My suggestion is to take all the belts and the 2 camshaft back out. Then turn the engine and see if it turn.
Head Gasket done - no start
- Thread starter musthave
- Start date
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There is no indication that this is a bearing.
No metal shavings.
It "shut off"
I'm thinking he timing chain came off, broke, a slipper came off and jammed, something.
A failed or broken head bolt could cause a catastrophic coolant failure.
Pull the oil cooler (Did you have this out previously?) and check it for bad failure.
I still think you should pull the head again before you look at just pulling the engine.
Bearings don't seize in 4 seconds or something that catastrophic with out BAD noise or squealing.
Did you only have the head off?
Did not separate engine / transmission?
Did you drain the transmission and refill it?
Is something else like an impact socket left on the flex plate to tighten the harmonic balancer and it got wedged into the flex plate?
Start with what you took off. You won't be doing anything you won't have to do anyway.
Belts
Valve cover
Timing chain
Cams
Head
No metal shavings.
It "shut off"
I'm thinking he timing chain came off, broke, a slipper came off and jammed, something.
A failed or broken head bolt could cause a catastrophic coolant failure.
Pull the oil cooler (Did you have this out previously?) and check it for bad failure.
I still think you should pull the head again before you look at just pulling the engine.
Bearings don't seize in 4 seconds or something that catastrophic with out BAD noise or squealing.
Did you only have the head off?
Did not separate engine / transmission?
Did you drain the transmission and refill it?
Is something else like an impact socket left on the flex plate to tighten the harmonic balancer and it got wedged into the flex plate?
Start with what you took off. You won't be doing anything you won't have to do anyway.
Belts
Valve cover
Timing chain
Cams
Head
Just occurred to me:
Did you remove the index bolt from the camshaft on install?
Did you remove the index bolt from the camshaft on install?
TurboDennis
SILVER Star
This whole situation just seems very odd to me. I'd hold off on pulling the engine for now.
If there was catastrophic failure in the bottom end, you would definitely see evidence of that in the oil/oil pan. You can still poke around the oil baffles with a flexible borescope. You should be able to see most cylinders from the bottom, but i have a feeling there might not be anything wrong there.
Try applying a lot more force on the crank pulley bolt CCW. It seized rotating CW, so rotating it CCW shouldnt cause any more damage. I would apply torque CCW until the crank pulley bolt breaks loose (or the engine un-seizes).
I have a feeling this might be related to a piece of hardware or something similar that you accidentally dropped into the timing chain cover during assembly/disassembly.
If there was catastrophic failure in the bottom end, you would definitely see evidence of that in the oil/oil pan. You can still poke around the oil baffles with a flexible borescope. You should be able to see most cylinders from the bottom, but i have a feeling there might not be anything wrong there.
Try applying a lot more force on the crank pulley bolt CCW. It seized rotating CW, so rotating it CCW shouldnt cause any more damage. I would apply torque CCW until the crank pulley bolt breaks loose (or the engine un-seizes).
I have a feeling this might be related to a piece of hardware or something similar that you accidentally dropped into the timing chain cover during assembly/disassembly.
damn this sucks. i am at the same point in my head job. talk about worry....
keep us post bud.
keep us post bud.
^^^^^
I agree it's not quite 'pull the engine' time yet. Or wouldn't be for me.
The being seized thing is most certainly something mechanical, it simply didn't run long enough to have seized (sans any noise) for lack of lubrication.
The engine had been turned over a number times with the starter, during the initial, "No Spark", part of this saga. Wouldn't that bolt have bound instantly?
Maybe, unless it popped out about then, then was picked up by the timing chain and is now jammed between the timing chain and the crank gear.
I looked in the photo of the head with all the coolant and did not see the bolt, however, it doesn't mean it didn't start out there.
That's why I'm asking, so we can think about possibilities.
Someone else here left theirs in and it made a godawful noise, but kept running until it ground off the head of the bolt and didn't make noise anymore.
I remember reading that post now that you mention it.
- Thread starter
- #90
After crank no start all day, yes, it started, ran smooth for less than 5 seconds. There was absolutely no sound at all. I have great hearing and notice the tiniest thing being off on a cruiser while driving, etc. There was NO sound when it stopped. Then stopped and wouldn't budge. The oil cooler was pulled during HG job. I did notice a drip of radiator fluid from below a bolt head yesterday though. Once I have the exhaust side off I will pull the cooler. I have a suspicion there. I only had the head off, nu further. I didn't do transmission fluid, I lost a bit when I did the sensor there and hadn't added any. It was only a bit, maybe 2 oz.
Now the valve cover is off, camshafts are out, timing chain feels very tight. The tensioner works fine. Once I have exhaust side off I will pull the head. I'll get it to the shop and see what they say. I suspect it's fine but we'll see. Maybe a discount this time'round.
Yes, it was removed, and went in a bag, so I know that's not down there.
I couldn't agree more. I am not pulling it yet, I am taking off the head tomorrow though. I poked around, with borescope, only saw one thing of interest, something looks broken. But it could be the angle and it's a piston. Pics below. Couldn't see #1 and #2 very good.
According to torque multiplier I've pushed CW to about 600 pounds, not moving. I will try CCW tomorrow before I remove anything just to see. I have sprayed a lot of lubricant down to each piston, just to let it seap in hopefully.
Anything is possible, but I don't think I dropped anything down below while working. It is possible though I suppose.
This is the piece that looks broken. I can't tell for sure though. As you can see though, no metal shavings on any of the surfaces, etc.
- Thread starter
- #91
The service bolt was absolutely out, I have a picture of the head before I put the cover on, and I have the bolt in a bag. But I do feel like the timing chain area is the issue.
If that borescope pic show the pic of a broken skirt on a piston, then you hydraulic'd a cylinder with a sudden influx of coolant. Unless you find something jammed into the timing chain area.
You mentioned you have the cam out and the timing chain is "very tight" as in "Something is jammed in there?"
I hope it's timing chain issues and NOT a cracked piston.
Keeping fingers crossed.
- Thread starter
- #93
I went out and had another look, that is the piston. Broken skirt. The timing chain was super tight, I tapped it several times with a rubber punch to get it off. It doesn't "feel" the way it did while doing the HG originally.
Should I still try to pull the head and timing cover (without pulling the upper pan)? Or am I probably at a time where I pull the engine? Man I don't like the sounds of that, but read the FSM and heck, I'm past halfway there anyways. Front is already off, that's a 15 minute job for me now. Just the thought of it...
And, can someone confirm that it's possible to remove the timing cover without removing the upper pan?
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If that's a broken skirt, it's all gotta come apart. The only reason to do it piecemeal is to determine cause. Did the timing gear stop, causing it to bind and bust the skirt? Or did the cylinder hydraulic and bend a rod, causing the crank to bind and possibly breaking the chain and wedging it in?
To pull the engine, you can do it and leave the transmission and Tcase in the truck, but having separated a trans and engine in the truck, then putting the transmission back in, it was a GIANT PITA.
There is a fairly recent thread here about removing the timing cover with the head still on and the upper oil pan still on. I'm pretty sure it can be done without removing the upper pan, but you will have to remove some of the bolts of the upper pan.
Just so you know, I had something similar on a Chevy engine. I was having running problems and during my diagnosis, I managed to fire #7 cylinder multiple times with the valves closed because the lobe was worn off the #7 exhaust on the cam.
Long story short, I hydraulic'd #7 cylinder.
Had the heads rebuilt by a shop.
Had the block pulled and rebuilt with a new rod and new cam
Reinstalled about 3 years later
Immediately had coolant problems
redid intake manifold gaskets
Same problem, Hydraulic'd # 7 AGAIN.
Pulled the engine and shipped to a performance shop to be evaluated and rebuilt.
The guy that did the heads cut too deep into the seats and cut into the water jackets. As soon as it warmed up, the seats leaked and filled the cylinder with coolant. Had new heads installed and had the lower end rebuilt again. The original head had been ported and polished and were pretty F'n awesome. New heads I lost about 75 HP and it never ran right again. I sold the truck (It no longer fit the family anyway...)
So, I can relate. I'm sorry it has to be your 1FZ-FE. This too shall pass, like a painful kidney stone.
I would recommend shopping for another 1FZ-FE down there to see if you could get another, if at least for parts.
H
Cams are out and it still won't turn, looks very much like you have a broken piston skirt and we still don't quite know how the coolant got on top of the head (either cracked head or oil contamination). There's really nothing else to be determined with the engine in place. Very sorry to say....it's time to pull it.
- Thread starter
- #96
Wow, that sounds like a heck of an experience! I feel like I may be able to relate to that at least a little.
So at this point, no need to pull the head and figure out taking off the timing cover. Just pull the engine, trans, and tcase. Then take things apart and figure out the DAMage. My back suddenly started having spasms... Yea, pull the engine...
- Thread starter
- #97
Yea, I hate to hear it... but it's time. Man, this will be a whole new experience for me.
Understand completely and I am very sorry this has happened to you. But any further diagnostics will be easier performed with the engine out the vehicle. My guess is that you'll find more than one issue with it at this juncture. I need to pull mine later this year and go through it. But getting ready to slap a head-gasket on it for now. Hoping like hell....I have better luck than what you've experienced.
Please be sure and post 'follow ups'...so that other's might benefit from what you find.
- Thread starter
- #99
Thanks @LC4LIFE @flintknapper . @BILT4ME I think I've made the decision to try to do this in my driveway. Once it's out I'll figure out what I need to do. I'm sure I'll have a bunch of questions as I take it out, break it down, etc. And pictures and information for the next guy that needs to do this. I hope your HG job goes MUCH better.
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TurboDennis
SILVER Star
I feel for you, brother. Everytime Im about to start/drive the truck after completing a major job, I get a few new grey hairs, praying that something doesn't go horribly wrong...
A few tips that come to mind:
-I would still try and unseize it by applying a lot more force CCW (just don't forget to put tranny in neutral). It will need to be done anyway, and its much easier to apply that kind of force with the engine still installed.
-If you do manage to unseize it, definitely pull it out without the tranny. I see a lot of people here suggesting that its easier to pull the entire drivetrain as an assembly due to the upper 2 bellhousing bolts, but that's not true if you got the right tool for that job. Those 2 bolts take a few minutes. I posted more details with some pics here: Pulling just the engine. Having done it MANY times both ways, I definitely prefer pulling the engine by itself. If you don't have the proper extension, BUY IT. You will thank me later.
- Don't pull the head before pulling the engine. The engine removal hooks are on the head.. You can use some other points on the block to attach the hoist, but you want to attach it as high as possible to keep it more stable during removal. ESPECIALLY if you are pulling it together with the tranny/tcase
- Do your absolute best to determine what caused this mess yourself. Its entirely possible that its the fault of the machine shop, and if you take the whole assembly there without knowing what caused it, they might conceal the evidence to try and blame it on something else.
A few tips that come to mind:
-I would still try and unseize it by applying a lot more force CCW (just don't forget to put tranny in neutral). It will need to be done anyway, and its much easier to apply that kind of force with the engine still installed.
-If you do manage to unseize it, definitely pull it out without the tranny. I see a lot of people here suggesting that its easier to pull the entire drivetrain as an assembly due to the upper 2 bellhousing bolts, but that's not true if you got the right tool for that job. Those 2 bolts take a few minutes. I posted more details with some pics here: Pulling just the engine. Having done it MANY times both ways, I definitely prefer pulling the engine by itself. If you don't have the proper extension, BUY IT. You will thank me later.
- Don't pull the head before pulling the engine. The engine removal hooks are on the head.. You can use some other points on the block to attach the hoist, but you want to attach it as high as possible to keep it more stable during removal. ESPECIALLY if you are pulling it together with the tranny/tcase
- Do your absolute best to determine what caused this mess yourself. Its entirely possible that its the fault of the machine shop, and if you take the whole assembly there without knowing what caused it, they might conceal the evidence to try and blame it on something else.
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