Hydro Assist (1 Viewer)

[David Norris]

Hello everyone,
Not really new to the group but I don’t post that much. I’m looking for some insight and some opinions on this Hydro assist set up. The one thing I do know is that it doesn’t work. So, I thought I would share my trials and tribulations with you all and see if I can get some input as to whether something can be done differently or if I just need to scrap Hydro assist altogether.

The one thing that I think everyone will notice from the photos is the fact that the PSC ram is welded to the driver side radius arm. Trust me I question this to Repeatedly when the Off-Rod shop that did the set up suggested this. I even called Dave over at #deltavs To get his take on this install. He didn’t like it.

The intent of this Hydro assist install was to actually increase off-road drive ability especially when in Full locked situation’s. The problems I was having with the inability to steer when all three lockers were engaged.

Today, when driving on normal paved roads my rig receive steering input from simple bumps in the road. Naturally, we welded a steering ram to a suspension component. But beyond that with this Hydro assist set up it’s actually harder to steer the vehicle than it was before adding it especially at slow speeds. I have attached photos of the set up and welcome any suggestions thoughts and criticism. I am at the point of scrapping this entire set up and going back to stock.

 

[David Norris]

Additional photos

 

[PIP]

Does it feel like the steering speed is limited, like if you try to turn the wheel quickly it won't let you?

If you rev the engine to say, 1500-2000, does it go away and allow you to steer quick?

If that's the case then you need a larger flowrate pump or a smaller assist ram.

I might suggest hiring a shop that can actually weld to do this stuff in the future. That is poor execution of a bad plan.

 

[cruisermatt]

ram assist welded to radius arm = bad

simple as that

 

[David Norris]

That

Does it feel like the steering speed is limited, like if you try to turn the wheel quickly it won't let you?

If you rev the engine to say, 1500-2000, does it go away and allow you to steer quick?

If that's the case then you need a larger flowrate pump or a smaller assist ram.

I might suggest hiring a shop that can actually weld to do this stuff in the future. That is poor execution of a bad plan.

is exactly what it feels like. I agree that the Ram should never have been welded to the radius arm. With that said I don’t know that there is another option while trying to keep the current set up. I would honestly like to scrap the ram altogether and go back to a stock steering platform but the question is what can be done to the stock pump/gear so that it does not feel like I’m driving a car with a empty PS reservoir?

I am fully aware that this is a bad setup and I will be ditching it ASAP.

 

[Njck22]

What on earth is that skid plate. Why did you do this to such a nice 80. Yes going lock to lock in a 6000lb vehicle with a wheel in a rut is going to ask a lot out of your steering setup. Buy a rock crawling jeep if you want to do that kind of stuff. Or if you really need full hydro go somewhere that actually knows what they're doing. Full-Hydro on 80 Series Axle - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/full-hydro-on-80-series-axle.98601/

So much questionable work on your 80, just from the pictures you posted.

 

[ppc]

The intent of this Hydro assist install was to actually increase off-road drive ability especially when in Full locked situation’s. The problems I was having with the inability to steer when all three lockers were engaged.

When full locked the problem is not the ability to steer/turn the wheels, the stock system does that without a problem in almost all cases the exception being rock crawling with very large tires . The problem is related to traction. When locked you have both front wheels driving at the same speed when the inside tire needs to turn slower because it is traveling a shorter path to make a turn. One or both wheels will have to loose traction and that is compounded by both rear wheels driving strait ahead. It just wants to go straight ahead no matter the direction the wheel are pointed. If you need to make a turn then turn off the front locker. That will also keep the stress level on the birfields much lower. Turning sharply with the front locker on and pushing the skinny pedal is going to result in a big kaboom.

 

[David Norris]

What on earth is that skid plate. Why did you do this to such a nice 80. Yes going lock to lock in a 6000lb vehicle with a wheel in a rut is going to ask a lot out of your steering setup. Buy a rock crawling jeep if you want to do that kind of stuff. Or if you really need full hydro go somewhere that actually knows what they're doing. Full-Hydro on 80 Series Axle - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/full-hydro-on-80-series-axle.98601/

So much questionable work on your 80, just from the pictures you posted.

When full locked the problem is not the ability to steer/turn the wheels, the stock system does that without a problem in almost all cases the exception being rock crawling with very large tires . The problem is related to traction. When locked you have both front wheels driving at the same speed when the inside tire needs to turn slower because it is traveling a shorter path to make a turn. One or both wheels will have to loose traction and that is compounded by both rear wheels driving strait ahead. It just wants to go straight ahead no matter the direction the wheel are pointed. If you need to make a turn then turn off the front locker. That will also keep the stress level on the birfields much lower. Turning sharply with the front locker on and pushing the skinny pedal is going to result in a big kaboom.

Thanks for the comment. I plan on removing the ram this week along with the skid plate and returning the steering to stock.

 

[baldilocks]

Plenty of members here have adapted hydro assist to an 80 with the stock steering rod configuration. It is possible. The reason that shop put your ram down low is because the front sway bar doesn’t leave enough clearance to fit the ram above the tie rod like it should be with a bracket welded to the the axle housing and the stationary end of the ram secured to it very near the differential and the working end of ram clamped to the far left end of the tie rod.

Most people who do hydro assist with the stock tie rod location behind the axle remove their front sway bars permanently. I welded home made sway bar brackets to the front axle that are taller than the stock brackets. I don’t usually run the front sway bar, but if I do, like for a long road trip with a loaded roof rack, the taller brackets make it possible for the way bar to clear the ram rod.

Yes, with the stock pump, steering will be slower at idle making it seem like it requires more driver input. This issue should be nonexistent by 900-1,000 RPM. The slower steering at idle and the lack of return to center is something you have to adjust to in order to enjoy the extra steering power and stability off road.

Who tapped the steering gear box? Got photos? Your hydraulic cylinder definitely needs to be mounted above the tie road in the manner I described before.

 

[David Norris]

Plenty of members here have adapted hydro assist to an 80 with the stock steering rod configuration. It is possible. The reason that shop put your ram down low is because the front sway bar doesn’t leave enough clearance to fit the ram above the tie rod like it should be with a bracket welded to the the axle housing and the stationary end of the ram secured to it very near the differential and the working end of ram clamped to the far left end of the tie rod.

Most people who do hydro assist with the stock tie rod location behind the axle remove their front sway bars permanently. I welded home made sway bar brackets to the front axle that are taller than the stock brackets. I don’t usually run the front sway bar, but if I do, like for a long road trip with a loaded roof rack, the taller brackets make it possible for the way bar to clear the ram rod.

Yes, with the stock pump, steering will be slower at idle making it seem like it requires more driver input. This issue should be nonexistent by 900-1,000 RPM. The slower steering at idle and the lack of return to center is something you have to adjust to in order to enjoy the extra steering power and stability off road.

Who tapped the steering gear box? Got photos? Your hydraulic cylinder definitely needs to be mounted above the tie road in the manner I described before.
View attachment 2856852View attachment 2856853View attachment 2856854

This is exactly the help I was hoping to find. Can’t tell you how much I appreciate the input. How much ram travel do you have? 9 and 3/4 to 10 inches?

 

[peacesells63]

What size (diameter) is your ram? I would not go over a 1.5” with a stock pump, it does not pump enough volume to fill the ram quick enough. it should still have plenty of power when turning the wheel slowly though.

Was anything else done when the ram was installed? pump rebuild?

Are there any sharp bends in the suction line between the reservoir and pump? Any groaning or cavitation noises when turning?

 

[baldilocks]

This is exactly the help I was hoping to find. Can’t tell you how much I appreciate the input. How much ram travel do you have? 9 and 3/4 to 10 inches?

I bought a ten inch ram and then limited it externally with some washers which you may or may not be able to see in the photos. When I measured the tie rod throw it came out to exactly 5” each direction. I decided to limit it about 1/8” each way just as a precaution.

 

[Railwelder93]

I’m no mechanic, but I think the steering ram welded to the radius arm is about 1000% of the problem.

 

[Railwelder93]

Nice truck though!

 

[David Norris]

I’m no mechanic, but I think the steering ram welded to the radius arm is about 1000% of the problem.

Agreed. I think we covered that in my original post.

 

[David Norris]

Nice truck though!

Thanks. I am definitely starting this hydro assist over and I’m taking a page out of baldilocks book. I can see how his set up really works.

Trust me… I questioned the hell out of this install and voted against it. But reluctantly agreed to try it. Now I know. …

 

[David Norris]

I bought a ten inch ram and then limited it externally with some washers which you may or may not be able to see in the photos. When I measured the tie rod throw it came out to exactly 5” each direction. I decided to limit it about 1/8” each way just as a precaution.

Well at least we got that part right. That’s exactly my same set up on the throw.

 

[2fpower]

What @baldilocks said.

More pics here.

Builds - What the Foo is this???

If it warms up, all raptor liner the entire inside, otherwise will have to wait till after April to do it. Next step is to work on a rear tube bumper and to install the new power steering cooler. Also need to work on power supply for rear auxiliary power and rock lights. I'm thinking about...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Road Apple]

For more inspiration, checkout the hydro setup @Broski build. He uses a 9” ram which limits travel about 3/16” on each side.

Builds - Broski's Adventure Rig build thread

Although not part of my 80 build . I have all ways been a ford Guy but the Land Cruiser has impressed so much that I picked up this Tundra. I well be selling my F250 super duty, I am retired now and don't need that big truck now. The Tundra well be my daily driver. One of the guys that pilots...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Broski]

What on earth is that skid plate. Why did you do this to such a nice 80. Yes going lock to lock in a 6000lb vehicle with a wheel in a rut is going to ask a lot out of your steering setup. Buy a rock crawling jeep if you want to do that kind of stuff. Or if you really need full hydro go somewhere that actually knows what they're doing. Full-Hydro on 80 Series Axle - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/full-hydro-on-80-series-axle.98601/

So much questionable work on your 80, just from the pictures you posted.

Where all this questionable work, The Reg look super clean and built with quality parts.
Yes the Hydro is a mess, the skid plate is obviously part of the mess.
What he has is Hydro assist, why would you suggest full hydro on a street driven Truck ?
The full hydro you reference is on the old Short Bus that Christo over at See built years ago as a highly modified purpose built off road rock crawler.
Lastly you don't need a jeep to hard core rock crawl.