ECU Tuning options

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Good discussion keep it coming...


Another couple of things to throw out there... The ability to have multiple fuel/timing maps for pump 87octane, 93octane, E85, race gas. Although it's not everyone's cup of tea, being able to have multiple maps to choose from is definitely an advantage of running a system that is tunable. That may be one place where the MAF manipulation falls short.

Also, consider this, all superchargers are not equal, all turbos are not equal. Just because you have a certain amount of flow from one turbo or a certain boost level, "PSI", does not mean that fueling will be even close when running a different turbo at the same boost levels or same flow. Turbo effeciency varies greatly from one turbo to the next and especially between older generations to newer generations of turbos. Although the MAF is able to provide better results than a MAP based system when going from one turbo to another, or to a supercharger or to naturally aspirated, there are still great variances between setups to be able to use one MAF upgrade on various setups. If you do go that route, you should monitor AFR's, timing, and knock sensor voltage very closely on the dyno and also on the road for a while until you are sure that the setup is safe.

On the topic of fueling. Most people consider 11.5-12.0 AFR to be ideal for performance in forced induction setups of any kind. This is about as far as you want to go while still being somewhat "safe". What you have to remember tough is that there are so many other variables such as air temperature, air density, altitude, humidity, bad fuel, different amounts of ethanol depending on where you fill up, various additives that different gas stations use in their fuel, overheating, charge air temperature, heatsoaked intercoolers, dirty fuel filters and injectors, etc... etc... etc... With all of this taken into consideration one quickly realizes that in a daily driven setup that is meant to be reliable while producing a reasonable amount of power no factory ECU would put forced induction AFR's that high in the range that would be ideal for power/torque. Instead they leave a buffer to account for the countless things that could and do go wrong and change every day. With that said, on a vehicle like the 80-series that is often driven offroad, in streams, in mud, at slow speeds, and then driven as a commuter vehicle the next day, it would simply be silly to not leave a large safety buffer. In my personal opinion an AFR around 10.5 would be at just about that sweet spot for the FZJ80 while boosting at anything above 2.5psi. This is just rich enough to avoid losing too much power due to being too rich, but still rich enough to help avoid detonating and pinging.

Just my 2 cents. I may be totally wrong too :)

So... back to actual hardware we can use to tune with. Anyone with personal experience with any piggybacks, fuel controllers, fuel/timing controllers, or full standalones on these trucks?
 
If you are wanting "more" performance capability than the stock FZJ fuel system can support, (which is unbelievable already), just add an additional injector controller. I had great results on the Turbo 62 with a Split Second controller. You can quickly change the map via/laptop and dump as much fuel in as your heart desires. I used a wideband system with a data logger and had all the perimeters neccessary to get the results desired. I didn't have control over the timing with the unit I used, but I believe Split Second makes one that does. It's really inexpensive and was damn reliable.

Sure, you could go full stand alone and all that jazz for a "perfect tune", but you could also spend many $$$ getting there. I was running a few degrees advance acrross the entire board and never had any issues.

Good luck with burning the rubber off your rig:)
 
akarilo said:
If you are wanting "more" performance capability than the stock FZJ fuel system can support, (which is unbelievable already), just add an additional injector controller. I had great results on the Turbo 62 with a Split Second controller. You can quickly change the map via/laptop and dump as much fuel in as your heart desires. I used a wideband system with a data logger and had all the perimeters neccessary to get the results desired. I didn't have control over the timing with the unit I used, but I believe Split Second makes one that does. It's really inexpensive and was damn reliable.

Sure, you could go full stand alone and all that jazz for a "perfect tune", but you could also spend many $$$ getting there. I was running a few degrees advance acrross the entire board and never had any issues.

Good luck with burning the rubber off your rig:)
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Although adding an injector in the intake stream will work and be a cheap route, I would much rather stay away from it. Just like meth injection and water injection kits that inject into the intake stream the problem is that you really have no control over how much of that fuel goes down each intake manifold runner and into each cylinder. Yes, it works, but I'd personally not trust this sort of a solution on any of my own cars. I know lots of people go this route and there are plenty of arguements to support it. But there is too little control over equal distribution and you eventually find the limitations of the setup when you realize that one or two cylinders have been running lean. This is very difficult to determine even with a wideband or egt setup since you're monitoring at only one spot.
 
SUMOTOY said:
At 0-5v signal (actual .1>4.85v), I doubt you'd get a lot of range adjustment out of changing MAF 'calibration'. IME with the early Audi 0-5v Hot Wire MAF's, they have a pot adjustment on the MAF itself to change signal resistance. On the dyno, I could get it to affect airflow signal by ~10% before it threw a code. Changing the software programming started the process all over again. My conclusion: MAF signal conditioning gives very narrow range of tune

MAF's tend to be really accurate at really low airflow, where they are much better measures than MAP+narrow band 02 systems. IME, if using the hunt and peck method to MAF tuning, you want to get the vehicle in the state of tune you are running, and have the max MAF output be 4.85volts at peak power on the dyno. The riddle then becomes: To tune that way, the variable would be what?

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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well this will have to be a wait and see. Theoretical assumptions at this point is mute since the hard data is still months away.
 
baktasht said:
Although adding an injector in the intake stream will work and be a cheap route, I would much rather stay away from it. Just like meth injection and water injection kits that inject into the intake stream the problem is that you really have no control over how much of that fuel goes down each intake manifold runner and into each cylinder. Yes, it works, but I'd personally not trust this sort of a solution on any of my own cars. I know lots of people go this route and there are plenty of arguements to support it. But there is too little control over equal distribution and you eventually find the limitations of the setup when you realize that one or two cylinders have been running lean. This is very difficult to determine even with a wideband or egt setup since you're monitoring at only one spot.
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Totally agree, IME with one over 10 years ago, you find the back runner cylinders run rich, and the fronts run lean - WB02 values can falsely 'appear' normal doing this. The secondary injector still doesn't address the fuel dump at WOT in the 80 in any way. I'm pretty convinced that the FZJ80 needs fuel and spark taken away from the factory ecu all together.

WRT OBDII, if it's a 96 or newer, (in IL at least) you need an OBDII port that functions. If you don't or they can't get a read (some Audis are famous for flaky signals from OBDII), you do not pass emissions. Had a very interesting discussion with a EPA tech about this once...

Baktasht comments about turbo/SC operating differences etc, speaks specifically to Density Ratio (correcting psi readings to mass of air). Since there is no charge air temp sender input to the stock computer, the variation of tuning would be significant (read: it already is and most don't know it). Easily accomodated in a laptop computer pigback/standalone, difficult in a fixed table hardware hunt and peck. I put 20% larger injectors in a standalone a couple weeks ago, went to the tables, entered the new injector size, the software changed all affected duty cycle tables with 1 press of a key.

Landtank, I'm not speaking to theory, btdt hunt and peck hardware routine on turbo ecus no less. It's not fun, and you learn the risks of doing so quickly. Before you change the MAF signal, how it works might help you understand what it is, it will, can or can't do. Specifically to your apparent 'target', I don't think you want to change the input values per sae, you just want the input values to reflect the new air demand under all conditions. That approach can work with the SC (fixed boost profile), but is very difficult in turbo applications. Where you might start, is to get some before and after LTMAF install - signal voltages at full boost WOT, compare it to the WOT signal voltage profile in a turbo and normally aspirated MAF equipped truck. Forget closed loop operation, what are comparative absolute highest MAF signal readings?

I'm treading delicately here, because I was instructed by a moderator to stay out of your LT-MAF mod quite a while ago. I did go thru many of Christos posts and responses on the removal of the FPR line and the theory vs practice of MAF application. The easiest way to address it all, is to give the WOT comparative values that are currently on stock and modded trucks. This is NOT a scanguage function, this is a signal voltage function. Conditioning a MAF signal seems absurd to me. Attempting to condition a 0-5 volt signal because you can, begs the question: Why? MAF signal output voltage should be .1-4.85v, because that's what the ecu software is looking for in the tabling. Specific to the stock ecu software, whatever the highest stock truck signal value is, has to be the same with any MAFM mod. Otherwise, you need to change the programming. Using your approach seems to assume MAF voltage is linear to airflow, it's not.

Baktasht, the E85 programming is neat stuff. Allows massive timing advances with more boost before detonation. Huge power increases can come from it. We had an E85 034EFI A4tq at my steamboat track event last year, driving behind it was like smelling fries cooking at Micky D's. And he put down 60hp more than any other A4turbo tuner advertised as max. WRT 80 ideal AFR's, that's a dyno pull vs output, but in a low boost application, I doubt the 80 will see gains below the mid 12 AFRs myself

HTH and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
 
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baktasht said:
Although adding an injector in the intake stream will work and be a cheap route, I would much rather stay away from it. Just like meth injection and water injection kits that inject into the intake stream the problem is that you really have no control over how much of that fuel goes down each intake manifold runner and into each cylinder. Yes, it works, but I'd personally not trust this sort of a solution on any of my own cars. I know lots of people go this route and there are plenty of arguements to support it. But there is too little control over equal distribution and you eventually find the limitations of the setup when you realize that one or two cylinders have been running lean. This is very difficult to determine even with a wideband or egt setup since you're monitoring at only one spot.
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Not debating anything here, just reporting that I had good results with the setup I was running. Sounds like you will not be happy without going to a full stand-alone (for the control you require anyway). Stop typing and get out there and start wiring one up:idea:
 
Does anyone know if there's any documentation (e.g. circuit schematic, IC spec sheets) available for the Fujitsu 10 series ECU that is used on the FZJ?
 
Just a copy and paste:

MegaSquirt3 is coming soon
Speed-density, alpha-n or MAF for fuelling calculations
* 16x16 fuel tables in 0.1% steps with true interpolation and movable rows/columns
* 16x16 spark tables in 0.1 degree steps with true interpolation and movable rows/columns
* Wall-wetting transient fuel control for better driveability
* On board datalogging to SDcard (max 333Hz sample rate) this is sweet! now i can run at the track without hiding my laptop from officials.
* Tuning by serial or built-in USB-serial port.
* 8 channels sequential fuel (hi-z injectors or max one low-z per channel)
* 2 additional fuel channels (hi-z or low-z)
* 8 channels sequential spark (logic level output)
* 6 channels relay drive
* 4 'spare' analogue inputs
* Two wideband oxygen sensor input (external controller required)
* GM-style stepper idle control
* 2 and 3 wire PWM idle control
* Closed loop idle control
* Closed loop mixture control - ideally with wideband
* Closed loop boost control
* Two stage nitrous control
* 2 step type launch control
* CAN communications to interconnect other Megasquirt products e.g. transmission controller
* Table switching, mainly for dual fuel use.
* Staged injection
* Individual cylinder injector trim
* Injector phase timing
* Individual cylinder spark trim
* Support for numerous OEM trigger wheel patterns.
 
akarilo said:
Not debating anything here, just reporting that I had good results with the setup I was running. Sounds like you will not be happy without going to a full stand-alone (for the control you require anyway). Stop typing and get out there and start wiring one up:idea:
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I'm not looking to do any of this on my own personal truck. I'm fine with the stock slow, sluggish way it drives. Otherwise, I'd already have an ECU installed on the truck and ready to tune. This is just good old sharing of experience, and maybe the workings towards a real plug and play solution for the community in the future.
 
well, I'm in MA and have to have the OBDII port available to pass inspection if it's a 1996 or newer truck. So the ECU swap is out unless I pick up a 1995 truck and then it's open season on what I could put in there.

But knowing that the stock system can handle 9.5 psi with a good safe AFR at WOT is great.
 
SUMOTOY said:
It looks like I'll be spending significant time with a VEMS tech rep (and standalone EFI savant) for coffee and dyno runs this coming Friday. If anyone with an OBDII 80 is interested in a plug and play turnkey (not kit like megasquirt kits) EFI system, send me a PM before Friday. If there is enough interest here, this would be a good time to guage what VEMS interest is.

FYI, as a rule, the plug and play app VEMS units uses all the stock sensors and the stock ECU plug. It has the ability to use WB02, boost control, generic or individual table inputs can be changed, can scale MAF and MAP inputs, and IME, run some pretty massive injectors. Added bonus, if the LT-MAF was built right, VEMS should even be able to properly scale it.

If not a lot of real interest, I'll just pick his brain on the best options for piggyback/fuel and fuel/ignition only controllers.

Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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Now this I'm actually interested in. Find out anything and everything you can please. :cheers:
 
What is the benefit of the VEMS unit vs. Megasquirt II, other than it is pre-assembled (MS can be purchased pre-assembled as well)? Sounds as if it has the same/similar features?

EDIT: Quick web research: VEMS uses Megatune, for tuning, the same software as Megasquirt. VEMS was originally a takeoff of the original Megasquirt, but then developed it's own chip/board, and became a "closed" product (as opposed to open source). Has been slower to be adopted possibly due to the "closed" nature, and support (I think this refers to forums/users, not neccessarily the company itself) is not seen as being as abundant. Sounds like either requires a commitment to DIY (tuning mainly) to a significant level.
 
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If you're going to go piggy-back, why not do a MAP-ECU2?

Underdog Racing Development

The MAP-ECU2 (Manifold Absolute Pressure Electronic Control Unit) is a full featured fuel and timing controller with the following additional features:

Full Timing advance and retard control of up to eight (8) channels for Distributor, Group Fire or Coil On Plug configurations using a 20 x 19 (380 zone) table.
Auxiliary Injector control using a 20 x 19 (380 zone) table.
OEM O2 Sensor/AFR Sensor Adjust 26 x 19 (494 zone) table allowing control over Air/Fuel ratios, even in Closed-loop mode.
Expanded RPM scale now up to 10,000 RPM.
Two (2) complete sets of Fuel, Timing, Auxiliary Injector, O2 Adjust and EBC tables selectable using a dashboard mounted switch.
Electronic Boost Control with 1000 RPM target boost points.
Launch Control
Dual channel Fuel Cut Defeat
Speed Cut Defeat
Built-in 35PSI MAP Sensor
External MAP Sensor option
User selectable pressure scale configurations
The MAP-ECU2 kit includes: MAP-ECU2, Main 16-Way harness, 18-Way Timing Harness, PC CDROM software, 2 meter serial cable, Inlet Air Temp (IAT) sensor and manual in PDF format.

The MAP-ECU(2) can be installed on any 1-10 cylinder engine in less than an hour, and it can completely replace the restrictive factory air meter.

More horsepower and torque possible by removal of the restrictive factory air meter and control over timing.
Latest updates allow several modes of operation including MAF Sensor intercept or elimination (may require additional hardware).
The ability to use the stock ECM to control larger fuel injectors and/or performance upgrades.
Alter OEM Air/Fuel ratios, even in Closed-Loop mode, for improved gas mileage or power.
Retains the daily drivability of the stock ECM which is usually sacrificed with a full aftermarket engine management upgrade.
Real-time tuning using WindowsTM based MAP-CAL2 software supplied with the unit.
High-resolution 494 point Fuel table (0-10,000 RPM and -10 to +35 PSI) allows fine tuning for performance and drivability.
Ability to run different fuels or performance levels using two (2) completely independent Fuel, Timing, O2 Adjust, Auxiliary Injector and Boost Control tables switchable on-the-fly.
Built-in display and logging of key engine parameters such as RPM, Throttle Position, Boost Pressure, Airflow, Timing Adjust, Auxiliary Injector Duty, Boost Control Duty, etc.
On-board support for display and logging of popular aftermarket wideband Lambda sensors/controllers.
Two (2) independent on-board programmable NOS window activation switches can also be used to turn on other accessories at set RPM/PSI points.
Faster and stronger boost with the on-board programmable Electronic Boost Control (EBC) using solenoid control of the wastegate.
Fast and repeatable launches using the on-board programmable Launch Control.
Removal of factory Fuel and Speed Cuts using the on-board programmable Fuel Cut Defeat and Speed Cut Defeat.
Compensate for wheel size or gearing changes with the on-board programmable Speed Adjust.
Drive a Shift Light or alter VTECTM point with the on-board programmable RPM Switch.
Single unit can be used for Naturally Aspirated or forced induction applications with user selectable pressure scale configuration.
Simple upgrade from MAP-ECU using the same 16-Way harness and ability to import and convert V2.1 and V2.2 Fuel tables.
Simple piggy-back installation only requires 7 wires to operate with no major re-wiring of OEM components.


MAP-ECU2 has two basic operating modes for controlling fuel:

MAP-ECU2 controls the fuel by intercepting the signal from the Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF), or the stock Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor, and modifying using a three dimensional map table based on engine load and engine RPM, or;
MAP-ECU2 can generate the signal internally based on manifold pressure and engine RPM and allows the stock Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAF) to be removed from the vehicle. This may require the use of an external MAP sensor on some vehicles.
MAP-ECU2 controls ignition timing by intercepting the signals from the stock ECU going to the igniter or smart coils, and can retard or advance the timing signals.

MAP-ECU2 units shipped from URD will contain the latest firmware updates to allow the latest features to be used. Some features are not compatible on all vehicles and in some cases not all features can be used at the same time. Some features may require additional hardware to use. Please contact URD for specific information on your application.
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I'm using the MAPECU2 in my 5vz-fe 4runner. It works much more effectively than the FTC unit I had in there before.

I would say the biggest plus to going piggy-back is ODBII compliance and smogging. You know, going to a standalone would be great and it was something I thought about with my 4runner many many times, but there is something about the reliability of the stock ECU still looming in the vehicle that gave me the warm fuzzies.

The MAPECU2 works just fine with the MAF sensor on my junk, but I still need to hook up the IAC sensor. So far it is keeping the CEL happy and I'm comfortable enough with it to drop a 2.1" pulley on and not worry about things leaning out and blowing up.

I will be the first to say that the jury is still out on the MAPECU2 for me and I will also say that I'm even still very distrustful of piggy backs (I know I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here) as the FTC unit I used to have had some sort of bug in it that would make the cam sensor "disappear" to the stock ECU. This constituted a problem because the the ECU decided to kill the engine in response. This made for an interesting round of troubleshooting.

I'll drop you a PM out of pure curiosity. I'd like to look at what the 1FZ is capable of, but this is a daily driver and smog compliance and turn-key reliability are priority one for my junk.

I am really excited that someone is looking into this. I think this engine has a lot of untapped potential while still being reliable, and I think the Land Cruiser crowd is one that actually has money to pay for that, unlike other vehicles out there that are geared toward less financially stable (read: younger) followers.
 
maybe a dumb question in the middle of this hi level thread ..

What happen in the stock ECU with bigger injectors .. or bigger ( better press/flow ) fuel pump ..

I've been read about supra pump and injectors in Turboed 1FZ-FE in Puerto Rico .. just they never have a technical answer to my questions ..

Thanks !
 
SUMOTOY said:
Again, please use PM to me directly. Nothing personal, but IME with those that post 'interest' within threads, are usually the passive, not active type. I'm not looking for that, nor am I interested in crossing the vendor barrier I always self-imposed here.

Thanks

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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You posted the topic publicly so I expressed interest in it publicly. Do not distort my interest as any sort of commitment; it isn't commitment, it is interest. If you don't like those terms, sorry, stop posting this topic publicly, and wait for the flood of private messages that's sure to come ohh middle-man-messenger-but-non-vendor-non-vested-investor! :doh:
 
turbocruiser said:
You posted the topic publicly so I expressed interest in it publicly. Do not distort my interest as any sort of commitment; it isn't commitment, it is interest. If you don't like those terms, sorry, stop posting this topic publicly, and wait for the flood of private messages that's sure to come ohh middle-man-messenger-but-non-vendor-non-vested-investor!
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I am very wary of mixing forum discussions and internet, with business. I have an 80 work truck, and take time out from Audis to enjoy the passion of doing all my own work on my 80. Your second offensive post in this thread, is a great reminder to self, that I'm happy to drop this all together.

I don't distort anything you have said, I am well seasoned to this type of post. Exactly why I requested PM's. I can use up some technical favors to give the 1FZFE EFI modding serious consideration. Or, I can just go back to doing what I do in life, and just bank the favors I have earned for something more worthwhile.

Thanks for the blatent reminder my second choice has it's merits.

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
 
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