ECU Tuning options
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sorry guys the boost limit on the oe system is at leaste at 10lbs boost. that's where I have had my adjustable boost controller set since since last year. In this vid you can hear her bouncing off the rev limiter climbing snow under heavy load. luckily it was real cold out because I beat on her like this many times for over 10 secs at a go as we battled for hours trying to make it to the top of this mountain. the big 80 led the way....ultimately we were denied and had to eventually turn back. YouTube - Fun in the snow
I beat the s*** out of this blown motor constantly. only trailer her since the 1 ton build so i can beat her without worry. run 15w50 synthetic at about 1000 mile change intervals. head rebuilt a couple years ago. 3" exhaust. high flow single cat.
im talking to a guy right now about a wet NOS-that should solve any concerns about running lean. How much boost you want?
hope to see all at Surf and Turf so I can kick any 80's ass that wants to have a go
I beat the s*** out of this blown motor constantly. only trailer her since the 1 ton build so i can beat her without worry. run 15w50 synthetic at about 1000 mile change intervals. head rebuilt a couple years ago. 3" exhaust. high flow single cat.
im talking to a guy right now about a wet NOS-that should solve any concerns about running lean. How much boost you want?
hope to see all at Surf and Turf so I can kick any 80's ass that wants to have a go
A full reading of this thread, handled patiently by Christo this past winter, convinces me not many on this list know a lot about 1FZFE EFI at all.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/264449-landtank-maf-surprising-scangauge-results.html
Engines taking a lot of abuse, doesn't say anything about what the ECU can 'handle'. I beat the sh*t out of my Audis, and I know exactly what the ECU can handle, and what it can't. That's a dyno and software table thing. To LT followup below, I don't bait. I was fascinated watching Christo walk this forum through how a MAF meter works, and specifically the problems he observed with the assumptions made. It ended without consensus, it didn't change my summary conclusion that no one seemed knowledgeable enough to answer his simple questions. So, I'll turn and cough with TC's statement of what anyone 'knows'.
My .02
Scott J
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enough baiting on that subject.
EFI Tuning on the Dyno - and 80 discussion
No bait, only a lot of lectures today Rick. I'll proceed as tactfully as I can, I got an earful. Wish you were there?
A good day at the dyno today. Amazing to see what a laptop and a well run dyno facility can demonstrate. A shop corner balancing a full race GT3 in the next bay, means you are playing with the pros.
I watched skilled hands fly, typing out modified tuning tables between runs at an average of 1 every 4 minutes. I'm lucky to get 2 in an hour!
I had plenty of time to explore the 80 EFI options with a tuning guru over lunch. As some believe I am here to do business, gonna be a tough report. The first couple reamings I got, I don't even know where to put. It really belongs in the Christo thread from February.
Some basics:
First, to *ANY* MAF upgrade. Quick and ugly. Disconnect the FPR reference line with a larger MAF, expect NOX to go up as a best case scenario. MAF is lean because it's comparative voltage is low, the variable fuel injector differential pressure is adding to/masking the problem. It can "possibly operate a stock truck with crude programming, but don't for a minute under boost or at altitude!" Incredulus that anyone would consider 'Fuel Injector Differential Pressure' insignificant, it's a given constant - he couldn't think of a single exception to stock EFI or standalone. You can choose your constant (3 bar, or set value in an adjustable). Not even with *full* control of every table in an EFI program should this be considered valid. The assumption is that FI Differential Pressure is a constant. Period. He also bet that the stock 80 FPR is a 1:1 rising type, even under boost.
Second, a larger MAF will not have the same output as the stock smaller MAF. I have some graphs that can demonstrate that well. Either the scaling has to be remapped, and or you can hunt and peck injector sizing to hopefully reflect the lower value. "Of course closed loop operation is longer, the larger MAF is always at a lower output value than the stocker. If it's lean during that closed loop, you are better off in open loop sooner"
Dramatic drops in observed AFR's below 12's 9or whereever it takes the dive), means you have no fuel control, period. "Ok, it's saf-er because it's hard blowing up a motor that's rich"
After that bunch of me only presenting 'other's' opinions I moved on to the best 'overall' (not specific product) EFI options for the 80. When I gave him the TCU inputs required for trans ecu, he agreed that the best option is to just pull fuel and timing off the ecu, and leave it in place. We both figured this would benefit the OBDI trucks (finally, an advantage!) because he said many times OBDII doesn't like those controls pulled without DTC's going array.
If the connectors plugs and terminals are available, so is plug and play ability. Ho-hum 10 questions = this is a standard coil/distributor driven 6 cylinder application. Wasted spark or 6 coils are possible.
No real surprises to me at all, and many great stories shared of crazy car projects and nerdy tuning. Good to be involved and a respected opinion in the diagnostics of a low boost problem and dyno table interpretation. Interesting note of the day: The guy uses a knock sensor as a microphone and puts headphones on and listens for knock while he tunes. He claims he always can hear knock this way, way before ECU timing retard intervention.
I'm up to my eyeballs in a plug and play standalone for my turbo quattro right now. But I'm going to do some more research on this project, to see if this is really viable for my 80.
End of Report
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
No bait, only a lot of lectures today Rick. I'll proceed as tactfully as I can, I got an earful. Wish you were there?
A good day at the dyno today. Amazing to see what a laptop and a well run dyno facility can demonstrate. A shop corner balancing a full race GT3 in the next bay, means you are playing with the pros.
I watched skilled hands fly, typing out modified tuning tables between runs at an average of 1 every 4 minutes. I'm lucky to get 2 in an hour!
I had plenty of time to explore the 80 EFI options with a tuning guru over lunch. As some believe I am here to do business, gonna be a tough report. The first couple reamings I got, I don't even know where to put. It really belongs in the Christo thread from February.Some basics:
First, to *ANY* MAF upgrade. Quick and ugly. Disconnect the FPR reference line with a larger MAF, expect NOX to go up as a best case scenario. MAF is lean because it's comparative voltage is low, the variable fuel injector differential pressure is adding to/masking the problem. It can "possibly operate a stock truck with crude programming, but don't for a minute under boost or at altitude!" Incredulus that anyone would consider 'Fuel Injector Differential Pressure' insignificant, it's a given constant - he couldn't think of a single exception to stock EFI or standalone. You can choose your constant (3 bar, or set value in an adjustable). Not even with *full* control of every table in an EFI program should this be considered valid. The assumption is that FI Differential Pressure is a constant. Period. He also bet that the stock 80 FPR is a 1:1 rising type, even under boost.
Second, a larger MAF will not have the same output as the stock smaller MAF. I have some graphs that can demonstrate that well. Either the scaling has to be remapped, and or you can hunt and peck injector sizing to hopefully reflect the lower value. "Of course closed loop operation is longer, the larger MAF is always at a lower output value than the stocker. If it's lean during that closed loop, you are better off in open loop sooner"
Dramatic drops in observed AFR's below 12's 9or whereever it takes the dive), means you have no fuel control, period. "Ok, it's saf-er because it's hard blowing up a motor that's rich"
After that bunch of me only presenting 'other's' opinions I moved on to the best 'overall' (not specific product) EFI options for the 80. When I gave him the TCU inputs required for trans ecu, he agreed that the best option is to just pull fuel and timing off the ecu, and leave it in place. We both figured this would benefit the OBDI trucks (finally, an advantage!) because he said many times OBDII doesn't like those controls pulled without DTC's going array.
If the connectors plugs and terminals are available, so is plug and play ability. Ho-hum 10 questions = this is a standard coil/distributor driven 6 cylinder application. Wasted spark or 6 coils are possible.
No real surprises to me at all, and many great stories shared of crazy car projects and nerdy tuning. Good to be involved and a respected opinion in the diagnostics of a low boost problem and dyno table interpretation. Interesting note of the day: The guy uses a knock sensor as a microphone and puts headphones on and listens for knock while he tunes. He claims he always can hear knock this way, way before ECU timing retard intervention.
I'm up to my eyeballs in a plug and play standalone for my turbo quattro right now. But I'm going to do some more research on this project, to see if this is really viable for my 80.
End of Report
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
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More discussions on 80 EFI application
Conveniently for me, I managed to get some awd track time and instruction duties at one of the last event around chicago. Conveniently too, the EFI tuner was doing some at-track fine tuning for the cars that were on the dyno Friday. I was able to speak more about the 80 application.
First, since I am going after my application 1994 AFM equipped 80, the MAF equipped 80 won't get developed without someone getting intimately involved in it. The biggest issue with the MAF truck is the on board Trans ECM. I have the factory manual for the 93-94 AFM (OBDi) trucks, but no manual for the OBDII trucks.
As this guru I spoke with is quite familiar with the Megasquirt systems in general (ala the 80 app as seen on ebay), he's convinced the stock ecu connectors are available (Dan?). I spoke to him in depth about how the OBDII computer could be modified and still allow EPA interface (OBD port must be active). He indicated that if all the connectors are available (female and male), a breakout adapter cable could be built, that allows an easy removal of the fuel and timing computer. Ala EEVC IV stuff you see for Mustangs
I have no real interest in the MAF OBDII truck app myself. Anyone that PM'd me can do so again if you want to pursue this later app further. It requires good working knowlege of the EWD and possibly some MM in/out tests.
In the meantime, I've started to list the key components of the input/output stuff on my 94 ready to send off to him this week.
Cheers
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
Conveniently for me, I managed to get some awd track time and instruction duties at one of the last event around chicago. Conveniently too, the EFI tuner was doing some at-track fine tuning for the cars that were on the dyno Friday. I was able to speak more about the 80 application.
First, since I am going after my application 1994 AFM equipped 80, the MAF equipped 80 won't get developed without someone getting intimately involved in it. The biggest issue with the MAF truck is the on board Trans ECM. I have the factory manual for the 93-94 AFM (OBDi) trucks, but no manual for the OBDII trucks.
As this guru I spoke with is quite familiar with the Megasquirt systems in general (ala the 80 app as seen on ebay), he's convinced the stock ecu connectors are available (Dan?). I spoke to him in depth about how the OBDII computer could be modified and still allow EPA interface (OBD port must be active). He indicated that if all the connectors are available (female and male), a breakout adapter cable could be built, that allows an easy removal of the fuel and timing computer. Ala EEVC IV stuff you see for Mustangs
I have no real interest in the MAF OBDII truck app myself. Anyone that PM'd me can do so again if you want to pursue this later app further. It requires good working knowlege of the EWD and possibly some MM in/out tests.
In the meantime, I've started to list the key components of the input/output stuff on my 94 ready to send off to him this week.
Cheers
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
- Thread starter
- #49
Keep in mind that it's not simply about boost. It's about flow and effeciency of the turbo/sc setup that is being used. 10psi on one turbo may flow bout as much air as 20psi on another. Anyone boosting their 1FZ should keep this in mind and monitor AFR, knock & EGT closely upon their first few hundred miles to make sure they are not running past the point where it's safe on the stock ECU & fuel system.
i am running 8 psi of boost with a liquid/air intercooler. i also found a piggy back Unichip wired into the ECM. It is cut into the MAF and timing circuits. All the work was done by the previous owner.
It is an Eaton M90 with a 3" pulley(built by Cameron Concepts back in the day)
I have never ran it on a dyno, but i can tell you it makes a stock TRD SC feel weak.
I have the timing bumped just a bit(pushing the "knock" limit). It pings just a little bit at 5K rpm, but i don't have it there much.
i don't have any of the specs on the unichip and how much it is changing
I have a few pics if there is any interest.
It is an Eaton M90 with a 3" pulley(built by Cameron Concepts back in the day)
I have never ran it on a dyno, but i can tell you it makes a stock TRD SC feel weak.
I have the timing bumped just a bit(pushing the "knock" limit). It pings just a little bit at 5K rpm, but i don't have it there much.
i don't have any of the specs on the unichip and how much it is changing
I have a few pics if there is any interest.
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But math would dictate with a plugged FPR reference line you have reduced your injector flow rate by 15% at 10psi. In addition, the optimal spray pattern of the 1FZFE injector is at 3Bar, at the 2.2Bar Fuel Injector Pressure you are running in Denver at 10psi, the injector spray pattern is 'less than optimal'.
I'd be very careful driving after a inadvertent reset of LTFT.
Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
First of all your math is more than "fuzzy", second of all the FPR is connected but thanks for the misplaced and misunderstood concern.
First of all your math is more than "fuzzy", second of all the FPR is connected but thanks for the misplaced and misunderstood concern.
Haven't you realized by now that he knows everything in a blink of an eye.
Sorry to dig this out of the grave... Im on a witch hunt locally for a clean 96 or 97 FZJ that will be a build project. The goal will be to turbo and run around 500hp. Have there been any updates on the OBDII EFI tuning options? Out here in the country we do not have emissions testing, just safety so I am hoping there are some ways to go about running larger injectors, dyno tuning and maintaining the auto trans ecu functionality. Are there any standalone transmission controllers that would work in conjunction with a MS setup?
Doesn't appear to be many options... I guess the most budget freindly would be a MapECU3 or SMT8 piggyback setup to drive bigger injectors? How would one go about removing the emissions sensors within the programming?
If you are going after 500awhp, you should probably do head studs and MLS gasket. Remember you lose 30% to the drivetrain so 500awhp will be like 720hp at the crank. Not impossible on the bottom end it is stout. But I would be very concerned about the transmission, at the very least doing the transgo shift kit.
As for ECU, you can do a standalone in parallel with the TCU. I am personally running the Haltech Platinum Sport 2000, but the 1000 would be plenty. Doing a piggyback is troublesome as there are several correction factors the stock ECU fights you on.
As for ECU, you can do a standalone in parallel with the TCU. I am personally running the Haltech Platinum Sport 2000, but the 1000 would be plenty. Doing a piggyback is troublesome as there are several correction factors the stock ECU fights you on.
Thanks for the info my man. What do you allow the stock ecu to control after going to the haltech? I've got a buddy running a holley dominator ecu on his Twin turbo ls motor datsun. He recommended it for its massive number of inputs for the cost which is cheaper than many others. Did you strip your egr system? Why did you go with the haltech if I may ask?
I plan on going with some 7.5cr forged pistons. Maybe some slight head work, cams, arp or similar head studs. I'll do some more research on the motor rebuild. I also need to see who builds these transmissions. A beefed up tranny will be a must.
I plan on going with some 7.5cr forged pistons. Maybe some slight head work, cams, arp or similar head studs. I'll do some more research on the motor rebuild. I also need to see who builds these transmissions. A beefed up tranny will be a must.