BP-51 questions

[linuxgod]

I don't have much to go on except this chart which somehow shows how front and rear cam adjustments impact caster and camber values. I agree -2.5 degrees would seem like an awful lot, especially for the amount of lift you achieved I would expect caster but I'd expect camber to increase (more positive) since by lifting the front end you're effectively moving from a neutral suspension position to one where the suspension is extended a bit into the arc of travel.

 

[timmysurf]

definitely remeasure height at each corner once you have properly aligned, I know that affected mine before

 

[bloc]

Hmmm... interesting. So how SHOULD the lean be fixed? Spacer on the spring?

Question on the OME UCAs. I am not understanding why they allow more adjustment on the alignment. I'm concerned with the clearly visible off camber of the front wheels now. If I put a 24" level on the tire, it's way off plumb, like about 1/2" at the top. How do these arms work to help fix this? It doesn't look like the ball joint can be moved in the arm.

Yes spacers or if your suspension has them adjustable coil overs should be used to level the rig, then the KDSS screws set. Literally pushing an otherwise unlevel rig level with the sway bars and KDSS puts forces on the system it wasn’t designed for.. or at least not for those timeframes. And if you check my KDSS anatomy thread you’ll see it may lock out some self-balancing function within the system.

@linuxgod is doing a good job helping you with alignment, but I did have one thing to add.

The arb arms aren’t adjustable themselves, they simply move the upper ball joint position so that they return the wheel alignment closer to factory specs with the common amount of lift we run. This is necessary because the camber and caster change with suspension travel. This means there is in effect an upper limit to how much we can lift the vehicle and get an ideal alignment with arb or other static arms (depending on how much they alter bj position from stock) .. spc with adjustable upper ball joints addresses this, but most people don’t lift high enough to truly need that function. Some do want the adjustability at the top, but as stated IMO it can come with other sacrifices.

 

[KLF]

Yes spacers or if your suspension has them adjustable coil overs should be used to level the rig, then the KDSS screws set. Literally pushing an otherwise unlevel rig level with the sway bars and KDSS puts forces on the system it wasn’t designed for.. or at least not for those timeframes. And if you check my KDSS anatomy thread you’ll see it may lock out some self-balancing function within the system.

@linuxgod is doing a good job helping you with alignment, but I did have one thing to add.

The arb arms aren’t adjustable themselves, they simply move the upper ball joint position so that they return the wheel alignment closer to factory specs with the common amount of lift we run. This is necessary because the camber and caster change with suspension travel. This means there is in effect an upper limit to how much we can lift the vehicle and get an ideal alignment with arb or other static arms (depending on how much they alter bj position from stock) .. spc with adjustable upper ball joints addresses this, but most people don’t lift high enough to truly need that function. Some do want the adjustability at the top, but as stated IMO it can come with other sacrifices.

Ok thank you that is useful info.

I just left the alignment shop, now stopping to get some lunch. Tech had no trouble getting it to spec, I'll post a pic later of the printout. Steering is much improved, but still feels "heavy". Not bad heavy, just different. It really wants to stay going straight. Truck drives laser straight, wheel is centered.

Gonna find some bumpy roads this afternoon, then measure heights again when I get home.

 

[linuxgod]

Ok thank you that is useful info.

I just left the alignment shop, now stopping to get some lunch. Tech had no trouble getting it to spec, I'll post a pic later of the printout. Steering is much improved, but still feels "heavy". Not bad heavy, just different. It really wants to stay going straight. Truck drives laser straight, wheel is centered.

Gonna find some bumpy roads this afternoon, then measure heights again when I get home.

High caster, negative camber, and lots of toe-in can cause that. Will be interested to see your specs

 

[KLF]

Found a bunch of bumpy country roads yesterday afternoon, did about 150 miles. It's astounding how solid the truck feels on rutted washboard unpaved roads. It just eats up the bumps.

Got home, measured heights again, and crazy... the truck got ~1/4" TALLER. Rear lean is less pronounced, less than an inch difference now. I'm just gonna drive it, probably mess with it in the spring since I have too many other projects to get done.

Here's the before and after alignment readings:

One area of concern is the reservoir hoses on the front struts. Both sides are sitting against the tops of the springs, see below. We tried all sorts of positions with the reservoir, trying to get it just to not touch, but it's a no-go. The banjo fitting for the hose at the shock swivels and can't be tightened in a fixed position. Is there a solution to this? I think I'm gonna wrap a piece of inner tube around it with a ziptie to protect it from abrasion/rubbing.

I degreased and pressure washed everything before delivering it to the shop for the install, so I took this opportunity while it was all clean before the annual oiling spray in a couple weeks, to paint all the exposed parts (Rustoleum Satin Black), especially where rust had started. Gotta keep my "Frame Waxer" reputation intact (Bud @ BudBuilt gave me that label). Not bad for ~80K New England miles. Oiling works!

 

[KLF]

To pretty decent results, I’ve opened the KDSS valves and let the truck rest for an extended period time, typically overnight. My assumption is that because it’s an equilibrium system, it should balance itself out.

The overnight method has balanced my truck every time with no imbalance to anti-roll response.

Tried this last night. Made no difference whatsoever. Truck is still leaning.

I'm not pleased that the truck is higher than I thought it would be, by about an inch. So, I don't want to use spacers to get it level, as that will make it even taller.

Here's how I fixed the rubbing of the front shock hose on the top of the spring. A piece of old conveyer belt, wrapped around the hose, held with zipties. I'll check it in about 6 weeks when I swap to the winter tires, and keep an eye on it.

 

[empty80]

Tried this last night. Made no difference whatsoever. Truck is still leaning.

I'm not pleased that the truck is higher than I thought it would be, by about an inch. So, I don't want to use spacers to get it level, as that will make it even taller.

Here's how I fixed the rubbing of the front shock hose on the top of the spring. A piece of old conveyer belt, wrapped around the hose, held with zipties. I'll check it in about 6 weeks when I swap to the winter tires, and keep an eye on it.
View attachment 2802881

Do you have access to a two-point lift? You may have to do the FSM procedure. IIRC it is, 1) Open the valves, 2) raise truck so all corners fully extend, 3) sit truck back on the ground, 4) wait 20-30 minutes, 5) close valves.

If you’re not sure if you’re getting the valves open, you can raised the truck so all four corners are barely off the ground, open both valves 2.5 turns. If they open the tires will droop and contact the ground. If they don’t droop, you can try 1/4 turn at a time on both valves, but don’t exceed 4, 1/4 turns without consulting the FSM.

My valves open just before 3 full turns. I have an 8mm socket that is marked for KDSS duty, so I can can count the turns.

 

[KLF]

Do you have access to a two-point lift? You may have to do the FSM procedure. IIRC it is, 1) Open the valves, 2) raise truck so all corners fully extend, 3) sit truck back on the ground, 4) wait 20-30 minutes, 5) close valves.

If you’re not sure if you’re getting the valves open, you can raised the truck so all four corners are barely off the ground, open both valves 2.5 turns. If they open the tires will droop and contact the ground. If they don’t droop, you can try 1/4 turn at a time on both valves, but don’t exceed 4, 1/4 turns without consulting the FSM.

My valves open just before 3 full turns. I have an 8mm socket that is marked for KDSS duty, so I can can count the turns.

I have a QuickJack, so yes I can easily get it fully up in the air. I want to go up a click on the dampening on the shocks anyway, so I'll give this a try. I only opened the bleeders 2.5 turns, so who knows... maybe not quite enough. I put a tape flag on an extension to count. Thanks.

 

[KLF]

Do you have access to a two-point lift? You may have to do the FSM procedure. IIRC it is, 1) Open the valves, 2) raise truck so all corners fully extend, 3) sit truck back on the ground, 4) wait 20-30 minutes, 5) close valves.

If you’re not sure if you’re getting the valves open, you can raised the truck so all four corners are barely off the ground, open both valves 2.5 turns. If they open the tires will droop and contact the ground. If they don’t droop, you can try 1/4 turn at a time on both valves, but don’t exceed 4, 1/4 turns without consulting the FSM.

My valves open just before 3 full turns. I have an 8mm socket that is marked for KDSS duty, so I can can count the turns.

Finally had some time today to work on this.

Lifted the truck up till the tires were just barely touching, then started opening the bleeder screws. Got to 3-1/4 turns and stopped, nothing happened. Not crazy about opening them any more than that. Let it sit up in the air all afternoon, then put it back down. No difference in the lean whatsoever. Still ~1-1/2" difference (RR is highest).

So, just for S&G, I opened the bleeders again, then jacked up the rear axle on the RR side, slid a couple scraps of 2x12's under the tire, then set it down. Let it sit like this for over an hour. Tightened the bleeders, then took it for a "spirited" drive on some windy roads. Back home, NO DIFFERENCE. Still leans.

I'm beginning to think the bleeders are not bleeding. Seems like the system is not equalizing. Pretty frustrated.

 

[empty80]

Finally had some time today to work on this.

Lifted the truck up till the tires were just barely touching, then started opening the bleeder screws. Got to 3-1/4 turns and stopped, nothing happened. Not crazy about opening them any more than that. Let it sit up in the air all afternoon, then put it back down. No difference in the lean whatsoever. Still ~1-1/2" difference (RR is highest).

So, just for S&G, I opened the bleeders again, then jacked up the rear axle on the RR side, slid a couple scraps of 2x12's under the tire, then set it down. Let it sit like this for over an hour. Tightened the bleeders, then took it for a "spirited" drive on some windy roads. Back home, NO DIFFERENCE. Still leans.

I'm beginning to think the bleeders are not bleeding. Seems like the system is not equalizing. Pretty frustrated.

That’s unfortunate. The only other thing I’d would recommend is using a small jack to manually manipulate the arm to make sure it isn’t bound.

 

[bloc]

Finally had some time today to work on this.

Lifted the truck up till the tires were just barely touching, then started opening the bleeder screws. Got to 3-1/4 turns and stopped, nothing happened. Not crazy about opening them any more than that. Let it sit up in the air all afternoon, then put it back down. No difference in the lean whatsoever. Still ~1-1/2" difference (RR is highest).

So, just for S&G, I opened the bleeders again, then jacked up the rear axle on the RR side, slid a couple scraps of 2x12's under the tire, then set it down. Let it sit like this for over an hour. Tightened the bleeders, then took it for a "spirited" drive on some windy roads. Back home, NO DIFFERENCE. Still leans.

I'm beginning to think the bleeders are not bleeding. Seems like the system is not equalizing. Pretty frustrated.

Cruisers have been leaning since time immemorial. My contention is that most "kdss lean" is actually "spring/bushing lean" that people attribute to KDSS because it is a seemingly complex system that they can blame the issue on.

Also I'm 99.9% sure they are bleeding. Check the KDSS anatomy thread. If you open BOTH those screws even a half turn you are mechanically opening a hydraulic circuit. There isn't any check ball or anything else that has to move. Just the tip of the screw moving away from the tapered seat that seals the orifice. 3.25 turns out (you should only go 3) is making a large gap and there is no way it isn't balancing pressures in that condition.

Personally I'd drive it for a while to let the springs and shocks settle in, then address any remaining lean with your adjustable spring perches in front or trim packers in rear.

 

[KLF]

Cruisers have been leaning since time immemorial. My contention is that most "kdss lean" is actually "spring/bushing lean" that people attribute to KDSS because it is a seemingly complex system that they can blame the issue on.

Also I'm 99.9% sure they are bleeding. Check the KDSS anatomy thread. If you open BOTH those screws even a half turn you are mechanically opening a hydraulic circuit. There isn't any check ball or anything else that has to move. Just the tip of the screw moving away from the tapered seat that seals the orifice. 3.25 turns out (you should only go 3) is making a large gap and there is no way it isn't balancing pressures in that condition.

Personally I'd drive it for a while to let the springs and shocks settle in, then address any remaining lean with your adjustable spring perches in front or trim packers in rear.

I suppose you are correct, I also find it hard to believe that the fluid is not equalizing. I'm done messing with it for now, I need to move on, but it's gonna bother me until I get it sorted. I will take a look at that arm to make sure it's not binding. Really don't want to resort to spacers or packers, truck is higher than I want it now.

It bothers me to pay for a premium suspension system, then have it sit crooked. It's likely the rear springs. Thanks.

 

[linuxgod]

I suppose you are correct, I also find it hard to believe that the fluid is not equalizing. I'm done messing with it for now, I need to move on, but it's gonna bother me until I get it sorted. I will take a look at that arm to make sure it's not binding. Really don't want to resort to spacers or packers, truck is higher than I want it now.

It bothers me to pay for a premium suspension system, then have it sit crooked. It's likely the rear springs. Thanks.

Here's how you can tell if the KDSS valve works. Note this is terribly unsafe

1. Set parking brake
2. Jack up the front wheels and support with jack stands
3. Loosen KDSS valves

When you do #3, the vehicle will shift on the jack stands after ~1 to 1.5 turns. Hopefully it doesn't fall off the jack stands when this happens.

Note: I've (stupidly) done the above once when I neglected to open the KDSS valves while the truck was on the ground. So I know when you do the above what happens. I don't actually recommend doing this however as the truck could fall off the stands.

That said, I'm pretty sure your issue is that you need a trim packer in the rear to level out the rear height. I've read enough suspension threads to see that vehicle heights will vary slightly. Heck I've even seen people with the identical suspension I have end up swapping rear springs into different positions (taller on the "wrong"/driver's side) to get their vehicle level.

 

[TLC2013]

I agree with @linuxgod. He's spot on. After messing with every kdss trick known to man I added trim packers but with minimal results. I couldnt get my lean below 3/4" . Frustrating to say the least as my lean was to the opposite side that most others experience. I ultimately swapped rear springs ( so the taller spring is on the driver side). This leveled things out perfectly with my Tough Dog lift kit.

@empty80 I am going to look into replacing the bushing in that arm you mentioned which could possibly be bound. Mine looks much more worn and degraged. I wonder if that area is known for causing a rear lean or inbalance with a worn bushing.

 

[linuxgod]

I agree with @linuxgod. He's spot on. After messing with every kdss trick known to man I added trim packers but with minimal results. I couldnt get my lean below 3/4" . Frustrating to say the least as my lean was to the opposite side that most others experience. I ultimately swapped rear springs ( so the taller spring is on the driver side). This leveled things out perfectly with my Tough Dog lift kit.

Yeah I remember your setup. I would've sworn you were wrong to put the taller spring on the driver's side, but WTF do I know?!?! I started with the taller spring on the driver's side and I was a full 1.5" taller on the left. My front also leaned and my alignment sucked (very low caster). Swapping the tall spring to the passenger's side got mine to within 0.5" (actually better, IIRC), front lean went away, and my alignment was better (caster was more positive).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[bloc]

I agree with @linuxgod. He's spot on. After messing with every kdss trick known to man I added trim packers but with minimal results. I couldnt get my lean below 3/4" . Frustrating to say the least as my lean was to the opposite side that most others experience. I ultimately swapped rear springs ( so the taller spring is on the driver side). This leveled things out perfectly with my Tough Dog lift kit.

@empty80 I am going to look into replacing the bushing in that arm you mentioned which could possibly be bound. Mine looks much more worn and degraged. I wonder if that area is know for causing a rear lean or inbalance with a worn bushing.

I bought these bushings and have them sitting on a shelf.. mine look cracked though there doesn't seem to be a ton of play. Not sure when I'll get around to installing.. this job is in the list of stuff to do and document for the board. But need more time.

Point is if you need the part numbers I can dig them up easily.

 

[TLC2013]

@bloc that would be great. I havent been able to find the part number for just the bushing in this image. I came across part 48830-60050 which is for the whole stanilizer link assmebly but has an MSRP of +$400 yikes

 

[residualboulders]

Yeah I remember your setup. I would've sworn you were wrong to put the taller spring on the driver's side, but WTF do I know?!?! I started with the taller spring on the driver's side and I was a full 1.5" taller on the left. My front also leaned and my alignment sucked (very low caster). Swapping the tall spring to the passenger's side got mine to within 0.5" (actually better, IIRC), front lean went away, and my alignment was better (caster was more positive).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I had my BP51 Lift installed a few months ago. The rig leaned soon as they took it off the lift. I called ARB and Cruiser Outfitters (where i bought the BP51) and they both told me to just drive it around for a month or two and it (KDSS) would level itself out. It's been 3 months and it still sits about 1 1/4" lower on the drivers side. It's been offroad quite a bit in rutty rough roads, loaded up with gear on road trips etc. No change. I have been reading up on what to do. I have not tried a opening the kdss valves yet. I had it in for it scheduled service the other day and the toyota tech told me "no way, that absolutely will not fix the issue". But others on the forum seem to have had success with that. Looks like the lift was installed with rear spring labeled A on the passenger side. From what you said previously in another post that should be correct, right? But I wonder if I should swap them side to side and see if that lean is eliminated. Might make it worse.

Ironically I also have a 1979 fj40 and 1979 fj55 both of which had a lean of over 1 1/4" - drivers side lower. I finally fixed the fj55. After 20 years of trying different things on my 40, I finally had some custom springs built for it and the lean is down to about 1/4" which I can live with. For some reason my 60 didn't lean before new OME springs, and does not after. Finally after all these years all 4 of my cruisers didn't have a lean!!

but then I lifted the 200... the last one I expected to have a lean. So I'm back to trying to eliminate a lean again.

 

[TLC2013]

Yeah I remember your setup. I would've sworn you were wrong to put the taller spring on the driver's side, but WTF do I know?!?! I started with the taller spring on the driver's side and I was a full 1.5" taller on the left. My front also leaned and my alignment sucked (very low caster). Swapping the tall spring to the passenger's side got mine to within 0.5" (actually better, IIRC), front lean went away, and my alignment was better (caster was more positive).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The whole kdss suspension lean discussion makes my head hurt haha. No rhyme or reason but I am leaning toward it being a worn bushing/component issue as has been mentioned here by those more knowlegable then me on the subject. I was just happy to finally level things out with a simple spring swap.... This discussion of a worn stabilizer bushing makes me cringe, time to go down the rabbit hole once again.