Cold start and rough run on all older toys ?

[morganism]

Ok, i have started having problems now that it is finally getting cold out here in the desert, but the weird thing is my folks 2001 Corolla is having loss of power and stalling at lights problem too. We had it running great thru the summer after lots of O2 sensor problems last winter. Mine is 83 FJ60 4sp Aisin carbed and desmogged.

So the question is..

What systems are shared between these two vehicles, that are cold or altitude sensitive ?

We both daily drive between 3200 and 5200 ft. elevation, and temps usually 60s to 90s till winter, then 30s to 70s. (yeah, were suffering).

All i can think of is cold start injector, and the HAC. Do you think the HAC could get so in-flexible that it will lock open or closed ? we have checked CS injector jet, and voltage seems ok on both.

Other ideas welcome.

 

[Seth S]

Cant comment one what is common on older toyotas but I can say that it was 17 degrees Fahrenheit today when I started my FJ60 to warm it up. I have full choke on and I pump the pedal 4 times and crank...nothing, four more pumps and crank...nothing....four more and I get my first stumble. I repeat this maybe 4 more times before I have my first spin up to 1000 rpm which quickly results in a stall....takes a while for me to get it up and running so that I can feather the throttle and get enough heat into it so it will idle without stalling...once that happens and it holds idle I am good. I have a feeling this is not how it is supposed to be

 

[mwebfj60]

Maybe a bad batch of gas? My 60 never liked Colorado's Winter blend.

 

[Dixon Santana]

The corolla issues I cant provide feedback on. On the 60 there are some things I noticed helped cold starts dramatically.Have you had the carb looked at? After I rebuilt my carb first thing I noticed was how much easier it was to start. Manifold leaks if you have any come to mind also. When I bought my 60 it leaked so bad that it would take me almost 30 minutes to get it started. Choke cable is another item that made a big difference, just replaced two days ago and as it turns out my old choke cable was not allowing the choke to fully engage. Here in West Texas the temps in the morning have gotten down to the mid 20s some mornings, all I do to start my 60 is pump the pedal four times, pull the choke out all the way and turn the key and shes running.

 

[mattressking]

Hard to say without having already tested each vacuum system found in the Emissions Manual.

Between the 01 Corolla and Fj60, the only items truly shared is that they are fundementally the same...a big vacuum pump. The corolla relies mainly on electrical signals and inputs from the MAF, Pre-Cat O2, Coolant Temp, Throttle Position sensors for running. Very few vacuum driven items in that vehicle and of course, not carburated so the A/F mixture is adjusted per the inputs above in the ECU.

Now of course there is possibility of bad gas, though I wouldn't suspect that usually.

In order to get the corolla running smooth, find someone with Techstream and plug it into the Corolla...read soft codes (if any). OTC code readers are OK but not IDEAL.

For the 60, it's time to break out the emissions manual. Check EVERY system for functionality. My truck when I first purchased took full choke and 6-8 pumps when california cold (50-60) to start. Now it takes full choke and 1 pump and she fires without hesitation. Haven't really had the opportunity to get into below freezing much until winter hits in the mountains and I head out to snowboard, I assume 2-3 pumps at most.

You need to look at the engine as a whole for how healthy it is, so that means you need to start high-level. Compression, Timing, Vacuum, Valve Adjustment.

Make sure your valve adjustment is solid and in spec, then do a compression test. If that passes move to Vacuum and get a good understanding of your current vacuum measurement and idle speed. Then of course, once you have a good vacuum reading (15-22inHG) depending on altitude, you can then check timing, make adjustments and continue fine tune.

Without code readers and electrical inputs, you have to do this the old fashioned way and methodically research how the engine is running, which is very easy once you grasp each system.

EDIT: Cold start injector, did you say you tested it on the 60? If so, what did you actually check? That does not exist on a 60.

 

[jakerudy]

I've had problems with just about every gas engine when using regular (10% or so ethanol) so I've gone to premium only in gas engines as around here it has no ethanol in it. Don't know what you've got in your area. Problems I've had with ethanol are:

'89 Toyota pickup would not start in cold weather
Wife's 2005 Subaru ruined O2 sensors
Honda 4-wheeler not starting again in cold weather
Stihl chain saws, weed eaters, JD generator, and other small engines gumming the carbs and degrading the fuel lines.

Maybe try premium gas and I've had some luck using Seafoam to clear the system. My experience is that ethanol added to gas is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[3_puppies]

cold start injector on a carb'd engine???

could be the oxygenated winter gas causing issues? it is supposed to help cut down on emissions so there are less bad air days.

 

[gregnash]

Winter gas is not just oxygenated but also has things in it that are added to the mixture to make combustion happen easier (ethanol) and other detergents and what not. This causes havoc on old systems like the 60 and I would imagine that eventually will catch up with newer vehicles.

 

[morganism]

Yeah, no HAC vac valve in Corolla. I disconnected both O2 sensors last winter when this happened. In cold weather, driving downhill, engine braking, it goes rich, and fouls em. Ran great without them all spring, summer, and fall, till last week, when it hit freezing (same mileage). Usually Chevron gas, so likely not injectors. Codes are all O2 sensor, cuz they are disconnected. She took it to the dealer 3 years ago, and they charged her 1k, kept iit 4 days, and didn't fix it. Don't use Tim Toy in Prescott, and especially don't give them an email address. Spam o Matic. I even tried to go to regional, never got any satisfaction.

Everything else on system looks good, and this car goes up steep grades all the time, so prob not a bubble on sensors.

Pulled batt cable, turn key on-off a few times to try and clear codes, (i don't know jumpers on that car). Still idling rough. Took it out for road test, dogging. Hit the A/C on to idle up, and that worked. Hit cruise control on/off, and voila, even out, mostly. It will take 3-4 days for the car to "learn" operation while back in "default" mode.

Hopefully this will hold her till next year.

Cruiser hard start. Checked HAC at low alt, and the dist vac line blew clear thru out HAC. Will check at altitude this wknd. Pulled ignitor off body, cleaned and greased body contacts for ground.

Had a no start a month ago, and another 2 days ago. Had to pull starter, changed solonoid contacts, and they are fine.
Seems like i have a "flat" gear tooths on the trans ring gear, and if starter turns it over, but doesn't get it to start, it will settle at that point, and i have to tip it out to get it onto another tooth. Battery was 12.5 both times, even tho all dash lights come on, and no solonoid click.

This truck starts all summer with 1 pump, and crank starter on 2nd pump. In winter, it's typically one pump, full choke and starts. If that doesn't work immediately, then i go to half choke, no pump, and start. Now if that doesn't work, i get the starter lock. Starter fluid is my friend, and was usually step 3.

I'm pretty sure now that this is the starting circuit (at key) back to the ignitor, down to solenoid wiring. Best i can figure after staring at wiring all afternoon, is that i had the blower motor on the heater, and it was drawing at start, and killing my current. Gonna have to rewire. I did see somewhere here that some one did this with the old ford relay, and cut the wire in the harness, to get around the full circuit draw.

Or remember to turn my heater off before i try to start all winter.

 

[gregnash]

So you are able to get your truck to fire on a single pump of the pedal + full choke when it is cold? When you say cold how cold are you talking.???? Ultimately, the one thing that it does not seem you have confirmed is whether or not the fuel bowl has fuel in it. This could be a slight indication that your fuel pump is either dying or just too cold to want to operate.

My normal procedure now, when it is 15* out in the morning...
- turn key to RUN
- pump gas pedal five times
- pull choke full out
- turn key to START
Normally she will fire.. on really cold mornings I may have to repeat this process a time or two.

 

[morganism]

Nope, freezing last night. 1 pump w choke full on, started right away.

Problem is, it is like battery is low, tho it is holding at 12.5 v, and i have had a Battery Minder on it last 3 months, it conditions the batt, and keeps it from loading up with lead sulfates.

But it barely turns over, (only when cold, and i have had the heater on) I have the blower on #1 at all times. . I am thinking there must be switch on the "heat to cold" slider ? that kicks on the heater resistor, and draws more current, and that competes with the batt, to key, to ignitor, to starter solenoid circuit. Never seen that a switch in there tho, gonna have to clean the dust bunnies off the heater resistor, and clean out the blower box, tho i have kept the intakes clean since the first time i opened it, after clearing the firewall, after looking at the wiper linkage. (which still isn't fixed)

 

[mwebfj60]

When you desmogged, did you keep the Choke opener? The reason I ask is if you removed the BVSV for it and have it hooked to a vacuum source, it will kick the choke off. Doesn't have anything to do with your starter issues but would effect cold running.

 

[4Cruisers]

Cruiser hard start. Checked HAC at low alt, and the dist vac line blew clear thru out HAC. Will check at altitude this wknd.

For HAC, high altitude is >3,930 feet, so not really that "high". As long as your house isn't down near Centerville or Clarkdale your driveway would be a good place to check out the HAC system. Good post for more details on the HAC system:

Aisan HAC

 

[morganism]

For HAC, high altitude is >3,930 feet, so not really that "high". As long as your house isn't down near Centerville or Clarkdale your driveway would be a good place to check out the HAC system. Good post for more details on the HAC system:

Aisan HAC

Yeah, but Jerome is 5200'... So it kicks in everytime you drive up the hill, supposedly.

 

[4Cruisers]

Yeah, but Jerome is 5200'... So it kicks in everytime you drive up the hill, supposedly.

That's true. Best to check it out and confirm the "supposedly" part.

 

[Seth S]

Ok so I am at about 700' elevation and it is currently 5 degrees F. I just started my 60...10 pumps of the pedal and then pulled on full choke. It started right up and then stalled. Did this about 5 or 6 times then was able to feather the throttle and get enough warmth going for it to maintain an idle. Now letting it come up to temp. I am not driving it in the winter but like to start it regularly to circulate fluids and when the roads are dry and no sign of salt I take it down the road 10 miles or so.

 

[gregnash]

What about the cold cranking amps of the battery? How old is it? It could be that while it is hold 12v it may not have enough to crank over when it is truly that cold.

Also you say "freezing last night" but what does that mean temp wise? Was it 32* or slightly lower or did it dip way down low like my area where it dropped to a low of 11.

 

[morganism]

AZ, so only just below freezing.

If batt was going, it wouldn't hold 12.5v, while cranking , and then locking up. seems like a AZ batt gets cooked in the summer, not the winter.
775 cca batt, and no prob with reg stereo, fan on low , starting the rest o the year.

Gonna start another thread, with questions on heater resistor and heater selector switch questions.

 

[gregnash]

Huh interesting. See this morning for me was a little warmer at all of 20*. She turned over easily with one go through of normal process. There definitely has to be something else going on with your heater being on, maybe shoot @OSS a message as he is the man with all the schematics and seems to be able to troubleshoot stuff like this like no-ones business.

 

[morganism]

corolla prob solved by disconnect batt for 10 mins, and turning key on/off multiple times to drain computer capacitor. then had her downshift on hard grades w curves. Both 02 sensors disconnected. Car comp went back to default mode the 2nd day, and is running fine again.

Had another no-start Cruiser morning yesterday. loosened starter, gave it key, no click/no turn. Pulled starter again, checked the newly replaced contacts and plunger, both fine. Pulled armature side cover, blasted with carb cleaner, and re-greased top bearing. Armature pretty clean contact, and brushes at 1/3 gone. Gonna have to replace that soon. Didn't pull all out, will save that for when have spare/replaced. No start,no click, no turn.

Ran coil and igniter tests, battery at 12.5 solid, and bout half an ohm high on low circuit 1.0, secondary fine at 13.5k. Ordered coil anyway. Pulled igniter apart, and board appears to be the epoxied in model, no good test. Remembered our dist guys warnings about grounds, so added a separate ground wire, igniter to fender, near hood line. truck started first try. Picked up a volt on coil neg to igniter body test.

Am assuming it is now the igniter heat compound has been thermo-cycled and bounced loose, and may be overheating after first crank and fail.

anyone know how to get into an epoxied igniter case, or should i just do the GM igniter hack and a push button start button, and call it good.?

Seems like ignitor circuit is working, or else it wouldn't be able to boost the pick-up signal, and truck wouldn't be running so well otherwise.