA provides Insurance for a fee (discounted group rate for all events)
So if you pay the TLCA the Iron Butt Fee, None of that goes to the club forking out their own seed money, paying the bills and working the event.
We put on Cruise Moab and we do trade 1 or 2 registration certificates with other clubs as raffle prizes, but to give a bunch of "free" registrations would only result in raising prices for everyone else because the costs dont change and the TLCA provides no money towards the event.
I can see how some might think the TLCA actually fronts and sponsors these events, but they don't with the exception of Rubithon. And I want to mention the TLCA does a damn fine job with the Rubithon. It is a first class event that everyone should try and make at least once.
So if you pay the TLCA the Iron Butt Fee, None of that goes to the club forking out their own seed money, paying the bills and working the event.
We put on Cruise Moab and we do trade 1 or 2 registration certificates with other clubs as raffle prizes, but to give a bunch of "free" registrations would only result in raising prices for everyone else because the costs dont change and the TLCA provides no money towards the event.
I can see how some might think the TLCA actually fronts and sponsors these events, but they don't with the exception of Rubithon. And I want to mention the TLCA does a damn fine job with the Rubithon. It is a first class event that everyone should try and make at least once.
So gold and ironbutt would only cover the TLCA Rubithon event?
What about a coupon system? When you pay your dues for gold membership you get a TLCA event coupon. This coupon is presented at any TLCA sanctioned event, then the local club/chapter mails it back to TLCA for the registration fee payment for that event. For the Ironbutt the same system, but limit it to X amount of coupons a year.
Pam
What about a coupon system? When you pay your dues for gold membership you get a TLCA event coupon. This coupon is presented at any TLCA sanctioned event, then the local club/chapter mails it back to TLCA for the registration fee payment for that event. For the Ironbutt the same system, but limit it to X amount of coupons a year.
Pam
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Land Use
For land use funds could it be done like your tax forms? On the bottom of every registration, not just a specific tier. It would be optional.
Example:
I would like to donate $5.00 to the following:
___ Save Tellico
___ UFWDA
___ BRC
It could also be broke down by regions, and causes nominated by that local region such as:
National
____ UFWDA
Eastern
____ Save Tellico
Western
___ Johnson Valley
This would allow members to donate to areas and causes that affect them. Then the TLCA could send the money quarterly to the specified place.
Just random thoughts, not enough sleep and too much coffee.
Pam
For land use funds could it be done like your tax forms? On the bottom of every registration, not just a specific tier. It would be optional.
Example:
I would like to donate $5.00 to the following:
___ Save Tellico
___ UFWDA
___ BRC
It could also be broke down by regions, and causes nominated by that local region such as:
National
____ UFWDA
Eastern
____ Save Tellico
Western
___ Johnson Valley
This would allow members to donate to areas and causes that affect them. Then the TLCA could send the money quarterly to the specified place.
Just random thoughts, not enough sleep and too much coffee.
Pam
I agree with what your saying. I honestly don't think any current Land Cruiser owner would want to see the name change. I don't want it to. But that is because I'm a cruiser owner. I would also expect old members to be into cruisers. In fact I would expect all the TLCA members to be into cruisers. But that is the reason why numbers have stayed stagnant the past few years. There are only so many of us out there. If you want to continue to support a gold plated magazine then your gonna have to gain more members and more money.
While I think the two membership levels will gain more members I don't think you will gain more money. I'm also willing to bet that by decreasing your printing quantity of TT you won't significantly decrease your cost. It's the setup of the job on the press that is the expensive part. Paper and quantity are not the big percentage factors. Would be interesting to see what it would of cost to print last years TT with 1000, 2000, 3000, and 4000, per press run. That would be a good way of determining how many full and partial members you would need to run the ship.
I could be wrong though because I don't know the cost involved for the partial members.
Another thought would be to pool up with another organization and form an National Toyota association with them. They handle all the other Toyota trucks and TLCA handle the cruisers. Then print one magazine. Except have two covers flip it one way and have TLCA go one way and flip it the other way and have the other trucks on the other side. I willing to bet that would appeal to the LC's and give the association a better chance of gaining more members.
The biggest issue I see with gaining non cruiser people is with the name.
When you say Toyota Land Cruiser Association to a Land Cruiser owner is a easy association and an even easier sell
When you say Toyota Land Cruiser Association to a Tacoma person it's not so easy to associate the name and it makes the sell that much harder. Not that it cannot be done but it is harder.
Question is do you want to be a Land Cruiser Club or something else?
Hi Gumby, our purposes and mission are stated quite clearly in our bylaws. Membership benefits are widely distributed. I have elaborated on that, and developed and shared a comprehensive plan for achieving our goals for our organization, which I have shared on BODREPS mailing list. If you are in a chapter, your chapter delegate should be sharing this with you, and if you are not in a chapter, your IR will.
Happy cruisin'!
Marshall, I humbly disagree with that assertion. Call a few dozen TLCA members around the country and I would bet you would come to a different conclusion. When you speak with Joe TLCA, who seldom or never comes to events or hangs out on boards, you might find that none of them has a problem with the name.
Indeed, that is what we've done successfully in the past and can work in the future.
Run the numbers and it is a business model which either sustains our current budget or enhances it and brings TT back to where we'd like. Back in December I put a model out to our board which allowed them to put in their own "what ifs?". Have you tried this model yet? You might be surprised.
We've already done this and are ready to decrease further if that's what it takes to stay solvent. We wouldn't have gone in this direction if there wasn't a significant cost saving, several thousand dollar per issue.
Actually paper and print quality are huge, and we have cut where we feel that we still deliver A-Plus content but made the most impact at cost savings.
The printing costs are exactly the same whether we run 100 copies or 6000 copies. We have looked into this extensively, and the real savings is from mailing costs. Thus the online content membership.
That's what I am trying to clarify here.
We have been looking into this. If this meets the wishes of membership, then so be it. And if it helps us stay viable, so be it.
Again, after many hundreds of phone calls, I have not found a single instance where this has been an issue.
2ndGenToyotaFan
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I'm assuming you are calling people that have let their membership laps? Their indifference about the name may be because they are not involved and dedicated to the TLCA... I would say, get the opinion of the people running events, and chapters. They are the ones that we can not afford to loose. :cheeres:
Why do these threads always get hijacked to "we need to change the name" thread or "what can TLCA do for me thread" Hasn't most of this been hashed out here: https://forum.ih8mud.com/tlca-discussion-forum/243343-just-food-thought.html
Can we get back to the topic at hand?
See below incase you forgot.
Can we get back to the topic at hand?
See below incase you forgot.
Folks I wanted to see TLCA & non members feedback to this idea
Currently you pay yearly dues to the TLCA of 30.00 a year.
This gives you a TLCA number, dash plaque, Trails, and options to be able to goto TLCA events depending on their sanctioning.
What I'm wondering is should we broaden the membership option.........
Have various levels of membershipthese are ideas....ONLY!)
Basic-$20.00 year(TLCA number,no issues of trails,dash plaque,able to attend TLCA events)
Silver-$30.00 year(current membership status)
Gold- $95.00 year (all the above & one TLCA event registration included)
Land Use Member $300.00 year(maybe majority of this would goto UFWDA or BRC
Broken Birf- $500.00 Lifetime membership (for your TLCA career you will not pay again)
Iron Butt Member $2500.00 Lifetime member & no registration fees ever to TLCA events
Folks I'm just trying to get folks thinking about the TLCA & how they would like to PARTICIPATE in it...... if you could taylor your member ship & help the TLCA & make it also go to the part you use or would like-------it would be better for everyone.
For me & my family...... we usually goto 3-6 events a year....... if I could have a member ship where I paid my TLCA dues & also didn't have to worry about registration fees it would rock.
Again just trying to get the hamsters moving in folks brains
I've been absent from this thread for awhile and it seems I stirred the pot a little.
TLCA is doing something for the events. They provide very reasonable insurance to the events. And yes it can be argued that some of the events don't need insurance because they are held in private off road parks that require their own insurance. Last year my non-TLCA club hosted a one day event for 30 participants due to the place we were holding the event we were required to have insurance. For a one day event the insurance was just shy of $2000. The chapters who hold multi-day events are not getting charged that much for their insurance through TLCA. I don't know what it is currently but I know it was less than $500 for a 3 day event in the past, the low $400s seem to ring a bell in my head. By having every person at an event be a member of TLCA it creates a different legal tier of liability. Basically the law says that if you are a participating member of an organization at a member event you are partially responsible and liable for what goes on there. This is the same for chapters and by requiring memberships on your trail rides you are creating a different set of legal rules which would greatly help you should an accident occur.
You also get TT, which to some folks like Pam, isn't much of a perk. You used to get decent discounts from vendors, but as of late anyone can negotiate a deal on their own. So you really can't argue those as pluses of membership. As far as there not being any tech for you, I disagree completely. Very seldom is there any tech in TT that I can use (historically it has been for older LCs mostly 40 series) and I've always been a wagon guy, yet I read every word and file it away. I read the mini truck stuff too. Several times I have remembered this information and it has been helpful to me on the trail as it has got someone else off the trail that day. Last summer I came upon a HS kid stuck in the mountains with a broken down Toyota pickup. I remembered something about the EFI relay and wire in the early EFI trucks. Sure enough we found an undersized wire that caused the EFI relay to overheat. I happened to have one for my Cruiser that would work and we got him back on the road. So even if it isn't useful to you personally for your rig it might be useful to you someday.
TLCA has done a lot for land use and it is a respected organization. I went to a Blue Ribbon Coalition meeting a couple of years ago and the speaker spoke about how TLCA has been influential in their organization and helped with land use projects. The speaker was using TLCA as an example of how organizations could help. That does a lot for all of us, or at least the members in the US. I won't speak to how it helps those overseas as it probably doesn't and there has been mixed reviews from Canada as what it does for them. So part of your dues are contributing to that.
As for you think of me implying someone doesn't belong because of money, that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm amazed at how a diverse group of people can come together to form clubs and an even more diverse group of people can come together at an event. These people come from all walks of life and are bound by their interest in Toyota 4wds. I come from pretty humble means myself, I certainly wouldn't want to encourage monetary restrictions on people.
The only time I've ever witnessed Land Cruiser owners being elitist is when they are with a mixed group. Toss a bunch of Cruiserheads in with Jeeps and you'll see what I mean. Or even mixing of the different series of Land Cruisers, and you'll get some friendly rivalry.
My comment about it not being a huge part of the expense is based on my experiences in attending events. $30 for TLCA membership shouldn't keep anyone away from an event. If that is straw that is breaking the camel's back. They are probably riding the wrong camel. Hotels, food, camping, FUEL, registration fees, raffle tickets, broken parts, initial preparation of the vehicle, etc... are far more limiting monetarily wise than a $30 membership fee. And I agree some events are getting outrageously expensive for their entry fees. But you have to remember they have fees too, like renting a place to hold the event, BLM and Forest service fees, and all the other expenses to ensure participants have a good and safe time.
And why should you be able to attend a TLCA event for members only if you aren't a member? You shouldn't. Non-members aren't entitled to anything. You have to pay if you want to play. If you aren't interested in joining why attend our events?
Chapter dues are something each chapter decides upon. So there is a huge variety in due structure. I've heard of as high as $80 a year to as low as $10 a year. Some include TLCA dues while most do not. What the club's needs and desires to do as a club are what drives the dues. All TLCA chapters agreed that all of their eligible members would become TLCA members (TLCA Bylaws Article 4 section 3). This is something they agreed upon when they went to TLCA and asked to be a chapter. If you are joining a chapter you are agreeing to play by their rules. I would still imagine even joining the most expensive clubs would still be a very small percentage of a Toyota 4wd owner's annual expenses. Do the math!
And then there are members like me that would probably still belong if there were no events and no TT and not contributions to land use. We belong because we feel a sense of community in the TLCA and we want to belong to that. For us, it is more than just a club, it is what binds us to our friends.
I'm all for a tiered dues structure. That way those who wanted to belong but didn't want TT or to attend events could do so at a reasonable rate. I'm also thinking that this whole voucher and coupon system could just become a big headache. I'd like to see TLCA membership stay independent from the events. It just sounds like a lot of added work for not a lot of added benefit.
I don't think you'll find a better group of 4wd people in the world than the members of TLCA. If you own a Toyota 4wd you are most of the way there, why not join? Give it a shot. You might just like it.
TLCA is doing something for the events. They provide very reasonable insurance to the events. And yes it can be argued that some of the events don't need insurance because they are held in private off road parks that require their own insurance. Last year my non-TLCA club hosted a one day event for 30 participants due to the place we were holding the event we were required to have insurance. For a one day event the insurance was just shy of $2000. The chapters who hold multi-day events are not getting charged that much for their insurance through TLCA. I don't know what it is currently but I know it was less than $500 for a 3 day event in the past, the low $400s seem to ring a bell in my head. By having every person at an event be a member of TLCA it creates a different legal tier of liability. Basically the law says that if you are a participating member of an organization at a member event you are partially responsible and liable for what goes on there. This is the same for chapters and by requiring memberships on your trail rides you are creating a different set of legal rules which would greatly help you should an accident occur.
You also get TT, which to some folks like Pam, isn't much of a perk. You used to get decent discounts from vendors, but as of late anyone can negotiate a deal on their own. So you really can't argue those as pluses of membership. As far as there not being any tech for you, I disagree completely. Very seldom is there any tech in TT that I can use (historically it has been for older LCs mostly 40 series) and I've always been a wagon guy, yet I read every word and file it away. I read the mini truck stuff too. Several times I have remembered this information and it has been helpful to me on the trail as it has got someone else off the trail that day. Last summer I came upon a HS kid stuck in the mountains with a broken down Toyota pickup. I remembered something about the EFI relay and wire in the early EFI trucks. Sure enough we found an undersized wire that caused the EFI relay to overheat. I happened to have one for my Cruiser that would work and we got him back on the road. So even if it isn't useful to you personally for your rig it might be useful to you someday.
TLCA has done a lot for land use and it is a respected organization. I went to a Blue Ribbon Coalition meeting a couple of years ago and the speaker spoke about how TLCA has been influential in their organization and helped with land use projects. The speaker was using TLCA as an example of how organizations could help. That does a lot for all of us, or at least the members in the US. I won't speak to how it helps those overseas as it probably doesn't and there has been mixed reviews from Canada as what it does for them. So part of your dues are contributing to that.
As for you think of me implying someone doesn't belong because of money, that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm amazed at how a diverse group of people can come together to form clubs and an even more diverse group of people can come together at an event. These people come from all walks of life and are bound by their interest in Toyota 4wds. I come from pretty humble means myself, I certainly wouldn't want to encourage monetary restrictions on people.
The only time I've ever witnessed Land Cruiser owners being elitist is when they are with a mixed group. Toss a bunch of Cruiserheads in with Jeeps and you'll see what I mean. Or even mixing of the different series of Land Cruisers, and you'll get some friendly rivalry.
My comment about it not being a huge part of the expense is based on my experiences in attending events. $30 for TLCA membership shouldn't keep anyone away from an event. If that is straw that is breaking the camel's back. They are probably riding the wrong camel. Hotels, food, camping, FUEL, registration fees, raffle tickets, broken parts, initial preparation of the vehicle, etc... are far more limiting monetarily wise than a $30 membership fee. And I agree some events are getting outrageously expensive for their entry fees. But you have to remember they have fees too, like renting a place to hold the event, BLM and Forest service fees, and all the other expenses to ensure participants have a good and safe time.
And why should you be able to attend a TLCA event for members only if you aren't a member? You shouldn't. Non-members aren't entitled to anything. You have to pay if you want to play. If you aren't interested in joining why attend our events?
Chapter dues are something each chapter decides upon. So there is a huge variety in due structure. I've heard of as high as $80 a year to as low as $10 a year. Some include TLCA dues while most do not. What the club's needs and desires to do as a club are what drives the dues. All TLCA chapters agreed that all of their eligible members would become TLCA members (TLCA Bylaws Article 4 section 3). This is something they agreed upon when they went to TLCA and asked to be a chapter. If you are joining a chapter you are agreeing to play by their rules. I would still imagine even joining the most expensive clubs would still be a very small percentage of a Toyota 4wd owner's annual expenses. Do the math!
And then there are members like me that would probably still belong if there were no events and no TT and not contributions to land use. We belong because we feel a sense of community in the TLCA and we want to belong to that. For us, it is more than just a club, it is what binds us to our friends.
I'm all for a tiered dues structure. That way those who wanted to belong but didn't want TT or to attend events could do so at a reasonable rate. I'm also thinking that this whole voucher and coupon system could just become a big headache. I'd like to see TLCA membership stay independent from the events. It just sounds like a lot of added work for not a lot of added benefit.
I don't think you'll find a better group of 4wd people in the world than the members of TLCA. If you own a Toyota 4wd you are most of the way there, why not join? Give it a shot. You might just like it.
Hey Clutchee
I like your idea, add a poll to this thread and get a vote going.
It would be Un-Official of course but we could at least see the general thoughts.
I like your idea, add a poll to this thread and get a vote going.
It would be Un-Official of course but we could at least see the general thoughts.
Even lower! $5 Canadian to join the Swamp Donkeys!
I sorta like Pam's Idea of the checklist to donate extra to the landuse causes. As a Canadian, I don't mind contributing to those causes a bit (will wheel in US very rarely), but it would make it much easier for people to donate, plus it would make the TLCA look a lot better if they give more, but at the same time not raising dues.
Cheers,
Deny