F Motor is a Better Oiler

Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
Cold weather. Got me thinking. I used to run mineral oil, but - no longer listening to the whole, don't do synth for the leaks. A rubbish burn-drum has been filled with all kinds of cheap information! But, the oil goes to the recycling.

For as long as I can remember, folks used to espouse the 2F as a better oiling path. Like who are the people who knew that, and why did they broadcast such information? What was in it for them? Did Toyota start the rumor? Who are the objective-types who make up this crap? Apparently, by-pass oil filtering (like F) is the way to go.

And let's just start this discussion by asking what is the pressure for opening the anti-drain/by-pass flap in your favorite filter? What is the volume that can be run thru a filter media at cold-start winter conditions (volume/time)? Crickets.

I still can't figure out why there are no big pieces in the filter when I cut it open, but, there are chunks bled from the pan. Maybe when the cold weather allows the oil filter to run bypass, it dislodges the big debris from the filter and exits thru the by-pass flap? Maybe oil filters are an outright automotive scam, like balancing tires to account for the imperfect wheel mounting - flip the wheel on the balancer 90 or 180 degrees and you get a slightly different set of weights to place because it was only close to being centered and that makes a huge difference. The Society of Automotive Engineers article came out in the 90's, but no foil-hat do I wear. I could totally see the experiment, original factory filter engine with specified-interval oil changes but, no filter change, vs an engine that goes thru a variety of filters, and oil changes at normal-people's-schedule. Which one will last longer?

Could the smaller Toyota updated part number oil filter can fulfill factory engineering specs for psi of by-pass valve opening, but, it can't deal with the volume of oil needed to run thru the filter, or the other way around? I'm going to see if an AC Delco PFL400A filter can provide better oil pressure than the tiny 1/2-pint Toyota updated part number filter. Bring it up to temp, then change the filter. The analog needle on the factory instrument cluster is so appreciated right now.

The F oil set-up is a great design. By branching the oil plumbing for two functions, filtering and lubrication, the pressure can be dedicated for each function. The benefit is at less than optimal winter operating temperatures, or having a clogged filter. I also imagine that lower pressure filtering would make for easier filter element engineering. Like hello, you don't need to filter cold oil when you can barely compress it thru the rocker assembly. But, that is how most engines are set-up these days? The same oil filter installed in the F will not be exposed to the direct and higher pressure of the 2F oiling (assuming the oil pumps are the same), and could minimize ever opening the filter's internal bypass valve (expelling material caught but not stuck in filter element?). Also, the cold-start oil pressure in the F can be greater because it doen't have to be compatible with running cold oil thru the filter media/bypass valve.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
With Toyota filter:
20221107_102033.jpg



with Delco filter, just ten minutes later, still in the 40 degree range outside: There is more black between the needle and the middle mark; with Delco filter the 2F has greater oil pressure. Both are measured at idle.
20221107_103031.jpg



Use the fuel needle to compare perspective on the oil reading. I tried to rest the camera on the same spot on the contour of the steering column shell.



20221107_103339.jpg
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
22,264
I still can't figure out why there are no big pieces in the filter when I cut it open, but, there are chunks bled from the pan. Maybe when the cold weather allows the oil filter to run bypass, it dislodges the big debris from the filter and exits thru the by-pass flap?

First the full filtered oil started 9/73. 2F was a 1/75. The late F155 (F) engine had the new oiling system. Any oil going to the oil filter in either system is coming directly from the oil pump. Any chunks/debris from past the oil filter that makes it's way to the oil pan are prevented from getting to the oil pump by the pick up screen. Technology has changed greatly since the F2)F. Back then in cold weather I would idle the engine until it warmed up in cold. In extreme cold weather would put the transfer case in neutral and transmission in gear to warm up the gear oil otherwise shifting was hard especially on a column shift three speed. By the time any load was put on the engine the oil thinned and wouldn't be bypassing the oil filter if it was with cold oil. All I have ever done is do regular maintenance and played attention to how the engine ran and sound. Definitely did over think it.
 

middlecalf

SILVER Star
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Messages
4,694
Location
Sweet, Idaho
In extreme cold weather would put the transfer case in neutral and transmission in gear to warm up the gear oil otherwise shifting was hard especially on a column shift three speed.
Great idea!
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
Let me reiterate. The basic inquiry was how can I optimize oil pressure?

I'm leaning toward fully synth for winter; so what about an oil filter? The original oil filer was enormous compared to the updated part (photos from web). The updated Toyota part, it is like half the volume of what is the factory used on my 4-cylinder-daily. There are numerous physical differences, that I don't care about, or YouTube about. Don't actually care about filtering the oil, just want the pressure to be as far to the right as it is in the summer, if I can make that happen. Not happy with aftermarket stuff, but, I'll do what it takes to satisfy the pressure gauge.

What oil filter are other F.5 / 2F engines on Mud using? And where is your oil pressure at given rpm?

This clear oil pan and rocker cover is super entertaining, maybe educational. About 9.00
 

Skreddy

SILVER Star
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
1,768
Location
Stanwood, WA
Let me reiterate. The basic inquiry was how can I optimize oil pressure?
I should leave well enough alone…..

Where in that original, super long, rambling, darting post did you ask how to optimize oil pressure?

Side note, I get less oil pressure in summer in most of my vehicles because the oil is hotter and thinner.

Sorry, whiskey lemonades get the better of better judgement every time.
 
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
1,105
... in cold weather I would idle the engine until it warmed up in cold. In extreme cold weather would put the transfer case in neutral and transmission in gear to warm up the gear oil otherwise shifting was hard especially on a column shift three speed. By the time any load was put on the engine the oil thinned and wouldn't be bypassing the oil filter if it was with cold oil. .... Definitely did over think it.
I still do this with almost all my manually shifted vehicles in winter.

Paging Mark W.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
Where in that original, super long, rambling, darting post did you ask how to optimize oil pressure?

Side note, I get less oil pressure in summer in most of my vehicles because the oil is hotter and thinner.
The 2F oiling relies on your choice of oil filter to do the pressure regulating, how easy is it to get oil thru the media or under the by-pass/anti-drain flap, etc. That makes the Thailand Denso 90915-YZZZD3 filter a highly questionable filter if I can install a filter from a 4-cylinder that is double the filter media and double the volume.

Greater oil pressure means that more oil can pass thru tiny passages on the upper engine/rocker assembly, at a given temperature/ viscosity. My oil pressure suffers in in the cold. @Skreddy your signature suggests that you have an F engine. It looks more complicated than just temperature/viscosity, there is a mechanical pressure regulator that is under a boss cast on the drivers side of the block by the oil pan?
 

Unimogguy

SILVER Star
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
627
Location
Virginia
With Toyota filter:
View attachment 3161840


with Delco filter, just ten minutes later, still in the 40 degree range outside: There is more black between the needle and the middle mark; with Delco filter the 2F has greater oil pressure. Both are measured at idle.
View attachment 3161842


Use the fuel needle to compare perspective on the oil reading. I tried to rest the camera on the same spot on the contour of the steering column shell.



View attachment 3161841

Did you replace the oil that was removed when you removed the Toyota filter?

I think you’d have to cut each filter open to determine differences. To determine how those differences could potentially effect the results you’ve seen.

How many inlet holes? Metal internal core with holes or louvres? What are the end plates made out of paper or metal? How many pleats are on each filter? What is the anti drain back valve made out of? Does the bypass valve have a coil spring? What is the bypass valve settings? Total square inches of media?

@Living in the Past great idea! I’ll have to try that this winter.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
No, the Toyota filter ran for less than a half tank of gas with fresh 5W-30 then I swapped in the Delco one.

There are enormous differences on the outside of the filters, inlet hole size and number being the first variety of traits. All I care about is the amount/pressure of filtered or unfiltered (with bypass open) oil I can push thru the can.
 

flx

SILVER Star
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
766
Location
France
5W30 in a F engine ?? Are you living north of the artic circle?
I think a more viscous oil may help if you are afraid of your oil pressure.

My oil pressure always stays around the 2nd mark of the gauge (a hair before to a hair after), even with an idle at 500rpm.
I used to run 15600-41010 when it was available and now I use the smaller 90915-40002 but it changed nothing to my oil pressure on the gauge.

If my FJ40 hasn't run for some time I disconnect the coil (or just not pull the choke if cold) and turn it with the starter until oil pressure reaches the first mark (which can take quite some time).
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
22,264
No, the Toyota filter ran for less than a half tank of gas with fresh 5W-30

5W30 in a F engine ?? Are you living north of the artic circle?

I agree on 5W. I run 0W and 5W in my modern Toyota engines. But those are much tighter tolerances. Would worry about more blow by in warmer weather with 5W. 35rh parallel north is probably close to my homes. One at 1,100' the other at 6'900'. Elevation not what parallel makes a huge difference in temperature. I use my 40 series closer to a tractor than a sports car. I remember the early F engines had straight 30W oil recommended in the owner's manual. Never seen 5W ever for any F engines including the 3FE in my FJ62.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
I have 5W-30 synth installed right now in my 2F engine. It is cold in the American Southwest. The '75 Land Cruiser Owner's Manual says to use 5W-20 for up to 50 deg. F. It won't get that warm until March, and I'm using a modern version of a heavier oil than the 5W-20 recommended. I could also do a 10W-30 as per the manual, but, I'd rather go with thinner oil. During the summer, with the coolant at full temp, the oil pressure is all the way to the mark on the right, using mineral 10W-40 and the Denso filter. The gauge on the cluster tells me that things are good, according to the Owner's Manual. It is harder to get that kind of oil pressure during these months. They don't list a 5W-30 in the manual, but, I'm confident that this modern synth oil is 2F compatible.

I likely/hopefully won't be driving below -10F. even though I've seen it go as low as -18F. But, I certainly don't want to set the Cruiser up that way.
 

flx

SILVER Star
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
766
Location
France
Are you changing your oil twice a year to go with the season?

Manual also state "Do not use SAE 5W, l0W, or 5W-20 in sustained high-speed operation."
Winter or summer in the end the engine should get to full temp, some time I even feel the 20W50 ends up like water after a big day of heavy usage.
To be fancy nowadays there are even 10W50 full synth motorbike oil x)
 

pjohnson

SILVER Star
Joined
Jan 15, 2003
Messages
2,942
Location
Idaho
Ugh, I just lost 10 minutes I will never get back for a 'splitting hairs' chat like conversation. Shame on me.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
Are you changing your oil twice a year to go with the season?

Manual also state "Do not use SAE 5W, l0W, or 5W-20 in sustained high-speed operation."
Winter or summer in the end the engine should get to full temp, some time I even feel the 20W50 ends up like water after a big day of heavy usage.
To be fancy nowadays there are even 10W50 full synth motorbike oil x)
Change for heavy wheeling is three times per year, light wheeling is twice - I'm way more inspired to do a blend in March, and summer weight in May, than just a winter-summer - spring is a very inspired time to rack up miles.

5W, 10W are both straight-grade products, so I never considered them, nor do I see them on the shelf. 5W-20 multi-grade is for snow plows because the 20 is too light, no problem. I didn't want to thin my winter-hot-oil-temp-grade anyway, just the cold startup to lower than 10W. My 5W-30 should be okay(ish).?
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
553
Location
35th parallel north
Multimeter will suffice. Photos please, post #19 already. Don't tell me that the analog needle is no good because there is still no data to compare it to. It isn't like I'm starting a technical conversation about what a tractor is and what a tractor isn't.
 

micruz60

Unleaded Regular
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
1,814
Location
East of the Crossroads
Be sure to get your zinc !
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom