BP-51 questions (1 Viewer)

[KLF]

I searched all the threads on this setup, but can't find answers to these (hopefully easy) questions.

I bought a complete kit from Eric Seargant (Ed Martin) and I'm now preparing for the install. I also ended up sourcing a set of ARB UCAs on Amazon, of all places. Nobody else has this stuff in stock. Rear springs are 2722s.

Questions that I have so far:

* one of the springs in the set is slightly taller than the other, and I see that even the OEM springs have different part numbers. I did find one place that said that the taller spring should go on the gas tank (passenger) side. Correct?

* do I need to change the preload on the front struts? The docs say they are set (20mm gap) for having a bullbar and winch installed. I don't have a front bumper yet, but plan on that next Spring, assuming they become available, looking hard at the TJM as my favorite. I do have dual batteries, if that matters. Do folks with stock bumpers just install and go as is? Seems a pain to find a spring compressor to make any change.

* the docs that came in the fit kit for the rear as printed very small, and they got kinda chewed up on the box. They are pretty much unreadable, especially with my old eyes. Does anybody have this doc in PDF format?

* from the tiny print I can barely make out, it looks to me like they shipped the rear shocks with the incorrect washers. I see 3 "flat" washers and one "hat" washer (they call it a "locating" washer) in the diagram. But, I got two flats and two hats on each shock. Should I call ARB and get the correct washers? The nut also fell off one of the shocks in shipment and one of the flat washers escaped the box which got ripped open. Maybe I can use the old washers?

* recommendation for initial C/R settings? I do have drawers in the back that are kinda full all the time, and an RLC rear bumper.

Thank you! Really looking forward to getting this installed!

 

[John Guedry]

The way I did it With the taller spring is I compared the stock ones (one is taller) and put the taller one where the stock was taller.

 

[Markuson]

I searched all the threads on this setup, but can't find answers to these (hopefully easy) questions.

I bought a complete kit from Eric Seargant (Ed Martin) and I'm now preparing for the install. I also ended up sourcing a set of ARB UCAs on Amazon, of all places. Nobody else has this stuff in stock. Rear springs are 2722s.

Questions that I have so far:

* one of the springs in the set is slightly taller than the other, and I see that even the OEM springs have different part numbers. I did find one place that said that the taller spring should go on the gas tank (passenger) side. Correct?

* do I need to change the preload on the front struts? The docs say they are set (20mm gap) for having a bullbar and winch installed. I don't have a front bumper yet, but plan on that next Spring, assuming they become available, looking hard at the TJM as my favorite. I do have dual batteries, if that matters. Do folks with stock bumpers just install and go as is? Seems a pain to find a spring compressor to make any change.

* the docs that came in the fit kit for the rear as printed very small, and they got kinda chewed up on the box. They are pretty much unreadable, especially with my old eyes. Does anybody have this doc in PDF format?

* from the tiny print I can barely make out, it looks to me like they shipped the rear shocks with the incorrect washers. I see 3 "flat" washers and one "hat" washer (they call it a "locating" washer) in the diagram. But, I got two flats and two hats on each shock. Should I call ARB and get the correct washers? The nut also fell off one of the shocks in shipment and one of the flat washers escaped the box which got ripped open. Maybe I can use the old washers?

View attachment 2786505

* recommendation for initial C/R settings? I do have drawers in the back that are kinda full all the time, and an RLC rear bumper.

Thank you! Really looking forward to getting this installed!

Taller coil spring for US version goes on PASSENGER... Right rear.

 

[kcjaz]

I think you will pretty high in the front and you may not like the ride at 20mm preload with stock front bumper. It’s also a bit of a pain to pull them out, adjust and then reinstall later when you add the bumper but they are adjustable for a reason. Maybe you can live with 20mm until the spring when you add the bumper. I’m at 20 mm with a TJM bumper and like the height. I added a winch a year later and I didn’t really notice much difference. I have 2721s on the rear and added 30mm spacers to make it look right with the front. “Right” to me was a slight rake when empty.

 

[bloc]

* from the tiny print I can barely make out, it looks to me like they shipped the rear shocks with the incorrect washers. I see 3 "flat" washers and one "hat" washer (they call it a "locating" washer) in the diagram. But, I got two flats and two hats on each shock. Should I call ARB and get the correct washers? The nut also fell off one of the shocks in shipment and one of the flat washers escaped the box which got ripped open. Maybe I can use the old washers?

You definitely want to get the locating washer situation sorted out. Should only be one on each shock. Otherwise there is too much of a gap between the washer faces once the locating sleeves make contact, and you'll get significant clunking/rattling as the washers flop around on your sub frame.

 

[lrowe_csp]

I ran with the factory preload and stock bumper for 6 months before adding a winch and winch mount. It was livable and should be okay if you are sure you will add the winch bumper and winch. Mine sits just right now with the extra weight up front and your dual batteries will help push the front down a little. You can also soften up the compression and rebound after you get them mounted.

 

[KLF]

Thanks all for the responses, very helpful. Unfortunately I have too many projects to get finished up before the cold weather, and with no heated garage... I'm having a local indy shop that I trust do the install. He's done a lot of lift kits, and is a former Toyota dealer tech, but he's never worked with this particular setup. So I'm feeding him info, truck goes to him in 2 weeks.

I mentioned about making sure to torque the LCA bushings with the truck on the ground. He says what he usually does is lower the lift so it's fully on the ground, then crawls under and raps them tight with the impact to set the pre-load. Then he raises it back up to do the final torque. Seems OK to me, but I thought I'd check.

If he has a spring compressor, I will have him back off on the preload on the fronts a little, maybe mid-way.

He is concerned that he will have to torch off the tops of the rear shocks, so he's asked me to order up all new washers to make sure there is no hold up on the install. Anything else I should get? The front end has already been apart when I had Budbuilt install the spacers ~18 months ago, so nothing should be rusted/seized. Rob anti-siezed everything as it went back together.

 

[DesmoPilot]

I have ARB Summit with Warn Zeon 12S Platinum. I installed with the factory set 20mm preload and was not happy at all. It had almost no down travel and the front rebounded to quickly(even with rebound set high). I recently pulled the coilovers back out and adjusted the preload to around 12-13mm. The ride, ability to align and down travel all improved drastically. Of course this is my own personal experience.

FWIW, pulling them back out this time was so much easier than the initial install. I did not disconnect swaybars, lower ball joint or loosen LCA this time. So much easier and quicker.

 

[Zsolt]

You definitely want to get the locating washer situation sorted out. Should only be one on each shock. Otherwise there is too much of a gap between the washer faces once the locating sleeves make contact, and you'll get significant clunking/rattling as the washers flop around on your sub frame.

I had terrible rattling so be careful that the right washers used, I had to put 2 flat washers on top.

 

[KLF]

I had terrible rattling so be careful that the right washers used, I had to put 2 flat washers on top.

OK, this makes total sense. The parts guy (Jake) at Ed Martin mentioned using one of the original washers on the top, but we wasn't sure on what to do about the others.

Geez you'd think that ARB/OME would figure out that they are sending these out with the wrong washers. Maybe I'll give them a call.

 

[Zsolt]

OK, this makes total sense. The parts guy (Jake) at Ed Martin mentioned using one of the original washers on the top, but we wasn't sure on what to do about the others.

Geez you'd think that ARB/OME would figure out that they are sending these out with the wrong washers. Maybe I'll give them a call.

I used the original suspension washers on the upper bushing plus added one extra washer bellow the nut,
My set up front 20mm preload=double battery and winch
rear 2123 spring. -rear drawer and roof top tent. It works fine

 

[duggy]

We reported this issue to ARB a couple of years ago. Only one of the locating washers should be used to place the shock in the frame. We have ground down the locating portion of one of the washers to give it enough gap in between the frame and shock bushings so it can be properly cinched down. The small washer should be used to space the nut so you can properly torque it.

Tell Jesus I said hi!

 

[KLF]

OK, 2 weeks later, system is installed as of today. Brought it home this evening, haven't been to the alignment place yet, appointment tomorrow at noon. Only driven about 10 miles so far. More questions:

* Here's my before and after measurements, bottom lip of fender to floor, center of wheel, level floor:
Before, factory untouched suspension:

	Left (Driver's Side)	Right (Pass Side)
Front	34-3/4"	35-1/4"
Rear	34-1/4"	35-1/2"

After, BP-51 system, 2722 rear springs. Front coils left at factory pre-load. D/R settings on shocks not changed yet from factory.

	Left (Driver's Side)	Right (Pass Side)
Front	37-1/4" (+2-1/2")	38-1/4" (+3")
Rear	37-1/4" (+3")	38-3/4" (+3-1/4")

Apparently I wasn't sitting level even before touching anything, ~1-1/4" difference in the rear. But now it's grown to ~1-1/2" difference. Now that I know, I can't not see it. Should I worry about this much difference? Installer assured me that he 1) opened the KDSS bleeders before starting anything, then closed them after putting it back on it's feet and bouncing on it some, and 2) he installed the rear springs in the correct position.

Lift is a little more than I expected, but I expect putting some miles on it will get the springs to settle some, hopefully about an inch. Is this correct?

Now that it's sitting in my garage, I can easily see that the front camber on both wheels is waaaay out, tops of the tires are tilting in. That would explain the tight steering. No idea on the toe-in.

But... the ride is MUCH MUCH MUCH improved. Even with the alignment whacked. It just eats up bumps, but feels very firm and planted.

Installer (local indy shop) commented that this is the nicest suspension stuff he's every seen. He could tell this was top-shelf stuff.

 

[empty80]

OK, 2 weeks later, system is installed as of today. Brought it home this evening, haven't been to the alignment place yet, appointment tomorrow at noon. Only driven about 10 miles so far. More questions:

* Here's my before and after measurements, bottom lip of fender to floor, center of wheel, level floor:
Before, factory untouched suspension:

	Left (Driver's Side)	Right (Pass Side)
Front	34-3/4"	35-1/4"
Rear	34-1/4"	35-1/2"

After, BP-51 system, 2722 rear springs. Front coils left at factory pre-load. D/R settings on shocks not changed yet from factory.

	Left (Driver's Side)	Right (Pass Side)
Front	37-1/4" (+2-1/2")	38-1/4" (+3")
Rear	37-1/4" (+3")	38-3/4" (+3-1/4")

Apparently I wasn't sitting level even before touching anything, ~1-1/4" difference in the rear. But now it's grown to ~1-1/2" difference. Now that I know, I can't not see it. Should I worry about this much difference? Installer assured me that he 1) opened the KDSS bleeders before starting anything, then closed them after putting it back on it's feet and bouncing on it some, and 2) he installed the rear springs in the correct position.

Lift is a little more than I expected, but I expect putting some miles on it will get the springs to settle some, hopefully about an inch. Is this correct?

Now that it's sitting in my garage, I can easily see that the front camber on both wheels is waaaay out, tops of the tires are tilting in. That would explain the tight steering. No idea on the toe-in.

But... the ride is MUCH MUCH MUCH improved. Even with the alignment whacked. It just eats up bumps, but feels very firm and planted.

Installer (local indy shop) commented that this is the nicest suspension stuff he's every seen. He could tell this was top-shelf stuff.

To pretty decent results, I’ve opened the KDSS valves and let the truck rest for an extended period time, typically overnight. My assumption is that because it’s an equilibrium system, it should balance itself out.

I think that is in spirit with the opening the valves, raise the truck, sit of back down and wait 20 minutes. This is just the quicker way of equalizing.

The overnight method has balanced my truck every time with no imbalance to anti-roll response.

 

[82SC]

Project 200 has a YouTube video covering kdss lean. He even goes thru a procedure to drive up on a couple 4x4 to force the system to adjust.

Factory accepts I think up to an inch as acceptable

 

[bloc]

Project 200 has a YouTube video covering kdss lean. He even goes thru a procedure to drive up on a couple 4x4 to force the system to adjust.

Factory accepts I think up to an inch as acceptable

The 4x4 method is not a fix, it is a bandaid. It loads the hydraulics of the KDSS system in a way it wasn’t intended to use the sway bars to level a vehicle that has other issues.

 

[linuxgod]

OK, 2 weeks later, system is installed as of today. Brought it home this evening, haven't been to the alignment place yet, appointment tomorrow at noon. Only driven about 10 miles so far. More questions:

* Here's my before and after measurements, bottom lip of fender to floor, center of wheel, level floor:
Before, factory untouched suspension:

	Left (Driver's Side)	Right (Pass Side)
Front	34-3/4"	35-1/4"
Rear	34-1/4"	35-1/2"

After, BP-51 system, 2722 rear springs. Front coils left at factory pre-load. D/R settings on shocks not changed yet from factory.

	Left (Driver's Side)	Right (Pass Side)
Front	37-1/4" (+2-1/2")	38-1/4" (+3")
Rear	37-1/4" (+3")	38-3/4" (+3-1/4")

Apparently I wasn't sitting level even before touching anything, ~1-1/4" difference in the rear. But now it's grown to ~1-1/2" difference. Now that I know, I can't not see it. Should I worry about this much difference? Installer assured me that he 1) opened the KDSS bleeders before starting anything, then closed them after putting it back on it's feet and bouncing on it some, and 2) he installed the rear springs in the correct position.

Lift is a little more than I expected, but I expect putting some miles on it will get the springs to settle some, hopefully about an inch. Is this correct?

Now that it's sitting in my garage, I can easily see that the front camber on both wheels is waaaay out, tops of the tires are tilting in. That would explain the tight steering. No idea on the toe-in.

But... the ride is MUCH MUCH MUCH improved. Even with the alignment whacked. It just eats up bumps, but feels very firm and planted.

Installer (local indy shop) commented that this is the nicest suspension stuff he's every seen. He could tell this was top-shelf stuff.

~3" of lift is quite a bit. The springs will settle a bit as they break in, though probably not that much - maybe 1/4" to 1/2". If you're still more than an inch off in 1000 miles, get some trim packers and add them to the driver's side rear until the rear is level. The FSM says you shouldn't have more than ~1/2" of lean. In my experience if you level the rear, the front will fix itself.

 

[KLF]

The 4x4 method is not a fix, it is a bandaid. It loads the hydraulics of the KDSS system in a way it wasn’t intended to use the sway bars to level a vehicle that has other issues.

Hmmm... interesting. So how SHOULD the lean be fixed? Spacer on the spring?

Question on the OME UCAs. I am not understanding why they allow more adjustment on the alignment. I'm concerned with the clearly visible off camber of the front wheels now. If I put a 24" level on the tire, it's way off plumb, like about 1/2" at the top. How do these arms work to help fix this? It doesn't look like the ball joint can be moved in the arm.

 

[linuxgod]

Hmmm... interesting. So how SHOULD the lean be fixed? Spacer on the spring?

Question on the OME UCAs. I am not understanding why they allow more adjustment on the alignment. I'm concerned with the clearly visible off camber of the front wheels now. If I put a 24" level on the tire, it's way off plumb, like about 1/2" at the top. How do these arms work to help fix this? It doesn't look like the ball joint can be moved in the arm.

To do an alignment they set caster, then camber, then toe. Your camber is off (which is easy to see), but your caster is probably also off. As they move caster, camber will adjust too. Then they will be able to fine-tune camber from there.

Neutral or a very small amount of negative camber may help your setup. I know the Toyota factory alignment says you should have positive camber, but I've found while that helps make the steering feel light it can also make a lifted truck feel a bit squirrelly.

 

[KLF]

To do an alignment they set caster, then camber, then toe. Your camber is off (which is easy to see), but your caster is probably also off. As they move caster, camber will adjust too. Then they will be able to fine-tune camber from there.

Neutral or a very small amount of negative camber may help your setup. I know the Toyota factory alignment says you should have positive camber, but I've found while that helps make the steering feel light it can also make a lifted truck feel a bit squirrelly.

So I just went out and used my electronic level and I measure about 2.5deg of negative camber both sides. Tried to get a picture but it just won't show. Doesn't seem like the adjusters will have the much travel, but I'm no expert on this for sure. I'll have a chat with the tech at shop this afternoon, explain what's going on and see if he'll show me how it works. Thanks.