Building a new house and shop (7 Viewers)

[1911]

The plug-on neutral panels are a relatively new thing. To me, the main advantage is that it is a quicker, more straightforward install in that you don't have to separately run the pigtails for any GFCI and AFCI breakers in the panel.

I'd be inclined to say that they're going to perform as well as a conventional breaker. The conventional breaker "plugs on" to the hot bus and the plug-on neutral just adds a "plug on" to the neutral bus as well instead of requiring you to connect the pigtail to the neutral bus separately (screwing the pigtail to the neutral bus).

The main thing is that with today's code requirements for GFCI and AFCI protection, you're connecting more GFCI and/or AFCI breakers to the neutral bus. My house and workshop don't have any AFCI protection because they predate the code requirements for AFCI. I've been here for 30 years and the house has been here since about 1925 without issues, so I haven't gone to the trouble to update to AFCI protection. I have put in GFCI protection where needed by code (at the time) in the workshop and updated the house with GFCI to bath, kitchen, and exterior.

Here's my workshop panel and you can see four GFCI breakers in the center left of the panel with their pigtails. Those are for 15A circuits on the ground floor and at the time GFCI was only required for "readily accessible" receptacles in a garage where the floor was at or below grade. Since the 2008 NEC, ALL garage 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-amp receptacles where the floor is at or below grade are required to be GFCI protected.

This is a SquareD QO panel:
View attachment 3089656

There is an argument that you can just put a GFCI receptacle as the first one in a circuit and all receptacles downstream from it are also protected and there is no need to use GFCI breakers, which saves you the cost of a GFCI breaker (GFCI receptacle = about $20; GFCI breaker = about $45). I chose to use GFCI breakers in my workshop because then everything was centrally located instead of having to remember where the GFCI receptacles are located throughout the shop - or that the receptacle ends up being behind something that has to be moved when it is tripped. Also, the QO panel has indicators that show when a breaker is tripped - so it is really easy to see which one needs attention. This means I can send someone else to the panel and they can easily find the tripped breaker too.

The red indicator shows up in the little window when it is tripped:
View attachment 3089666

But for residential, it makes more sense to have a GFCI receptacle in the kitchen and the bath where it will save a trip to the breaker panel to reset a GFCI breaker.

As for what type of breakers you need and where you need them, much of it depends on the codes adopted by your State and local municipality. Looking at things, although Texas adopted the 2020 NEC effective as of 11/1/2020, the Texas Occupations Code § 1305.201 provides municipalities the authority to make local amendments to the NEC. So you'd have to check to see what is required locally for you. You'll need the proper GFCI and AFCI circuits as required by your local code to pass your electrical inspection. As for downsides, I'll address those independently.

GFCI's make sense in wet (or potentially wet) locations. They've been required on exterior receptacles, bathrooms, and garages (for garages - readily accessible receptacles with some exceptions) since the 1970s. The 1980s added kitchens (within six feet of a sink) and unfinished basements to the list. The 1990s added crawlspaces and wet bars. The 2000s added all kitchen countertop receptacles, the service to a dishwasher, and laundries as well as pretty much eliminating any exceptions for garages - including ceiling receptacles and those for garage door openers. There are a bunch of other specific requirements for swimming pools, hot tubs, boathouses, and other "wet" areas, but that is another discussion.

The one downside for me is the requirement for ALL receptacles in basements and garages to be GFCI when you have something like a chest freezer or refrigerator there. Only countertop receptacles are required to be GFCI, so the kitchen refrigerator isn't required to be on a GFCI. If it trips and you don't notice it, you can end up losing $$$ in groceries. Other than that, a tripped GFCI is mostly just a nuisance but could similarly be an issue for anything you depend on to have constant power - security systems or a sump pump, for example - that may be in a "wet" location like an unfinished basement or garage. If an item is hard wired it doesn't need to be GFCI protected, which is the easy way to get around GFCI protection for a sump pump and still meet code.

AFCIs started out being required for bedroom receptacles in 2002 (by the 1999 NEC). The 2002 NEC upped that to ALL connections in bedrooms (lighting, ceiling fans, wired smoke alarm, etc). In 2008 the NEC upped that to also include "family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas." So, pretty much everything except those locations where a GFCI is required. They also required the updated combination AFCI (CAFCI). The original AFCI detected parallel arcing (hot-to-neutral or an arc to ground). The CAFCI detects parallel as well as series (between a small gap or frayed area in the same wire) arcing. For this discussion, I'm using AFCI as a general term to include both AFCI and CAFCI (whichever one is required) unless specifically relating to one or the other.

As for downsides to AFCIs, the one issue I hear a lot of is that AFCI breakers (or receptacles) will trip with motor loads - vacuums, garage door openers, power tools, and such. If you think about it, you're naturally going to get an arc in a motor - which AFCI will likely detect and CAFCI will certainly detect. I see people say it is mostly an issue with loads over 5A, but that is pretty low if you're a DIY type person and apt to use power tools throughout the house - not to mention vacuums. Looking at internet discussions, of course you have the people who say they've never had an issue on one side and on the other side are the ones who have swapped out all their AFCIs and curse them loudly because of constant problems. Similar to my comments about GFCI protection of items needing constant power, having a AFCI trip and not noticing it can obviously cause you issues. It's something you'll have to decide for yourself - protect from the chance of an electrical fire or run the risk of not having constant power to something if the protection trips.

This is probably a lot more than you wanted to know, but I hope it answers your questions. I'll also say that I'm not a licensed electrician, so I may have missed some things or not explained them exactly correctly.

Thanks, very helpful!

I did have a problem in my last house with the GFCI outlets in the garage. We had a second fridge out there, and the outlet kept tripping, thus losing power to the fridge unexpectedly. I finally just replaced it with a regular non-protected outlet.

There are no required electrical inspections at all here (fairly common in rural Texas counties), so I can do whatever I want, but of course I want to be safe. We went to a church that burned to the ground from an arc fault inside a wall; the fire burned undetected until it reached the attic, after which it was too large to put out. But most of my walls are concrete (though the conduits are PVC), and so a fire from an arc fault would not likely be catastrophic or result in loss of life. I will have some interior walls with wiring in them, so I could put AFCI breakers in for those circuits.

Sounds like the Square D plug-on neutral panel may be the way to go. It's well-rated on the interwebs.

Thanks again!

 

[PAToyota]

I've never really delved in-depth to the arc-fault situation. I will say that I've never been a fan of the push in connections on the back of receptacles and switches. I prefer to use the screw terminals - and make sure they're done properly and tight. I've seen signs of arcing on the push in connections when I've removed receptacles and switches. I've also seen compromised wiring from all sorts of things - from rodents to people screwing things into a wall or cutting into it.

Electrical fires are a thing, but I can't tell you percentages and ultimate causes. Are AFCI circuits a "fix" for other issues that could be solved by care and attention? I'm not sure.

As for constant power to GFCI/AFCI circuits, there are options for power loss alarms: Amazon.com : power failure alarm - https://www.amazon.com/power-failure-alarm/s?k=power+failure+alarm

There are "smart" versions that will send an alert to your phone too as well as an audible alarm.

My other recommendation for a panel is to get the big one - typically 40+ spaces. Not only for the possibility of future expansion, but also to divide things up logically. You can put 8 to 10 (or more) receptacles on a circuit, but I always hate those circuits that randomly cover the living room, hallway, stair landing, and den sort of things. Or circuits for lighting and receptacles - I'd prefer the lights to stay on if I trip a breaker. Also, in the workshop, I alternated receptacles between two circuits and put them in every four feet so that if I do trip a breaker I can plug into the next outlet and finish what I'm doing before going to reset the breaker.

 

[1911]

I've never really delved in-depth to the arc-fault situation. I will say that I've never been a fan of the push in connections on the back of receptacles and switches. I prefer to use the screw terminals - and make sure they're done properly and tight. I've seen signs of arcing on the push in connections when I've removed receptacles and switches. I've also seen compromised wiring from all sorts of things - from rodents to people screwing things into a wall or cutting into it.

Electrical fires are a thing, but I can't tell you percentages and ultimate causes. Are AFCI circuits a "fix" for other issues that could be solved by care and attention? I'm not sure.

As for constant power to GFCI/AFCI circuits, there are options for power loss alarms: Amazon.com : power failure alarm - https://www.amazon.com/power-failure-alarm/s?k=power+failure+alarm

There are "smart" versions that will send an alert to your phone too as well as an audible alarm.

My other recommendation for a panel is to get the big one - typically 40+ spaces. Not only for the possibility of future expansion, but also to divide things up logically. You can put 8 to 10 (or more) receptacles on a circuit, but I always hate those circuits that randomly cover the living room, hallway, stair landing, and den sort of things. Or circuits for lighting and receptacles - I'd prefer the lights to stay on if I trip a breaker. Also, in the workshop, I alternated receptacles between two circuits and put them in every four feet so that if I do trip a breaker I can plug into the next outlet and finish what I'm doing before going to reset the breaker.

Good to know, thanks.

I'm definitely going with a big panel; thought the same thing.

 

[1911]

The garage doors and installers finally came yesterday. They were supposed to be here at 10:00 am, arrived at 3:00 pm, and didn't bring any concrete anchors. Since I had previously put up 2x6 boards for the purpose, they were able to put up two of the three sets of rails and doors before quitting time. Hopefully they will do the rest on Monday.

The doors are dark brown and kind of hard to see in the photo, but here's the two that are up. They're foam insulated.

 

[Michael B]

Nice looking doors!

 

[Azca]

Thanks, very helpful!

I did have a problem in my last house with the GFCI outlets in the garage. We had a second fridge out there, and the outlet kept tripping, thus losing power to the fridge unexpectedly. I finally just replaced it with a regular non-protected outlet.

There are no required electrical inspections at all here (fairly common in rural Texas counties), so I can do whatever I want, but of course I want to be safe. We went to a church that burned to the ground from an arc fault inside a wall; the fire burned undetected until it reached the attic, after which it was too large to put out. But most of my walls are concrete (though the conduits are PVC), and so a fire from an arc fault would not likely be catastrophic or result in loss of life. I will have some interior walls with wiring in them, so I could put AFCI breakers in for those circuits.

Sounds like the Square D plug-on neutral panel may be the way to go. It's well-rated on the interwebs.

Thanks again!

The GFCI was working. The problem lies with leakage current. Every cord connected appliance, such as a refrigerator, has a permissible amount of leakage current permitted by UL. Each appliance will not have sufficient leakage current to trip the 4-6 milliamp setting of a class A GFCI device. However, when multiple appliances are connected to a circuit, the total leakage current of all devices can often exceed the rating of the GFCI.. The GFCI see more than it's permissible rating and reacts opening a circuit. This is a quite common problem and rarely is it a faulty GFCI device.

You can take off the GFCI protecting the entire branch circuit and provide individual GFCI devices at the trouble spots and eliminate the nuisance tripping. That said, if the GFCI continues to trip, the appliance is the problem and should be repaired or replaced.

GFCI and AFCI devices are critical elements that significantly increase safety from shock and fire in the home.

 

[Azca]

I've never really delved in-depth to the arc-fault situation. I will say that I've never been a fan of the push in connections on the back of receptacles and switches. I prefer to use the screw terminals - and make sure they're done properly and tight. I've seen signs of arcing on the push in connections when I've removed receptacles and switches. I've also seen compromised wiring from all sorts of things - from rodents to people screwing things into a wall or cutting into it.

Electrical fires are a thing, but I can't tell you percentages and ultimate causes. Are AFCI circuits a "fix" for other issues that could be solved by care and attention? I'm not sure.

As for constant power to GFCI/AFCI circuits, there are options for power loss alarms: Amazon.com : power failure alarm - https://www.amazon.com/power-failure-alarm/s?k=power+failure+alarm

There are "smart" versions that will send an alert to your phone too as well as an audible alarm.

My other recommendation for a panel is to get the big one - typically 40+ spaces. Not only for the possibility of future expansion, but also to divide things up logically. You can put 8 to 10 (or more) receptacles on a circuit, but I always hate those circuits that randomly cover the living room, hallway, stair landing, and den sort of things. Or circuits for lighting and receptacles - I'd prefer the lights to stay on if I trip a breaker. Also, in the workshop, I alternated receptacles between two circuits and put them in every four feet so that if I do trip a breaker I can plug into the next outlet and finish what I'm doing before going to reset the breaker.

AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters) are an awesome piece of technology. They will significantly cut down on the number of electrical fires. They can sense faulty extension cords (responsible for approximately 60% of residential electrical fires). They work by looking for an arc signature that is not caused by turning on lights or by motors starting. An older, but excellent video on the subject can be seen here:

Personally, I would install AFCI devices on every circuit in a home.

For full disclosure, I have been providing seminars and classes on the use and application of the National Electrical Code for almost 30 years. I used to be an electrical inspector and plans examiner for two very large cities and now have an electrical engineering firm.

 

[Azca]

The meter base and disconnect are all wired up and ready for the meter, and to be hooked up to the house.

View attachment 3016691

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I'm pretty pleased with myself for all I've learned about single-phase AC power, and to be able to do all this myself. I guess I'll see if the power co-op approves or not when they come to set the meter. That might be a while, because I've got to put up an interior wall for the main circuit panel in the house, pull cables from there to the disconnect, and trench for conduit before I'll need the meter.

Looks good, as an FYI, the bare #6 between the meter socket and main breaker is not needed, the neutral will perform the same function.

 

[Azca]

Slow progress; I'm trying to do a little bit each day. Still waiting on the garage doors installation; the guy is having trouble keeping employees between Covid and the general building boom.

Today I bought $1,300 worth of 4/0 URD cable, #6 copper THHN, and Schedule 40 and 80 conduit to bury it in. As soon as the garage doors are in I will rent a trencher and run the URD cable and the #6 copper from the 200-amp disconnect into the house for the main service panel.

I did redo the grounding in the meter base to resolve the parallel grounding path you guys mentioned. I disconnected to ground path from the meter base neutral buss, and connected it instead to a bonded bushing, so that the enclosure is grounded, since the flexible conduit connecting the meter base to the OCPD enclosure is non-conducting. Here's what it looks like now:

View attachment 3076259


View attachment 3076260

You will hate me. That should be a #4 if those are 3/0 copper or a #2 if 4/0. That ground, between the meter and main is called a supply side bonding jumper and is to be sized per NEC 250.102(C)(1). Also, terminate it at the meter base, not the main. You can use a neutral to ground equipment up to, but not after, the main.

 

[1911]

Thanks @Azca , all good info.

 

[PAToyota]

AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters) are an awesome piece of technology. They will significantly cut down on the number of electrical fires.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
- Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut

As a registered Architect, I agree with you on a professional level and would advise my clients the same. However, I see a lot of issues with them in practice - particularly when you get out of the "ordinary" homeowner situations. Larger motors - such as in home workshops or for DIY-minded individuals - do seem to cause issues with them. At that point you have to take on a higher level of personal responsibility that your equipment (and extension cords) are in good condition if you choose not to use an AFCI in a situation.

Same with a GFCI. I have my chest freezer on a dedicated non-GFCI circuit. I just have to make sure everything there is in good working order and if the basement floor should flood, I have to be aware of the chest freezer. Still, someone else in my house may not know about that and it could become a potential liability.

 

[PIP]

As a registered Architect, I agree with you on a professional level and would advise my clients the same. However, I see a lot of issues with them in practice - particularly when you get out of the "ordinary" homeowner situations. Larger motors - such as in home workshops or for DIY-minded individuals - do seem to cause issues with them. At that point you have to take on a higher level of personal responsibility that your equipment (and extension cords) are in good condition if you choose not to use an AFCI in a situation.

Same with a GFCI. I have my chest freezer on a dedicated non-GFCI circuit. I just have to make sure everything there is in good working order and if the basement floor should flood, I have to be aware of the chest freezer. Still, someone else in my house may not know about that and it could become a potential liability.

I resemble those remarks! I run motors up to 65KW (80 HP) from a 400 amp single phase service/45KVA pole transformer. I have went through a lot to make that work reliably and no "smart" breaker or GFCI is compatible. My setup can feed 240V 3 phase @ 100 amps continuous, 250 amps momentarily, and draws almost 200 amps single phase doing it. I have found good old fuses are 100% reliable. They blow when something is wrong and they work 100% when they are supposed to. Fuses also operate well close to their nameplate ratings over time. If you operate circuit breakers near their ratings they degrade quickly and become a nuisance or a fire hazard.

 

[PAToyota]

Even outside craziness like that I've seen issues with single phase 120V having issues with GFCI and AFCI breakers and receptacles.

Mind you, I have a C320 (400A) service to my property and 100A, 60A, and 40A circuits to deal with. Like you, I went through a certain effort to get there.

 

[Azca]

As a registered Architect, I agree with you on a professional level and would advise my clients the same. However, I see a lot of issues with them in practice - particularly when you get out of the "ordinary" homeowner situations. Larger motors - such as in home workshops or for DIY-minded individuals - do seem to cause issues with them. At that point you have to take on a higher level of personal responsibility that your equipment (and extension cords) are in good condition if you choose not to use an AFCI in a situation.

Same with a GFCI. I have my chest freezer on a dedicated non-GFCI circuit. I just have to make sure everything there is in good working order and if the basement floor should flood, I have to be aware of the chest freezer. Still, someone else in my house may not know about that and it could become a potential liability.

Also have seen issues before. Rarely is it the AFCI or GFCI, in fact after speaking with many electrical companies we serve who have service departments, after they have been educated on what precisely to look for on nuisance tripping, I have had only one reported device failure in at least the last 5 years. Typically they will "switch out" the suspect device first, to eliminate the easiest component. If it continues to trip, then they need to dig a little deeper.

Typical nuisance tripping of GFCIs is too many appliances on the same circuit. Easily solved by either limiting the number of appliances or, by deleting the GFCI breaker and installing multiple GFCI receptacles in the area(s) impacted. Once done, that leaves the appliances as the potential issues. They have found a number of appliances that fail from toasters to refrigerators and freezers. Unfortunately diagnosing the problem on the appliances are on the spendy side and replacement is just as costly when we are looking at big ticket items. However, if the device is still tripping, you have a potentially very serious issue and the appliance should be taken out of service.

In the 2020 NEC, as an example, dryers, ranges and exterior AC units are now required to have GFCI devices. This is due to a number of electrocutions, all children. One child simply climbed into a dryer to play hide and seek and was electrocuted. Another little girl went to retrieve her puppy from behind a dryer and was electrocuted; when the child's father tried to pull her out, he too was shocked. All of these and more would have been prevented by a properly installed device.

On AFCI, it can be more difficult to address. On two issues I know of, the electrical contractor (and a good one at that) had to run new conductors and bypass portions of the two circuits (two different homes) to get the AFCI to hold. They suspected a nail or staple in the circuit but, did not track it down to a specific cause as they would have had to remove a significant amount of finish materials to verify. The bottom line with an AFCI is that if it is tripping, you have a problem! Do not change it out for a standard device and cross your fingers, you are putting families in danger by doing so. Especially as the systems age.

Can they be a pain for clients, yes. I would rather deal with the pain in the butt than make a suggestion that causes a fire or worse.

 

[Azca]

I resemble those remarks! I run motors up to 65KW (80 HP) from a 400 amp single phase service/45KVA pole transformer. I have went through a lot to make that work reliably and no "smart" breaker or GFCI is compatible. My setup can feed 240V 3 phase @ 100 amps continuous, 250 amps momentarily, and draws almost 200 amps single phase doing it. I have found good old fuses are 100% reliable. They blow when something is wrong and they work 100% when they are supposed to. Fuses also operate well close to their nameplate ratings over time. If you operate circuit breakers near their ratings they degrade quickly and become a nuisance or a fire hazard.

At 80hp, single phase, that motor should be hardwired and not cord and plug connected. No receptacle, no GFCI required. Additionally, as the circuit would exceed 100 amperes 3Ø, GFCI protection is not required.

An installation such as this falls well outside of normal installations and is typically seen in commercial or industrial installations where other regulations may apply from OSHA or NFPA 70B for maintaining electrical equipment. So, this specific example should not be used as a litmus test for the elimination of safety devices.

As a typical guy, I too have done things that are, shall we say, not the smartest thing to do. In fact, down right stupid. When I have done those things, I have done them full well knowing that it was very dangerous (such as serving a panel that was energized in the basement of a highrise under construction standing in water that was above my ankles. And yes, there was an event while I worked on it.) The bad part is that you place others in danger even when doing this. People want to help others and when electricity is involved, you immediately place those people in danger as well. So it does not necessarily limit the danger to the person who created the issue. Further, I always remove, replace or de-energize what I was working on.

On the above you may be equating nuisance tripping due to start up current. Different world. A circuit breaker can be 250% of the tabular value rating of the motor listed in the NEC. A fuse 175%. If using an RK-5 fuse, you can get much closer to the rating as the current liming properties of the fuse were designed with motors in mind. Breakers and current limiting fuses are inverse time overcurrent protective devices. In other words, the greater the current, the more quickly the device will function. Motors also require overload protection that rarely can be provided by these devices, they typically will need overloads incorporated into another device and are typically set at no more than 115% of the motor's nameplate FLA (not tabular value) after accounting for such things as environment and elevation.

When working on larger motors, which is fun, a number of items must be properly addressed to provide a system that functions as intended and yet, remains safe.

 

[Azca]

Even outside craziness like that I've seen issues with single phase 120V having issues with GFCI and AFCI breakers and receptacles.

Mind you, I have a C320 (400A) service to my property and 100A, 60A, and 40A circuits to deal with. Like you, I went through a certain effort to get there.

Electricity is scary stuff and has a mind of its own. About 30 years ago, as an example, a little girl in Florida was electrocuted while walking through her lawn. There was dew on the grass that morning and the cause of the electrocution was traced to an extension cord that did not have GFCI protection. There was a nick in the cord about 70 feet from where she fell. I can go on an on about the events that have caused changes in the NEC. One of the tenants of the code making body is that they are reactive, there has to be a cause or reason for them to adopt a change. An I want or I think it is safer, is rarely accepted as change.

I have been involved with investigation of fatalities, fires and electrical shocks. I work with and co-present seminars with others who are expert witnesses from such organizations as NFPA (the NEC is actually NFPA 70) and UL and testify regularly on the misapplication of the codes where there is a loss. Don't trust this stuff or think that you are smarter than it is, electricity is a relentless, unmerciful and an efficient destroyer of all we care about when not well controlled...

 

[PAToyota]

About 30 years ago, as an example, a little girl in Florida was electrocuted while walking through her lawn. There was dew on the grass that morning and the cause of the electrocution was traced to an extension cord that did not have GFCI protection. There was a nick in the cord about 70 feet from where she fell.

I do have a healthy respect for electricity and also a healthy respect for the codes, but electrocution across a dew wet lawn from 70 feet away?

 

[Azca]

I do have a healthy respect for electricity and also a healthy respect for the codes, but electrocution across a dew wet lawn from 70 feet away?

Yes, well documented. There was an article published by the International Association of Electrical Inspectors (IAEI) on it about 25 years ago now. Remember, it does not take a lot of amperage to die from an electrocution. Voltage only helps to "push" the current through the skin. Duration is also a factor, longer shock, lower current required to be fatal. The worst shock I ever had was off 120 volts. I was well grounded leaning against a stainless steel sink when an energized conductor touched my elbow. The only reason I lived was because the tool I was working with managed to cut through the flexible conduit I was trimming that contained the wire. (we were pulling wire and the idiot I was working with decided to terminate the circuit in a breaker and energize it. I have no idea what he was thinking.) After being released, I jumped back and collapsed on the floor, all my muscles contracted and I lay in a fetal position unable to breath. After what seemed to be an eternity, my muscles relaxed and could breathe again.

The amount of current required to cause a fatality depends on a number of factors, body size, age, condition of the skin, path of current through the body etc. A young girl (I think she was 9 IIRC) is obviously a smaller person, thin skin and usually pretty soft and supple. The electricity would have a much easier time traveling though her body than a man, especially if wearing shoes. In any case, the amount of and the effects can be seen below (slides from one of the seminars I present). This is a general scale and what should be noted is the "let go" voltage. If you can't get away from the shock, it is only a matter of time before it becomes fatal. 10 milliamps is nothing.

Voltage helps, the higher the voltage (to a point) the easier it is to cause current to flow through the body. 12, 120, 240, 277, 480 and so on all can puch sufficient current through the body to be fatal, depending on where and how the person is situated. We all work with 12 volt systems and usually don't notice a thing. I have received two pretty good shocks from low voltage systems as well. One from a battery when I contacted the positive terminal on the underside of my arm near the armpit, I did dance a bit after that. The other was off a telephone board. I believe that shock was worse than a 277V shock I received a number of years later that I was fortunate to be not well grounded. (both are long, but funny, stories).

I can go on an on with this but I think you can see where I am going. Protection of electrical systems has many phases and concepts that, when applied properly, provide for a very safe installation. Circuit breakers, fuses, GFP, AFCI and GFCI devices are there for when the primary protection systems fail. Most of these devices, in part, depend on proper grounding of systems and facilities to safely operate. If we do not properly install, maintain and test these systems, we are just asking for trouble.

 

[PIP]

At 80hp, single phase, that motor should be hardwired and not cord and plug connected. No receptacle, no GFCI required. Additionally, as the circuit would exceed 100 amperes 3Ø, GFCI protection is not required.

I didn't mean to be vague, just didn't want to write a book. I power heavy industrial CNC machinery. Fanuc alpha series and newer drives. The machine tool builders configure their machines for maximum productivity which often means I have to buy the specific drive manuals and do deep dives to determine how to employ global current limiting to work within my power limitations.

I run Square D I-line busway to feed pixies to my machines and I do believe you are correct on the fuse type that system employs.

 

[Azca]

I didn't mean to be vague, just didn't want to write a book. I power heavy industrial CNC machinery. Fanuc alpha series and newer drives. The machine tool builders configure their machines for maximum productivity which often means I have to buy the specific drive manuals and do deep dives to determine how to employ global current limiting to work within my power limitations.

I run Square D I-line busway to feed pixies to my machines and I do believe you are correct on the fuse type that system employs.

Awesome! Large industrial machinery is a specialty in an of itself. My hat is off to the people that can design, work and service this equipment. I just design the systems that supply this equipment now, my motor control experience is limited, especially noting the last time I worked on control systems was almost 30 years ago. If you don't use it, you lose it.