Get new bolts. If I had it to do again I would have gone that route. I had (2) that seemed to "stretch" on the last two 90* turns. It's held together fine but extra piece of mind would be nice to have.
Head is off, need initial diagnosis
- Thread starter jcardona1
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Whs. we're re talking $140. Not worth the debate. Do it right the first time.
I don't understand all this "do it right" stuff. It's perfectly acceptable to reuse the head bolts if they measure out OK and torque down OK. The FSM gives clear instructions on how to do this to ensure success.
I did not reuse mine because I suspected the PO had the head removed once before and I did not have the right equipment to measure them. I was contemplating the ARP bolts since they were cheaper and not a pain in the butt to install like the OE.
ARP's are much stronger and not stretch to yield bolts. They can provide more clamping force but also need to be retorqued, I would only suggest them if you're going FI.
Replace em and forget em. I agree do not take a chance. And a 2nd on ARP bolts.
- Thread starter
- #28
Thanks for the suggestions so far. Let's add some more info 
I used a digital micrometer last night to check the diameter of the bolts, specifically this model here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PTGBR6/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The FSM says the diameter needs to be 10.85mm to 11mm, with a minimum width of 10.6mm. I quickly measured a few bolts and they're all within that spec. The problem is the FSM doesn't say HOW to measure, or where to take the measurement from. Does anybody know?
Here's a few pics. This is same bolt, measured in various different sections of thread:
Now this bolt however, was trashed. This is the one from the very last bolt hole on the passenger side. If you look at the gasket around this bolt, it was very deteriorated. You can actually see the section where threads are thinner than the rest, and you can feel the difference if you run your finger across it:
Here's how it measured on the thinnest section. This one is without a doubt not reusable.
I used a digital micrometer last night to check the diameter of the bolts, specifically this model here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PTGBR6/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The FSM says the diameter needs to be 10.85mm to 11mm, with a minimum width of 10.6mm. I quickly measured a few bolts and they're all within that spec. The problem is the FSM doesn't say HOW to measure, or where to take the measurement from. Does anybody know?
Here's a few pics. This is same bolt, measured in various different sections of thread:
Now this bolt however, was trashed. This is the one from the very last bolt hole on the passenger side. If you look at the gasket around this bolt, it was very deteriorated. You can actually see the section where threads are thinner than the rest, and you can feel the difference if you run your finger across it:
Here's how it measured on the thinnest section. This one is without a doubt not reusable.
- Thread starter
- #29
So here's my dilemma. If I have to spend almost $200 for new bolts I'd rather spend the money on some ARP studs. Although I have no plans to go forced induction anytime, it seems like the ARP studs are better than the OEM bolts.
But which ones do I use? I've read various topics about this and couldn't find out which ARP bolts folks are using. I remember reading something about ARP studs for the Supra. Does anybody have a part number?
And what about torque? The FSM doesn't give a torque value for tightening down the head. So how many ft lbs are the ARP studs torqued down to?
But which ones do I use? I've read various topics about this and couldn't find out which ARP bolts folks are using. I remember reading something about ARP studs for the Supra. Does anybody have a part number?
And what about torque? The FSM doesn't give a torque value for tightening down the head. So how many ft lbs are the ARP studs torqued down to?
The ARP studs will have to be retorqued after some heat cycles.... if you are ok with that they are stronger and provide more clamping force.
- Thread starter
- #31
I wouldn't mind having to pull off the valve cover for a re-torque. Is this a one-time job? Anybody have info on which ARP studs to use? I can't find it through searching. I read some comments about the Supra studs being a bit too short for the 1FZ head...
- Thread starter
- #32
Ok found this thread. ARP part # 209-4702. The picture posted by nlxtacy shows 80ft lbs...is that enough? I thought I read Doug saying the stock bolts ended up being about 130ish ft lbs?
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/684639-arp-head-studs.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/684639-arp-head-studs.html
This is the first time I have ever heard ARP's needing to be retorqued. When I had my engine built (a 22re, but same principle), I had ARP studs installed and the builder never mentioned needing a retorque...and I specifically asked him. He said to due to thermal dynamics, the heat cycles actually will pull the bolt down. ARP's use a higher torque number than the OEM ones call for.
FWIW...I have about 20,000 miles on the new engine and not a problem. I am curious to hear more on the ARP's needing to be retorqued.
FWIW...I have about 20,000 miles on the new engine and not a problem. I am curious to hear more on the ARP's needing to be retorqued.
Have to pull the cams too. Not terrible but yes a one time job.
From ARP's tech:
"Yes it's recommended that you re-torque after it's been run up to
operating temp and let cool completely down. Then check again after a few weeks"
RonF
The torque is going to be specific to the studs that you buy and the material they are made in. I beleive the 2JZ studs work, and the L19 studs are torqued to 35, 70, 105lbs.
From ARP's tech:
"Yes it's recommended that you re-torque after it's been run up to
operating temp and let cool completely down. Then check again after a few weeks"
RonF
The torque is going to be specific to the studs that you buy and the material they are made in. I beleive the 2JZ studs work, and the L19 studs are torqued to 35, 70, 105lbs.
- Thread starter
- #35
DOH! The cams...forgot those are in the way. Doesn't sound like fun.
Did a web search for 'ARP re-torque studs' and there's literally hundreds of threads about this very same topic from all sorts of forums. Re-torque, don't re-torque, called ARP they said not to, called ARP they said yes. WTF. Can we just get ONE definitive answer from ARP? Why don't they include it in the instructions?
Here's the instructions for the Opel kit # 209-4702 http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/209-4702.pdf
Did a web search for 'ARP re-torque studs' and there's literally hundreds of threads about this very same topic from all sorts of forums. Re-torque, don't re-torque, called ARP they said not to, called ARP they said yes. WTF. Can we just get ONE definitive answer from ARP? Why don't they include it in the instructions?
Here's the instructions for the Opel kit # 209-4702 http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/209-4702.pdf
Yes and there are different metals used for the studs and what kind of headgasket you use is going to change if you have to or not. If you use a paper gasket you probably will if you have the head and block decked perfectly flat and use an MLS gasket you probably won't since there is less change. I think if you are not going to be adding boost the stock bolts will work well.
- Thread starter
- #37
Here's the bucket I fall under, which is probably most of the folks on this forum:
- No plans for boost or forced induction
- Head will be decked as needed
- Block will be cleaned but NOT decked unless found to be warped
- Will use new OEM Toyota head gasket
- Want to use new ARP studs (Opel kit #209-4702)??
The reason for wanting ARP studs is strength and ability to be re-used multiple times. I don't want to have to pay $200 again for a set of bolts.
- No plans for boost or forced induction
- Head will be decked as needed
- Block will be cleaned but NOT decked unless found to be warped
- Will use new OEM Toyota head gasket
- Want to use new ARP studs (Opel kit #209-4702)??
The reason for wanting ARP studs is strength and ability to be re-used multiple times. I don't want to have to pay $200 again for a set of bolts.
I was wondering the same thing being at 157k myself and then last week going over and sorting through the documents that came with the truck from the previous owners I saw that it was replaced at 90k!
Wheeew...
I did this build also. You will find a lot of dried gasket in the pan. I used the "red" instead of the "grey" silicone and is working great. Only leaks slightly from Crank Sensor. I will reseal on the next oil change.
I used CLR on the Valves over night and CLR worked great! Then lapped them.
If you plan on removing the oil pans, ask me and I let you know how I did it.
Your pics look normal, just remove the gasket. I used a razor blade scraper and a running vaccum cleaner as I worked.
When re-installing your head, beware of the heater hoses in the back on the firewall. Have someone push it out of your way or just remove them might be best.
You are not supposed to reuse "stretch bolts", though some do, I do not. These bolts do break, so follow the directions carefully. The directions tell you where to put oil during the "bolt on" and torque process.
Good luck
I used CLR on the Valves over night and CLR worked great! Then lapped them.
If you plan on removing the oil pans, ask me and I let you know how I did it.
Your pics look normal, just remove the gasket. I used a razor blade scraper and a running vaccum cleaner as I worked.
When re-installing your head, beware of the heater hoses in the back on the firewall. Have someone push it out of your way or just remove them might be best.
You are not supposed to reuse "stretch bolts", though some do, I do not. These bolts do break, so follow the directions carefully. The directions tell you where to put oil during the "bolt on" and torque process.
Good luck
powermad
%##@*&^%
All bolts stretch when tightened.
Not all torque turn bolts are one time use.
A lot of components I work on are held together with torque turn bolts.
Some are use once and throw away and others are reusable if they are in spec.
I use a Snap-On torque/angle wrench and can see if a bolt is not clamping down the same as the others.
They should all be close to 5 ftlbs to each other.
Example, Volvo D13 rocker shaft bolts torque to 15 ftlbs then 120deg.
At 120 it beeps and the final ftlb torque is displayed. Around 65 ft lbs + - 5lbs.
If one shows 40 ftlbs after 120 deg I will replace that one as it has stretched beyond usable limits.
These particular bolts can be reused 4 times after the initial torque.
You are supposed to mark them with a center punch but a lot of people forget to or just don't do it so you have to pay attention when putting them back together.
Cummins ISX head bolts are torque turn and are reusable as long as they are in spec.
They torque to 150 ftlbs, then 300 then 90 deg.
It all depends on what the specs are for the particular job you are on.
Not all torque turn bolts are one time use.
A lot of components I work on are held together with torque turn bolts.
Some are use once and throw away and others are reusable if they are in spec.
I use a Snap-On torque/angle wrench and can see if a bolt is not clamping down the same as the others.
They should all be close to 5 ftlbs to each other.
Example, Volvo D13 rocker shaft bolts torque to 15 ftlbs then 120deg.
At 120 it beeps and the final ftlb torque is displayed. Around 65 ft lbs + - 5lbs.
If one shows 40 ftlbs after 120 deg I will replace that one as it has stretched beyond usable limits.
These particular bolts can be reused 4 times after the initial torque.
You are supposed to mark them with a center punch but a lot of people forget to or just don't do it so you have to pay attention when putting them back together.
Cummins ISX head bolts are torque turn and are reusable as long as they are in spec.
They torque to 150 ftlbs, then 300 then 90 deg.
It all depends on what the specs are for the particular job you are on.
